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Old
12-23-2013, 08:51 PM
  #1
SAKS AVENUE
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The Draft Wheel

So burnt on the Edmonton situation, fried on the "Should we tank?" threads. Sick of the plain idea that a team would even consider tanking in pro sports, period.

Read this article with my eyes have into a roll, when it kind of started to sound like it actually might be a great idea. Anyways, with 8 days off over Christmas thought it might be something fun to talk about and consider, instead of the endless banter that is kind of dry right now.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...ry-162726362--

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12-23-2013, 09:21 PM
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sharks9
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Brutal idea.

What if next year was the Bruins' year to pick #1? Would everyone here be fine with them getting the next Crosby even though they're already a great team?

This idea would kill small-market teams that finish near the bottom of the standings as well because their fans wouldn't even have a high pick to look forward to.

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12-23-2013, 09:39 PM
  #3
Gustave
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I think it's a brutal idea so I guess it'll make it's way into the NHL...

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12-23-2013, 09:49 PM
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Spearmint Rhino
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They should reverse the weighted odds from 17-30

Team that's closest to making the playoffs gets best odds as a reward for battling hard

Teams that are run into the ground by GMs with 6 Rings should not get rewarded, might force them to actually be good at their jobs

Doubt a team would purposely miss the playoffs to get the top pick

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:23 PM
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SAKS AVENUE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Brutal idea.

What if next year was the Bruins' year to pick #1? Would everyone here be fine with them getting the next Crosby even though they're already a great team?

This idea would kill small-market teams that finish near the bottom of the standings as well because their fans wouldn't even have a high pick to look forward to.
Bruins got lucky with Seguin while they were a great team, and they ended up with Rask on a really good trade. See how that all worked itself out.

Now let's say they did have the #1 next year? They will not have #1 again for 30 years.

I think it's a brilliant idea. You get your moments and the rest is built around making great moves. It might actually get teams to start making hard moves while trading instead of this meek bullcrap going on now.

A question for you...... What if the Habs have the first pick next year?

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:26 PM
  #6
SAKS AVENUE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustave View Post
I think it's a brutal idea so I guess it'll make it's way into the NHL...

I think it's brilliant and I hope it does make it's way.

Not sure if I caught the whole thing but as long as teams could still trade the picks, it could be really fun at the trade deadline.

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:28 PM
  #7
SAKS AVENUE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spearmint Rhino View Post
They should reverse the weighted odds from 17-30

Team that's closest to making the playoffs gets best odds as a reward for battling hard

Teams that are run into the ground by GMs with 6 Rings should not get rewarded, might force them to actually be good at their jobs

Doubt a team would purposely miss the playoffs to get the top pick

I think they do to a degree, or at least influence it. This would end that.

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:41 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by SAKS AVENUE View Post
I think they do to a degree, or at least influence it. This would end that.
I think long shot playoff teams give up now cause there's a prize but if we reversed it I couldn't see a team like the Wild last year tanking last game to let the Jackets in when the extra revenue is something like $2MM/playoff home game

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:50 PM
  #9
Viggo Mortensen
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You would see some GMs trade their high draft picks that are far away for present talent to not lose their job.

The idea is interesting, but it feels weird

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Old
12-24-2013, 12:02 AM
  #10
Agnostic
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what problem is this scheme solving? Are we trying to prevent another Pittsburgh Penguin team? That was a historical fluke (or a league conspiracy take your pick).

I don't think there is a winning disincentive, I don't think teams are purposely losing to get less than a 50 percent chance at the top player.

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Old
12-24-2013, 08:56 AM
  #11
RealityBytes
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This is just an idea taken from what the NBA is pondering where tanking is far more prominent than in the NHL. The NBA teams play with only five players on the court and the choice of one particular draftee can affect a team far more in the NBA than it does with the NHL, and in turn which is why tanking is more prominent in the NBA.

It is doubtful this will ever come to pass with the NHL.

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Old
12-24-2013, 11:25 AM
  #12
Lars Mon Amour
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Our boy Hawkeye?

Hawkeye 1 day ago
4
33

Tanking is a "problem" that exists only in the imaginations of fans and journalists who have way too much time on their hands and overactive imaginations.

Look at the Calgary Flames. They've been bashed by Puck Daddy (and others) for NOT tanking. The fact is, even when your team sucks, every player's job is on the line. They play hard, they want their next contract, or to impress GMs from other teams. They're also just naturally competitive. Coaches coach hard, wanting to win, because being a coach on a sucky team is a great way to lose your job.

Nobody tanks in hockey anymore, period. Quit trying to fix things that aren't broken.

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Old
12-24-2013, 11:31 AM
  #13
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Yeah, anyone will have a very tough time convincing me the Buffalo Sabres aren't tanking this year.

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Old
12-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  #14
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I like the idea of taking the bottom 8 teams after the trade deadline, and re-ranking them. Whoever has the best record out of those teams, from the deadline on, gets the best chance of the first overall lottery pick. Eliminates the 'tank', or otherwise known as the 'Penguins Rebuilding Plan'

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Old
12-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #15
shamrun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I like the idea of taking the bottom 8 teams after the trade deadline, and re-ranking them. Whoever has the best record out of those teams, from the deadline on, gets the best chance of the first overall lottery pick. Eliminates the 'tank', or otherwise known as the 'Penguins Rebuilding Plan'
Good idea. I like it but I can imagine fourth and third liners not giving an honest effort. Knowing that they are playing and some 18 year old is probably going to take a spot somewhere.

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Old
12-24-2013, 12:33 PM
  #16
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My idea is you split the 14 non playoff teams in two groups of 7
7 worst teams and the next 7. Group with the 7 worst teams go first and teams are randomly picked from 1 to 7. Then you do the same with the other group.

You will still have tankers and such but every once a while a team trying to win will manage to have high end picks.

Last year example

Group 1
Panthers
Avalanche
Lightning
Predators
Hurricanes
Flames
Oilers

Group 2
Sabres
Devils
Stars
Flyers
Coyotes
Jets
Jackets

Here's what I got by doing it

1- Predators
2- Flames
3- Lightning
4- Panthers
5- Avalanche
6- Hurricanes
7- Oilers
8- Devils
9- Sabres
10- Coyotes
11- Stars
12- Jets
13- Flyers
14- Jackets


Last edited by Doublechin: 12-24-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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Old
12-24-2013, 12:45 PM
  #17
Patccmoi
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My idea would be to give a penalty on draft position of the following year for teams picking in the top 5 (or could be say top 10, doesn't really matter).

If you pick say #1, well next year you get a 5 ranks penalty, following year 3, and the year after 1. Penalty could not take your ranking past 16th (so you would not be penalized if you made the playoffs, and you could never be pushed behind a playoff team).

It could be something like

#1 -> 5 ranks penalty
#2 -> 4 ranks penalty
...
#5 -> 1 rank penalty


This would prevent any team from doing what the Oilers are doing now, what Pittsburgh did, TB did, and Chicago to a lesser extent.

I absolutely hate the fact that teams would be rewarded by having multiple top draft picks in a row, which rewards mediocrity so much.

So sure, you have an horrible year, you can have a top draft pick. But you won't be able to get another one in the next few years so you might as well try to win. I don't think teams would try to lose in order to draft #6 instead of #10. The difference in skill between these picks is usually not nearly as big as when you're usually comparing the top 3-5 with the rest.

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Old
12-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #18
Canadiens Ghost
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Horrible idea. So much wrong with it. Along with the other problems mentioned, say for example you implement this system next year. What happens when you add teams through expansion, let say in 5 or 10 years from now? Where will they draft? Will they have a chance at first?

Or lets say a team is really bad right now and their predetermined draft order for the next 4 years is 28th - 21st - 16th - 9th (according to the wheel)? How would you feel as a fan of that team knowing your team will have little to no help for the foreseeable future? That would really suck and there would be nothing to get excited about.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SAKS AVENUE View Post

A question for you...... What if the Habs have the first pick next year?
A question for you... What if the Habs had the 25th pick instead of the third when they drafted Galchenyuk?

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Old
12-24-2013, 02:06 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens Ghost View Post
A question for you... What if the Habs had the 25th pick instead of the third when they drafted Galchenyuk?
We wouldn't have the best player from the 2012 draft... instead we'd have someone between Olli Maatta and Brendan Gaunce.

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Old
12-26-2013, 12:27 PM
  #20
Sorinth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Brutal idea.

What if next year was the Bruins' year to pick #1? Would everyone here be fine with them getting the next Crosby even though they're already a great team?

This idea would kill small-market teams that finish near the bottom of the standings as well because their fans wouldn't even have a high pick to look forward to.
I love the idea.

Adding a great player to an already good team isn't the end of the world. See Boston with Seguin. Not too mention at trade deadline having a top-5 pick would be a great asset to trade to get an impact player right now.

As for small-market teams, at the end of the day part of the reason they finish near the bottom every year is because that's their strategy. If finishing at the bottom didn't give top picks then they would make a much stronger push for the playoffs which would be good for the fans and potentially generate more interest then a losing season and a top-pick (Especially for teams that already have top picks and still suck).

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Old
12-26-2013, 12:44 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens Ghost View Post
Horrible idea. So much wrong with it. Along with the other problems mentioned, say for example you implement this system next year. What happens when you add teams through expansion, let say in 5 or 10 years from now? Where will they draft? Will they have a chance at first?

Or lets say a team is really bad right now and their predetermined draft order for the next 4 years is 28th - 21st - 16th - 9th (according to the wheel)? How would you feel as a fan of that team knowing your team will have little to no help for the foreseeable future? That would really suck and there would be nothing to get excited about.


A question for you... What if the Habs had the 25th pick instead of the third when they drafted Galchenyuk?
If your next 4 years is 28, 21, 16, 9 it means you just drafted #3 so I don't see how your team has no hope for the foreseeable future. If the Habs had the 25th pick instead of the 3rd it means, the year before we probably drafted Sean Coutourier the year before. All the late picks follow a top pick so you've drafted an 18 year old potential star, you are going to try to build around that player. Since your not getting top picks, you don't wait 3-4 years to build around him, you build right away. For instance you probably trade #28 for a quality vet so that your #3 pick actually has a good veteran to play with.

Also keep in mind, right now it's hard to get multiple top picks in the same draft class because the teams with those picks are also rebuilding. With the wheel, chances are a couple of teams will have a top-10 pick that they want to trade away so that they can go for the cup right now. So it will be easier to deal for top picks which would make rebuilding easier rather than harder.

Really the only issue is the transition period. And if it was announced say 3 years in advance you should be able to properly prepare for it.

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Old
12-26-2013, 12:47 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Mon Amour View Post
Our boy Hawkeye?

Hawkeye 1 day ago
4
33

Tanking is a "problem" that exists only in the imaginations of fans and journalists who have way too much time on their hands and overactive imaginations.

Look at the Calgary Flames. They've been bashed by Puck Daddy (and others) for NOT tanking. The fact is, even when your team sucks, every player's job is on the line. They play hard, they want their next contract, or to impress GMs from other teams. They're also just naturally competitive. Coaches coach hard, wanting to win, because being a coach on a sucky team is a great way to lose your job.

Nobody tanks in hockey anymore, period. Quit trying to fix things that aren't broken.
Well said.

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Old
12-26-2013, 09:36 PM
  #23
Canadiens Ghost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If your next 4 years is 28, 21, 16, 9 it means you just drafted #3 so I don't see how your team has no hope for the foreseeable future. If the Habs had the 25th pick instead of the 3rd it means, the year before we probably drafted Sean Coutourier the year before.

And if that number 3 is not enough to turn your franchise around (he might be a bust, have a career ending injury early on, etc...) well good luck with those 28, 21 and 16th pick the next 3 years. I guess it will be a Couturier to the rescue

The more I think about a draft wheel, the more horrible of an idea I believe it is.

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Old
12-26-2013, 10:20 PM
  #24
Sorinth
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Ghost View Post
And if that number 3 is not enough to turn your franchise around (he might be a bust, have a career ending injury early on, etc...) well good luck with those 28, 21 and 16th pick the next 3 years. I guess it will be a Couturier to the rescue

The more I think about a draft wheel, the more horrible of an idea I believe it is.
Your acting as if the only way to become a good team is through top picks. If you have bad management your going to have a crappy team whether you have top picks or not. Just look at the Oilers, they're terrible, and 3 straight 1st overall picks later they are still 29th. So really has giving them those top picks really done anything to turn their franchise around?

If they knew they weren't getting those picks they would be more concerned with icing a competitive team and probably wouldn't be the worst team in the league year after year so it's better for the fans of Edmonton. And it's better for the fans of the teams who aren't in the basement as they have hope of becoming a contender instead of getting stuck as a perennial playoff bubble team that isn't bad enough to get top picks but isn't good enough to take the next step.

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Old
12-26-2013, 11:50 PM
  #25
Canadiens Ghost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Your acting as if the only way to become a good team is through top picks. If you have bad management your going to have a crappy team whether you have top picks or not. Just look at the Oilers, they're terrible, and 3 straight 1st overall picks later they are still 29th. So really has giving them those top picks really done anything to turn their franchise around?

If they knew they weren't getting those picks they would be more concerned with icing a competitive team and probably wouldn't be the worst team in the league year after year so it's better for the fans of Edmonton. And it's better for the fans of the teams who aren't in the basement as they have hope of becoming a contender instead of getting stuck as a perennial playoff bubble team that isn't bad enough to get top picks but isn't good enough to take the next step.


Lets take the bolded part first: Even if in your scenario the Oilers would be more "concerned" with icing a competitive team, how could they?. As you said, they have bad management. They would be even worse off with the draft wheel. Had they been more competent, they probably could have a more than decent team by now and some other team in need could be benefiting from the first overall pick. I really don't understand how a draft wheel in this case would be better for the Edmonton fans loll. What would be better for them is to have new management.

Now for the underlined part: You are contradicting yourself. If top picks aren't so important to becoming a good team, why would a bubble team absolutely need a top pick to become a contender. Which is it?

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