HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

New York Post: Flyers taking run at Max Pacioretty

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #76
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 6,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banger View Post
brilliant...the Flyers have the worst and most expensive defense in the league and instead of trying to improve that OBVIOUS deficiency lets trade our few tradeable assets for another forward......makes perfect sense....
I do not think it is anywhere near the worst. It is more 'middling'. I actually think in their own zone they usually do a good job... transition is still a problem, but Streit, Kimmo and Gus giving each pair a puck mover and Coburn playing so well have negated that slightly.

16th in GA/G (2.73) 17th in SA/G (30.1) and 11th best PK (82.8%).

Not only are they in the middle of the league for those categories, but the figures themselves are almost bang on league averages for the last 3 years.

I do think our third line helps pad the stats slightly though... they have been doing a great job of shutting down opposition 1st line, who usually account for ~40+% of offence.

And as for goaltending padding stats... our goalies combined are at .909SV%.

The average is .912-914SV% in the last few years...


Last edited by Appleyard: 12-24-2013 at 01:32 PM.
Appleyard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 01:33 PM
  #77
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
Pacioretty is a 30 goal scorer and 60 point plus winger while be stapled to might mite Desharnais and whoever else Therrien throws on his wing. Sometimes it is Gallagher, which is great, but otherwise it is washed up players like Briere or Gionta. Pacioretty on a line with Giroux and Voracek would be deadly. MP is one of the most prolific shooters in the league and has finish. I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that MP would quite easily be a 40 goal scoring 70 point player with G. Plus he is only 25 and locked up with a sweet contract for years.

If the price is high, I'd still pay it.


Last edited by Nash: 12-24-2013 at 01:45 PM.
Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 01:42 PM
  #78
jabba2
Just say no to Clowe
 
jabba2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 510
vCash: 500
Give them Read/Schenn and Hartnell.

jabba2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 01:46 PM
  #79
4thline4life
The Mased God
 
4thline4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: n philly
Posts: 2,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I do not think it is anywhere near the worst. It is more 'middling'. I actually think in their own zone they usually do a good job... transition is still a problem, but Streit, Kimmo and Gus giving each pair a puck mover and Coburn playing so well have negated that slightly.

16th in GA/G (2.73) 17th in SA/G (30.1) and 11th best PK (82.8%).

Not only are they in the middle of the league for those categories, but the figures themselves are almost bang on league averages for the last 3 years.

I do think our third line helps pad the stats slightly though... they have been doing a great job of shutting down opposition 1st line, who usually account for ~40+% of offence.

And as for goaltending padding stats... our goalies combined are at .909SV%.

The average is .912-914SV% in the last few years...
I think mason is padding their stats a bit but it's evened out by how awful emery has been. .885 sv pct is bryz bad. The only reason team GAA is below average is solely because emery, in his limited starts, has gotten lit up every game besides 2. If emery was even average as a back up (.900-.905 sv pct) the team GAA would be a bit above average.

4thline4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:15 PM
  #80
onlylordsvsmorebp
Registered User
 
onlylordsvsmorebp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 546
vCash: 500
dont trade morin.that is all.

onlylordsvsmorebp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:16 PM
  #81
BrindamoursNose
Registered User
 
BrindamoursNose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
Give them Read/Schenn and Hartnell.
I'd rather give up Schenn than Read. Read is a cup-winning guy I think. Like Sharp.

BrindamoursNose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:28 PM
  #82
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlylordsvsmorebp View Post
dont trade morin.that is all.
Why does the fan base have such a hard on for this guy. Other than organizational need, I don't get it. He isn't exactly setting the Q on fire and is years away from having any type of NHL impact. If he could be a key part in getting a proven 30 goal scoring, top shooting, first line winger at 25 years old locked up on a cheap contract, I wouldn't even hesitate. I know at HF, we all see potential first and production second, but Pacioretty is a given commodity.

The Flyers has an abundance of forwards to trade for a defenseman and there is always free agency. I just don't understand the mentality of "this guy could be a top pairing D" vs "this guy IS a first line winger", especially since the window to impact for Morin is so far away.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:30 PM
  #83
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,678
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I'd rather give up Schenn than Read. Read is a cup-winning guy I think. Like Sharp.
I agree with this, though I don't expect many others to. Read is as close to untouchable as I'd make a player who isn't actually (realistically) untouchable.

He just offers so much more value than he can fetch in a trade. Especially with his new contract. I expected him to price himself out this summer, so I was okay with shopping him this past draft, but it's great that he decided to stick around. No team would pass up the chance to have a glue guy like Read.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:35 PM
  #84
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Pacioretty is a 30 goal scorer and 60 point plus winger while be stapled to might mite Desharnais and whoever else Therrien throws on his wing. Sometimes it is Gallagher, which is great, but otherwise it is washed up players like Briere or Gionta. Pacioretty on a line with Giroux and Voracek would be deadly. MP is one of the most prolific shooters in the league and has finish. I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that MP would quite easily be a 40 goal scoring 70 point player with G. Plus he is only 25 and locked up with a sweet contract for years.

If the price is high, I'd still pay it.


Sure you would. How much for a cord of wood in north van?

PS Simmonds is a 28 goal scorer.


Last edited by Hockeypete49: 12-24-2013 at 02:43 PM.
Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:37 PM
  #85
MP92
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Pacioretty is a 30 goal scorer and 60 point plus winger while be stapled to might mite Desharnais and whoever else Therrien throws on his wing. Sometimes it is Gallagher, which is great, but otherwise it is washed up players like Briere or Gionta. Pacioretty on a line with Giroux and Voracek would be deadly. MP is one of the most prolific shooters in the league and has finish. I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that MP would quite easily be a 40 goal scoring 70 point player with G. Plus he is only 25 and locked up with a sweet contract for years.

If the price is high, I'd still pay it.
Im pretty sure Voracek would be going the other way to replace Max's spot in the lineup. So we would have 2/3 of an awesome 1st line, no Voracek, no 1st round draft pick and/or no Samuel Morin, all while we continue to watch our old and slow defenseman get even older and slower which results in holding back that awesome 1st line from cleanly and effectively breaking out of their our own zone as they have the rest of our team.

MP92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:40 PM
  #86
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,678
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Why does the fan base have such a hard on for this guy. Other than organizational need, I don't get it. He isn't exactly setting the Q on fire and is years away from having any type of NHL impact. If he could be a key part in getting a proven 30 goal scoring, top shooting, first line winger at 25 years old locked up on a cheap contract, I wouldn't even hesitate. I know at HF, we all see potential first and production second, but Pacioretty is a given commodity.

The Flyers has an abundance of forwards to trade for a defenseman and there is always free agency. I just don't understand the mentality of "this guy could be a top pairing D" vs "this guy IS a first line winger", especially since the window to impact for Morin is so far away.
Given the scarcity of true #1 defenders, sometimes it pays to take a low-percentage chance on a guy like Morin over a much safer play like Pacioretty,

You can find goal scorers in other ways. Very rarely do you find #1 guys outside the draft.

That doesn't mean Morin has more value than Pacioretty (far from it), but sometimes you just need to take the gamble because you're not going to trade for a #1 guy or find one in free agency.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:40 PM
  #87
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Why does the fan base have such a hard on for this guy. Other than organizational need, I don't get it. He isn't exactly setting the Q on fire and is years away from having any type of NHL impact. If he could be a key part in getting a proven 30 goal scoring, top shooting, first line winger at 25 years old locked up on a cheap contract, I wouldn't even hesitate. I know at HF, we all see potential first and production second, but Pacioretty is a given commodity.

The Flyers has an abundance of forwards to trade for a defenseman and there is always free agency. I just don't understand the mentality of "this guy could be a top pairing D" vs "this guy IS a first line winger", especially since the window to impact for Morin is so far away.
Well from a prospect depth POV I wouldnt deal Morin. Only in recent years have the Flyers gotten the idea that they finally need to build up the prospect pool which still is pretty piss poor depth wise but its getting better.
Now I also understand and agree that Morin is likey several years away from making it the NHL provided they dont rush him. But He is going to be an important guy to have around I would think. I am against dealing Morin,Hagg and Ghost. They need to hang onto these guys and develop them. correctly.
Dont get me wrong, I think Max would be a great fit this team, but I really dont think He is on the block and I really dont think the Flyers would pay the price which probably is really high.
Timonen is nearing the end, Meszaros is at the end and Streit will be likely in a couple of seasons. The Flyers need to hang onto their defenseman prospects. IMO

GoneFullHextall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:43 PM
  #88
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 6,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
I think mason is padding their stats a bit but it's evened out by how awful emery has been. .885 sv pct is bryz bad. The only reason team GAA is below average is solely because emery, in his limited starts, has gotten lit up every game besides 2. If emery was even average as a back up (.900-.905 sv pct) the team GAA would be a bit above average.
Yeh, Emery has evened it out in the games they have played with him in net... hence the Shots against and Goals against being pretty much in the same range.

Basically just saying that overall they have had ~average goal tending this year combined, (they are 17th in team SV% as well, in line with the SA and GA.) regardless of the fact that Mason was awesome in his first ~20 games. (he has been at .900 for his last 8.)

Appleyard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:48 PM
  #89
MP92
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Why does the fan base have such a hard on for this guy. Other than organizational need, I don't get it. He isn't exactly setting the Q on fire and is years away from having any type of NHL impact. If he could be a key part in getting a proven 30 goal scoring, top shooting, first line winger at 25 years old locked up on a cheap contract, I wouldn't even hesitate. I know at HF, we all see potential first and production second, but Pacioretty is a given commodity.

The Flyers has an abundance of forwards to trade for a defenseman and there is always free agency. I just don't understand the mentality of "this guy could be a top pairing D" vs "this guy IS a first line winger", especially since the window to impact for Morin is so far away.
The Flyers have given up picks/prospects for proven commodities before, and that philosophy has depleted our pipeline and come back to bite us. It's time to build this team the way successful clubs do, through draft picks and smart free agent signings/trades. A smart trade is not sacrificing that future for one great player while the rest of the team has multiple holes in t.

As for your idea of trading some of our forwards for a dman, we need a number 1 dman. Those are rarely ever traded. You need to draft one. Which is why Morin, Hagg, Ghost and our future 1st round draft picks should not be going anywhere.

MP92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:49 PM
  #90
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 14,061
vCash: 500
We are all really over valuing Pac's here. He isn't going to cost Schenn+Hartnell or anything like that. The deal would be centered around Schenn, and add some to it. The problem is what do you add to that, first rounder?? I'm not too sure about that. I understand everyone is saying overpayent!!! overpayment!!! ONLY OVERPYMENT!!! gets him out!! Thing is, he is popping up in rumors way too much. Somewhere along the lines management isn't all that pleased with him and would listen if the pieces are right coming back. This does not mean over payment, if they get an offer they feel is good for now and into the future, they will probably think about it. If we are giving up Schenn, there is no way Morin, Hagg, Ghost, Laughton follow him there, it would be a terrible trade.

Also, I am not trading Read or Voracek in any deal for him, that hurts our team more than helps. The goal is to build a winner, not trade player for player with other teams. Where does that get you? Read is essential to this teams third line and PK unit, without him Couts+ our PK would be pretty crappy right around now.

Also, Max Pac has had injury issues throughout his career, so I would be a little worried. If people want to trade Voracek/Read/Schenn+Morin+another pick, we should not be targeting Max Pacioretty, we should be going after Shea Weber with that type of package(or a player of his caliber)

Ryan got Anahiem

Silfverberg
Stefan Noesen
1st rounder

Max Pac is not better, even with that contract, than Ryan. We aren't giving up more than that.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 02:50 PM
  #91
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 111,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
You are comparing this to trading Sbisa in a package for Chris Pronger?
Our best d-prospect at the time? Yes. Pacioretty, because of his age and contract, is probably worth about as much to the Habs as we traded for Pronger, to which it is well-known we bid against ourselves for

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 03:58 PM
  #92
Flyerss
Registered User
 
Flyerss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,714
vCash: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Why does the fan base have such a hard on for this guy. Other than organizational need, I don't get it. He isn't exactly setting the Q on fire and is years away from having any type of NHL impact. If he could be a key part in getting a proven 30 goal scoring, top shooting, first line winger at 25 years old locked up on a cheap contract, I wouldn't even hesitate. I know at HF, we all see potential first and production second, but Pacioretty is a given commodity.

The Flyers has an abundance of forwards to trade for a defenseman and there is always free agency. I just don't understand the mentality of "this guy could be a top pairing D" vs "this guy IS a first line winger", especially since the window to impact for Morin is so far away.
HOLMGREN what are u doing here?

Flyerss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:03 PM
  #93
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
I fully understand the issue with finding a #1 D. I don't know if that is in Morin's future. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Here is a list of top 10 picks for D from 2004-2010:
2004
Barker, Smid & Valabik
2005
J. Johnson, Lee & Bourdon
2006
E. Johnson
2007
Hickey, Alzner & Ellerby
2008
Doughty, Bogosian, Pietrangelo & Schenn
2009
Hedman, Ekman-Larson & Cowen
2010
Gudbranson & McIlrath

That's 19 D and most of the guys that are actually considered #1 D were taken top 5. To me, he isn't close to a guarantee. Meanwhile Pacioretty is a proven NHL first line winger.

The other thing that makes so little sense to me is the guys being listed as D prospects are all likely 3-5 years away from being impactful for the Flyers. Giroux & Voracek are now in their prime. Couturier is almost there. The team up front looks pretty good and Mason is playing well too. I know the glaring issue that should be addressed is on D, but sitting and waiting years for prospects to address it seems like a total waste of what could be a very good team.

And I don't think the price is as outrageous as some suggest. It probably is going to take a bit more than Bobby Ryan's return, but that is because MP is locked up. The Canadiens have a huge deficiency in grit/size in their forwards. When you have 3 quality guys in that mold with Simmonds, Downie and Hartnell, I think one of them would be the primary target in a trade. If Morin was part of the deal, but a defenseman who is NHL ready came back in the package, it makes sense.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:04 PM
  #94
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
We are all really over valuing Pac's here. He isn't going to cost Schenn+Hartnell or anything like that. The deal would be centered around Schenn, and add some to it. The problem is what do you add to that, first rounder?? I'm not too sure about that. I understand everyone is saying overpayent!!! overpayment!!! ONLY OVERPYMENT!!! gets him out!! Thing is, he is popping up in rumors way too much. Somewhere along the lines management isn't all that pleased with him and would listen if the pieces are right coming back. This does not mean over payment, if they get an offer they feel is good for now and into the future, they will probably think about it. If we are giving up Schenn, there is no way Morin, Hagg, Ghost, Laughton follow him there, it would be a terrible trade.

Also, I am not trading Read or Voracek in any deal for him, that hurts our team more than helps. The goal is to build a winner, not trade player for player with other teams. Where does that get you? Read is essential to this teams third line and PK unit, without him Couts+ our PK would be pretty crappy right around now.

Also, Max Pac has had injury issues throughout his career, so I would be a little worried. If people want to trade Voracek/Read/Schenn+Morin+another pick, we should not be targeting Max Pacioretty, we should be going after Shea Weber with that type of package(or a player of his caliber)

Ryan got Anahiem

Silfverberg
Stefan Noesen
1st rounder

Max Pac is not better, even with that contract, than Ryan. We aren't giving up more than that.
Akeson, a 4th and future considerations work better for you?

GoneFullHextall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:05 PM
  #95
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
If rumour is true the flyers will be giving a french player or prospect to habs that dwindles the possibilities

thom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:11 PM
  #96
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
 
LegionOfDoom91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 14,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Akeson, a 4th and future considerations work better for you?
Him alone is too much, he leads the Phantoms in scoring that has to count for something.

LegionOfDoom91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #97
Raffl House
Registered User
 
Raffl House's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,849
vCash: 500
Not sure we need another guy like this. I'd almost like to see the Flyers stand pat; the organization depth and prospect pool should continue as is. If we ever want to see change with the Flyers, it will come from within the talent we have now. If that talent fails, Holmgren should get the boot.

Raffl House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:44 PM
  #98
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 111,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
The Flyers has an abundance of forwards to trade for a defenseman and there is always free agency. I just don't understand the mentality of "this guy could be a top pairing D" vs "this guy IS a first line winger", especially since the window to impact for Morin is so far away.
Morin likely isn't as far as people think. The Flyers wanted to keep him this year, they just couldn't with all the other terrible contracts they picked up from other teams, since so many quality defensemen are always available.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:52 PM
  #99
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Morin likely isn't as far as people think. The Flyers wanted to keep him this year, they just couldn't with all the other terrible contracts they picked up from other teams, since so many quality defensemen are always available.
Even if he is ready to play in the NHL, he is still going to be years away from being a #1. It's a very tough transition to make as a defenceman. Even Seth Jones is not close to being ready to be a #1 and some think he is the best D prospect to emerge in years.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-24-2013, 04:55 PM
  #100
jabba2
Just say no to Clowe
 
jabba2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 510
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Morin likely isn't as far as people think. The Flyers wanted to keep him this year, they just couldn't with all the other terrible contracts they picked up from other teams, since so many quality defensemen are always available.
What would his role be on the Flyers next year? #6? He should be getting as many minutes and OZ time as possible wherever he plays at.

jabba2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.