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Hartnell and Simmonds.

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Old
12-21-2013, 12:46 AM
  #126
OzFlyer
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
Simmonds can give you what hartnell gives you with at least the ability to carry the puck and not fall over.

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12-21-2013, 01:28 AM
  #127
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Hartnell needs to be traded. Simple as that.

There's no way anyone can honestly say he deserves to be in the top 9 over Giroux, Raffl, Voracek, Schenn, Simmonds, Lecavelier, Read, Downie, or Couturier. It would be stupid to keep him as a 4 liner being paid nearly 5 million a year and it would be even worse to replace one of the people who actually deserve to be in the top 9. I have zero faith that either Berube or Homer will do what they need to do, they'll probably keep him just because it's Hartnell.

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12-21-2013, 09:27 AM
  #128
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Trade for Kane, another Simmonds/Hartnell

Rumor is that Flyers are interested in Evander Kane.
That seems likely since Holmgren makes moves that seem boneheaded.
We already have 2 power forward wingers, why do we need more?
IMHO, trades should be focused on improving the slow, offensively challanged defense.

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12-21-2013, 09:56 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Rumor is that Flyers are interested in Evander Kane.
That seems likely since Holmgren makes moves that seem boneheaded.
We already have 2 power forward wingers, why do we need more?
IMHO, trades should be focused on improving the slow, offensively challanged defense.
I do not particularly like Kane. His apparent ego and attitude problems also scare me.

But he is far from just a power forward... and is better than Hartnell and Simmonds, and can really put a puck in the net. He is also only 22 years old as of august. His D is also ok... better than Simmonds and better than Hartnell currently. He is on Pegs 2nd PK pairing.

Last three season factored:

10-11: 21 goals, 48 points (as a 19 year old)
11-12: 33 goals, 63 points (as a 20 year old)
12-13: 29 goals, 56 points (as a 21 year old)

The guy could legitimately become a 35-35 guy consistently and could be a great fit with G and V.


Last edited by Appleyard: 12-21-2013 at 10:01 AM.
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12-21-2013, 10:07 AM
  #130
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That gif. My god.

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12-21-2013, 10:20 AM
  #131
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The problem is really having both of them on the same line. Compounded by the fact that their center is more of a power forward type himself than a creative puck carrier/distributor. I get that there's not much they can do about it with the roster being what it is; Giroux is starting to click with Jake and Raffl, and Read-Couts-Downie has been consistently good as well. So what's left gets tossed on a line together and you hope it starts to work.

When Vinny returns he has to center that line. I put Schenn and Simmonds on his wings and see if they get going. Hartnell to the 4th line until somebody gets hurt or whatever...it's hockey, somebody will get banged up. Yea it's pretty lousy use of resources paying $4M to your 4th line LW but...what can you do?

Long term, Hartnell probably has to go. Maybe somebody will be interested and trade for him. But with the emergence of Raffl he just doesn't fit in our top-9, and if he goes and somebody goes down Tye McGinn can come up and fill his role.

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12-21-2013, 12:42 PM
  #132
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Long term one of Simmonds or Hartnell has to be trade bait. For this season assuming we probably don't make a knee jerk mid season move, I would do

Raffl - Giroux - Voracek
Schenn - LeCavalier - Simmonds
Read - Couts - Downie
Hartnell - Hall - Rinaldo

Next year and beyond:

LeCavalier - Giroux - Voracek
Raffl - Couts - XXX
Read - Laughton - YYY
- Hall -

2nd and 3rd line Right wings would be one of Hartnell/Simmonds (Simmonds is awful defensively so I would play him on 2nd line if he is the one retained), and then Schenn if he is retained. I prefer to move him as I just am not that crazy about him and think he still has some value. In that case I would move him for futures or a decent D piece, and retain Downie

Maybe a guy like Cousins can make the 4th line next season, although i'm not sure how his defensive play has been this season. I'd like to improve that line into a legitimate two way unit that can pitch in on the PK, and move past Rosehill and Rinaldo anchors.

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12-21-2013, 05:33 PM
  #133
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The thing about lumping these 2 guys together is outside of them both being to some degree "power forwards" they're really not similar players. Hartnell is an OK offensive player who doesn't skate well (obviously), who's on the wrong side of 30. Simmonds is much more of a "dirty goal" type of scorer, but he's a much better skater and also provides legitimate toughness in your forward group. He's also a much younger player whose better years may be ahead of him. They also have vastly different trade value if you were to move one of them. So when people say "trade one of Simmonds/Hartnell" you're not saying much. If you trade Hartnell you're just looking to move his contract and clear a spot in your top-9, because if you find somebody to take that contract you're not getting anything substantial on top of it. Whereas if you decide to move Simmonds you're talking about getting a legitimate piece in return; we've seen proposals of Simmonds + for Edler for example.

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:19 AM
  #134
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Could Milo + Wiercioch + (conacher?) land simmonds? Milo can.play with vorecek, wiercioch is a really good puck moving d prospect, and conacher is a throw in since milo is an up and coming ufa (although hes a young gritty prospect)

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12-23-2013, 11:29 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by thefatjesus View Post
Could Milo + Wiercioch + (conacher?) land simmonds? Milo can.play with vorecek, wiercioch is a really good puck moving d prospect, and conacher is a throw in since milo is an up and coming ufa (although hes a young gritty prospect)
Considering the Flyers defense has been good this season I am not sure that would fetch Simmonds. I would love to have Wiercioch but if i am moving simmonds then it has to be a package for Bobby Ryan. What are the Sens looking for for Wiercioch? Anyway the Flyers can give you Hartnell for him

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12-23-2013, 11:31 AM
  #136
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I don't understand how he could possibly fall there. Hartnell sucks

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12-23-2013, 11:42 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Considering the Flyers defense has been good this season I am not sure that would fetch Simmonds. I would love to have Wiercioch but if i am moving simmonds then it has to be a package for Bobby Ryan. What are the Sens looking for for Wiercioch? Anyway the Flyers can give you Hartnell for him
Well im pretty sure Spezza will be moved soon, and id like to assume we would be getting a d-man back. Wiercioch is a valuable piece but could become expendable, id personally love hartnell (his contract is his only downside) but it would be more beneficial for the sens to go after simmonds..and three nhl ready players may be fair value wise..but i see what ur saying. You guys pretty certain your gonna lose one of simmonds or hartnell eh?

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12-23-2013, 11:58 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by thefatjesus View Post
Well im pretty sure Spezza will be moved soon, and id like to assume we would be getting a d-man back. Wiercioch is a valuable piece but could become expendable, id personally love hartnell (his contract is his only downside) but it would be more beneficial for the sens to go after simmonds..and three nhl ready players may be fair value wise..but i see what ur saying. You guys pretty certain your gonna lose one of simmonds or hartnell eh?
Not saying the value isnt there. I would assume Flyers would much rather move Hartnell (due to age and contract) over Simmonds. I think Wiercioch would be a perfect fit for the Flyers. I think Simmonds with his age, previous seasons and his contract he has little chance of being moved unless it is a package for someone like Ryan or rumored Eberle. I see the Sens have cap space, what would have to be included in Hartnell for Wier deal?

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12-23-2013, 07:23 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Not saying the value isnt there. I would assume Flyers would much rather move Hartnell (due to age and contract) over Simmonds. I think Wiercioch would be a perfect fit for the Flyers. I think Simmonds with his age, previous seasons and his contract he has little chance of being moved unless it is a package for someone like Ryan or rumored Eberle. I see the Sens have cap space, what would have to be included in Hartnell for Wier deal?
Hmm maybe salary retained could be close, i dont think wierciochs value is much higher than hartnells if im trying to be realistic. would you be willing to give up another roster player for him? And if so which one(s)? Obviously not a substaintial piece tho

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12-23-2013, 09:29 PM
  #140
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It would be a bad decision to flip Simmonds for anything less than an overpayment at this point just because he's got more value than and will be easier to move. The Flyers are handcuffed by the situation, yes, but I'm sure that an opportunity to move Hartnell for at least a pick+ will make itself available sooner rather than later if Homer is diligent.

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12-24-2013, 07:05 AM
  #141
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So with 7 points in the last 4 games, is Simmonds off everyone's trade list?

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12-24-2013, 07:47 AM
  #142
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So with 7 points in the last 4 games, is Simmonds off everyone's trade list?
If the trade is for a scoring winger... moving a scoring winger... is... hmm.

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12-24-2013, 10:57 AM
  #143
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Both have been a lot better recently, Simmonds especially.

Simmonds is now on pace for ~22 goals, 27 assists and 49 points. After last years pace of 27-31-58.

In the last 82 games he has 25-29-54... add in the season before where he got 49 points and that is 164 games where he has been a 25 goal and ~50 point player.

Simmonds in actually 36th in the NHL in goals since the start of 11-12. Giroux and Hartnell are tied 41st and Voracek is 44th.

Simmonds GPG is very similar to JVR, Duchene and D. Sedin in that time. Though tbf Hartnell is above all of them due to 11-12.

Hartnell is almost back on pace for 0.5PPG. But 26 in his last 65 (33 point pace) is not pretty, and mirrors his overall play in that time.

I do think Hartnell is the odd man out really.

I just wish Simmonds was better defensively... he tries, but Hartnell was very very solid in his own end on the sly for most of his career.

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12-24-2013, 12:34 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
So with 7 points in the last 4 games, is Simmonds off everyone's trade list?

eh, I dont know. Simmonds is doing what he usually does. He has streaks like this a couple of times during the season. then he doesnt do much and doesnt look very good. If you are looking for a scoring winger you still should look to move Simmonds.

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12-24-2013, 11:46 PM
  #145
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okay, I got one for each of them.

Wiercioch for Hartnell (30% retained)

or

Spezza for Simmonds + B.Schenn

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12-25-2013, 01:08 AM
  #146
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okay, I got one for each of them.

Wiercioch for Hartnell (30% retained)

or

Spezza for Simmonds + B.Schenn
I would love Spezza and with Giroux and Jake, I think he would produce at a PPG level which is what he has been able to do in his career.

The problem with your trade is two fold. One, the glaring problem is Spezza's 7 million cap hit through next year. That's a tough contract to bring in for one player, and if he continues to excel, I don't see him getting anything less than 6 million per year on a 3-4 year deal after his contract expires next season. Understand though that players as good as Spezza become available.......never.......and you should take the chance when you can. Except...

The second problem is that I don't think you are providing nearly enough value back to Ottawa. Why would they take a 2nd-3rd liner who has been anything but streaky and a player who has the potential to be a star, but in nearly 150 NHL games has not shown that he is capable of producing, or even flashing, at that type of level. My personal opinion is that we saw flashes in JVR being a top line player. We see the occasional flashes of brilliance in Coots. Do you see it in Schenn? I don't...and I don't think anyone is fooled.

Except Holmgren, of course.

I think for a Spezza trade, you are adding in picks. Very high picks. Plus a prospect...and if we offered anyone other than Laughton, they probably kabash the deal. Not sure I'm ready to give up that type of return on a team that is otherwise proven to be nothing but a .500 team over last season and this season, so far.

Moving Schenn and Simmonds also opens up holes on your 2nd/3rd lines. Moving Laughton opens up a roster spot that needs to be filled next season. Do you want Jason Akeson on your 2nd line? I surely hope not.

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12-25-2013, 10:47 AM
  #147
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http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?po...user_id=126598

Pretty much sums up what many of us have written here.

Nevertheless, nice summary of the Hartnell situation.

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12-25-2013, 12:44 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?po...user_id=126598

Pretty much sums up what many of us have written here.

Nevertheless, nice summary of the Hartnell situation.
Pretty spot on article about Hartnell. I believe Hartnell is wearing those clear plastic coverings on his skate to prevent further foot injuries. That would explain why he is falling down so much. Schenn had the same problem falling down last year, but seems to have adjusted to wearing them. Thats really my only defense of Hartnell at this point. If another team thinks they can get Hartnell to return to form the Flyers would be foolish not to attempt to trade him, and tell Hartnell he is no longer a top 6 player for this system.

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12-25-2013, 01:20 PM
  #149
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Pretty spot on article about Hartnell. I believe Hartnell is wearing those clear plastic coverings on his skate to prevent further foot injuries. That would explain why he is falling down so much. Schenn had the same problem falling down last year, but seems to have adjusted to wearing them. Thats really my only defense of Hartnell at this point. If another team thinks they can get Hartnell to return to form the Flyers would be foolish not to attempt to trade him, and tell Hartnell he is no longer a top 6 player for this system.
I can imagine he has another ~25-25-50 season in him... I reckon a few teams around the league do as well.

I imagine he ends this season pacing for over 40.

He still holds some decent value I imagine for certain teams... for all his faults. He is the kind of player who GM's fall unfathomably in love with... lets just hope there are a few GMs in the current crop who feel that way.

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12-25-2013, 01:32 PM
  #150
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I can imagine he has another ~25-25-50 season in him... I reckon a few teams around the league do as well.

I imagine he ends this season pacing for over 40.

He still holds some decent value I imagine for certain teams... for all his faults. He is the kind of player who GM's fall unfathomably in love with... lets just hope there are a few GMs in the current crop who feel that way.
Like the teams going after Clowe last year, some GM's might consider Hartnell possibly a better overall player than him.

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