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Old
01-15-2007, 04:26 PM
  #26
MisterUnspoken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Why are Betts on the 2nd line, Prucha on the 4th and Hall and Ward out of the lineup?

I would call that Renney holding the players accountable! What else can you make out of it?

I think its obvious, he takes out two players who were locks in the lineups a few weeks ago, one of them even on a 1st line, and who also in terms of talent "should" be a lock on the roster.

He moves up a 4th line center who is busting his but on a shift by shift basis.

If Renney goes 25 games with thoose lines I'll join the chorus, and call for him beeing fired. Last time he shook it up, we were in a slump, and we got out of it and went back to "normal" lines.

I am sure we will this time too.
Betts was invisible not more than 2 games ago and yet he gets 2nd line duty?

I don't call that making players accountable, I call it stupid. Accountability is all well and good, but you still have to give your team a chance to win and I'm sorry those lines don't give us a chance to win.

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01-15-2007, 04:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
But Cam Janssen is currently in the minors. Who is Renny matching Orr with? No one else on the Devils will go with Orr.
Rupp? The Devils? A division rival? Who knows...but that's not the problem..the problem is the lines in general. Personally I think Ward should be in there on the 4th line wing until Krog plays himself out of a spot. But even with the guys who Renney is gonna use...nothing wrong with...

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Hossa-Cullen-Shanahan
Hollweg-Betts-Ortmeyer
Prucha-Krog-Ward

You can roll 4 very effective lines with that

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Old
01-15-2007, 04:31 PM
  #28
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TrueBlueBleedBlue...

Renney doesn't roll 4 lines anymore... That's the problem...

He dresses a 4th line and gives them 6-7 minutes a night, usually less when Orr is dressed.... Expect Prucha to get sub 10 minutes tomorrow night if he stays on that line...


Straka - Nylander - Jagr
Prucha - Immonen - Shanahan
Hossa - Cullen - Ward
Hollweg - Betts - Ortmeyer

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01-15-2007, 04:36 PM
  #29
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What is Ward accountable for?

not excelling as a top line center?

Prucha has 4 goals in 10 games - fourth line?

Malik has sucked, so Kaspar sits?

I'm all for accountability, and understand everyone can't sit, but I'm not for selective accountability.

Also, in relation to Hall, I think he's playing as expected (meaning, you're expecting a winger to score playing with Betts and other, which doesn't happen - Hossa gets promoted after acoupol decent games, but played a lot with Betts too without ever scoring - at what point does management realize thar wingers do not score with Betts?).

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01-15-2007, 04:37 PM
  #30
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Mister...

I remember that - I called that his most invisible game.

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01-15-2007, 04:45 PM
  #31
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Well these were lines in practice lets not get all up set over what could prove to be nothing

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01-15-2007, 04:53 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I remember that - I called that his most invisible game.
Yes I thought I remembered someone mentioning that, but watching that game I had to strongly agree with your assessment.

and I like Hossa a lot, but no way should he exceed the third line right now. Blair Betts should stay on the 4th line where he is effective. Jason Krog, I don't know... not even sure why we picked the guy up when we have more forwards that we have room to play as it is.

Just talking about this makes my head spin because it's that confusing.

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Old
01-15-2007, 05:16 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
TrueBlueBleedBlue...

Renney doesn't roll 4 lines anymore... That's the problem...

He dresses a 4th line and gives them 6-7 minutes a night, usually less when Orr is dressed.... Expect Prucha to get sub 10 minutes tomorrow night if he stays on that line...


Straka - Nylander - Jagr
Prucha - Immonen - Shanahan
Hossa - Cullen - Ward
Hollweg - Betts - Ortmeyer
Well I understand that...and ya know...that's part of the reason I'm always wanting Orr in there, despite his lack of skill. I think he can make more use of the 5 minutes he'll get as compared to some of the other guys. Some of the other players who play those minutes simply cannot be effective if their not getting special teams time, and 10-20 minutes a night. However...that is really all Orr needs on a night in and night out basis

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Old
01-15-2007, 05:19 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
not excelling as a top line center?

Prucha has 4 goals in 10 games - fourth line?

Malik has sucked, so Kaspar sits?

I'm all for accountability, and understand everyone can't sit, but I'm not for selective accountability.

Also, in relation to Hall, I think he's playing as expected (meaning, you're expecting a winger to score playing with Betts and other, which doesn't happen - Hossa gets promoted after acoupol decent games, but played a lot with Betts too without ever scoring - at what point does management realize thar wingers do not score with Betts?).

Very well said. If guys are gonna be held accountable then Malik would not be in this lineup. Jagr would have been benched for some of his lackadazical play a few weeks ago. Adam Hall would have been very comfortable up in the press box by now. Accountability does not relate to a select group of players...it's a team thing.

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Old
01-15-2007, 05:33 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by KingHenrik35 View Post
Well these were lines in practice lets not get all up set over what could prove to be nothing
Yeah he could switch them back.
But wouldnt you want your true lines to practice together, instead of always mixing it up? I would.

The team is inconsistent as it is. I dont areee with Renney toying with the lines in practice every week when he should be getting these guys to work together on basic things they constantly get wrong as a unit.


What good is todays practice with these units if you arent gonna use them??

Hes got Jason Ward paired with Kaspar.... to send Ward a message??
Then tomorrow what if Renney pulls one of his classic last minute lineup changes and decides to insert Ward into the lineup??

What good was that practice for Ward? Hes dicking around with Kaspar in a green jersey playing defense.

This is my problem with this.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 01-15-2007 at 05:40 PM.
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Old
01-15-2007, 05:46 PM
  #36
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After breaking up his traditional defensive pairings on Saturday, Tom Renney reunited those units today, citing as one reason the “synchronicity” between the top foward line and Michal Rozsival and Marek Malik.
Perfect example why you should try and stick with the same units in practice as you should in the game. As pointed out by Renney himself, with his use of the word "synchronicity".

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Old
01-15-2007, 05:52 PM
  #37
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Fleetch- I hear you. But, I wouldn't call it selective on all accounts, on some issues I think Renney and allot of fans don't agree. Like Malik for example. You can only judge Maliks efforts (is he accountable?) from how well Malik plays within his limits, right?

I think Malik are playing decent within his limits, I don't think its reasonable to ask for much more, and I take that next to Rozi over what Kaspar have to offer.

On Ward, I defenitly don't have him in the Hall cathegory, but he too aren't all that desparate. Something we need. He can do better within his limits. He can finnish more checks. He can block more shots. He can be hungrier infront of the net. Stuff like that. I don't think he will be out long. I defenitly don't think he deserves to be out in terms of talent and contribution, especially not compared to Orr. But its a clear case of a kick in the rear. I don't mind that, and everyday there is a ton of fans asking for it.

Prucha, earlier today I saw all his goals on a clip at youtube, magic. But I also remember the Washington game were he where invisible for 60 minutes playing on a 2nd line. He is far from 100%, I would bet its his confidence, but there are also some other issues. Like getting him away from depending on his goalscoring, and more in a direction were he contributes in other areas 60 minutes per game. The hustle is there, I love him because of it. I would truly hate it if he were moved. But he is in a slump right now on many levels.

The season is long though. I like that Renney aren't coaching for tuesday, he is coaching for March. Trying things out. Trying to get players gooing by moving around the lines. The results will come this spring, off how well he have coached the team for this season that is.

Hopefully, IMO, the results of his tenture in NY will come in 2-3 years. Thats when the handling of Prucha, Tyutin and our kids in the farm should start paying off... But thats another issue. I mean play Prucha with JJ and he would be on pace for 30 again, but the problems would still be there. Correct em now, hand we don't have to go through this 3 years again. Or like with Ward, the best team on the ice tuesday got Ward on it, though if you think Ward aren't giving 100%, do you start fix it in March or now? Whats better? Or giving Krog a big role on Tuesday, that might defenitly get him in the groove faster, make him a part of this team faster, it might not be the best lines for tuesday, but it might be the best for March.

From my perspective, Renneys perspective is what I call good coaching. Looking at the bigger picture. The details are another issue, but I don't have a big problem with them.

Thats the hole issue with accountability, otherwise you just ice the best team no matter what all the time. How else then not dooing that can you hold someone accountable?


Last edited by Ola: 01-15-2007 at 06:01 PM.
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Old
01-15-2007, 05:55 PM
  #38
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CALM. DOWN. EVERYONE.

Those lines don't make much sense and if they are used in the game I would expect a change to be made after the first if there not effective.....

But let's be serious here, Cullen sucks. He's got good speed combined with a shot that can be good 1 out of 5 times it's on net, and no size or ability to make good passes. He is a below average second liner in the NHL. He has 11 assists playing aside Brendan Shanahan. My point is, while Cullen sucks, why not give anyone, a trained monkey even, an opportunity on the second line. It's not the worst idea to put some checking line guys on the second line to put more pressure on the devils top two units who score the majority of the goals, in a game that will probably end up 2-1 anyway. Cullen and Prucha are way too soft and small. It's obvious we need to trade for a second line center because Cullen is terrible, but until then, improvise.

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Old
01-15-2007, 06:26 PM
  #39
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ola..

I can't fault Renney for trying to do something different, since aside from Jagr's line, this team needs changes. I just don't agree with his methodology. Something different may be playing Prucha a bit more for several games, though. He scored four goals in 8 games and then gets sent to the fourth line, whereas Hossa scores 5 points in 45 games and is playing on a second line.

Nobody likes Hall, but he's been as good as other third and fourth liners, and that's the role he plays. That he came here with different expectations is irrelevant because Renney plays him as a third/fourth liner. His results should be based on a third/fourth liner, playing with the likjes of Hollweg, Betts, et al.

As for Malik - I'll take it a different way. He does not play well on a top line and too often plays with zero passion, no sense of urgency, or like he didn't care. He gets beat frequently, and turns the puck over often. Yes, he's only as good as he is, but at the same time, then, if he's not good enough, perhaps he shouldn't be playing at all. Maybe with him 'accountable' is not the correct term - his lack of ability should put him on the bubble anyways.

I dunno - the bottom line is I think Renney was overrated as a coach last season, and isn't doing a good job this season. He's no Ruff, or even Lewis, or Laviolette, among many others. He's a guy who was given a coaching job despite NHL coaching success and having not coached in many years. He advised from the press box and it's different when you're behind the bench.

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Old
01-15-2007, 06:55 PM
  #40
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last game, they had "new" good lines for all of ONE period..

i don't know.. i cant get that mad until i see the awfulness of it during a full game. (soon enough i guess)..

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Old
01-15-2007, 08:01 PM
  #41
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prucha-straka-jagr

hossa-nylander-shanny

cullen-immo-ward

hollweg-betts-orts

in my opinion those should be given a fair chance for a few games.......balance out the scoring

and i know we tried hossa on the 2nd line for a really long time last year...too long cause he was doing nothing.....but i feel that hes really played a much better all around game the last 20 games...the offense hasnt been there but hes just been controlling the puck down low so well i feel like his offense would possibly come around with shanny and nylander....prucha up on the 1st with mrty and jagr....i dont see how that line could possibly fail.....jagr getting double teamed and dishing it off.....prucha can fininsh off those feeds and hes got a nose for the net to bang in those rebounds...

cullen and ward both have decent speed to make up for immonens lack of and jarrko is no defensive liability and can make good passes... win some faceoffs and generally plays a smart game ....and the 4th line would be just that....a good 4th line thats gonna win faceoffs and create energy.....

just me though......i dont have renneys phone # to tell him these things

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Old
01-15-2007, 08:28 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky13 View Post
prucha-straka-jagr

hossa-nylander-shanny

cullen-immo-ward

hollweg-betts-orts
I think a lot of people have been clamoring for those lines or similar ones for a long time now. They seem to make good sense to me.

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Old
01-15-2007, 08:35 PM
  #43
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I can't really get to caught up in the line combos in practice today. For all we know the Rangers were just looking at things to see how they mesh in practice..

However...

the way i break it down is like this..

Nothing has really worked this season other than the Jagr line.

Cullen Krog Ortmeyer is a speedy line that can (on paper) pin the Devils in the offensive zone and forecheck....but this is the line you put Prucha on..

Hossa Betts Shanny is another line that can forecheck and both Betts and Hossa have played better than Cullen and Prucha over the past few games. Shanny CAN score on this line and Hossa and Shanny showed some chemistry in there short time together...Does this mean the staff has finally come to the conclusion 2 months to late that Cullen isn't a 2nd line player? I don't know...I hope so..

The line that I do have a HUGE complaint about is Prucha Hollweg Orr/Hall. Hollweg is more effective as a winger. Hollweg can't win a faceoff in the NHL he is terrible at it..Prucha playing with guys that don't have a point this season is about the worst coaching move we've seen around here in a long time. Switching Cullen or Krog with Prucha makes the most sense.

The real indication of where the rebuild is going is Prucha. It's really changed my point of view as a fan of this team. It's a real indication (and i'm late to the party i guess) that the organization from Sather to Renney have no clue how to handle this rebuild..this team...everything....

There going to trade Prucha and he isn't going to turn into Hlavac he is going to turn into Amonte....AND THAT'S not even the real problem with the potential trade. The real problem is the Rangers again from Sather to Renney have killed his trade value...

It's just bad asset management...

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Old
01-15-2007, 09:33 PM
  #44
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You know, I wonder if this all has to do with a commitment to longer-term rebuilding. (Bear with me here...)

So we pick up multiple retread players both last year and this either off waivers or for marginal prospects and use them to plug holes on everything below the first line. We build a defence out of 3-6 Ds. And, when we have injuries, we call up our talented prospects for as short as possible and send them back down as soon as is practical.

Could it be that Satherloney and Renney are taking the view that our true potential stars are very young and need to be brought along gradually until they're ready to play prominent roles? (a la the Yanks and Phillip Hughes, who could easily have been the team's #3 or #4 starter last year?) In the meantime, they're plugging gaps to keep those players playing the biggest possible roles in the lower levels?

Hey, I realize this is rationalization taken pretty far, but I'm hoping. The only thing that doesn't jibe with this idea right now is Prucha demoted to the fourth line, which is wacky regardless of the scenario. (I'd love to hear management's rationale behind that - has anyone in the organization ever gone on record to explain it?)

Of course, if they deal a Dubinsky/Callahan/Montoya between now and the deadline for a 32 year old B- player... well, there will go another faint hope.


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Old
01-15-2007, 09:45 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I cant understand one bit, how Renney changes lines like he changes his underpants.

I think weve seen more line combinations this year so far than any full season i can remember.

They explode in the 3rd period vs. Ottawa - IMO were pretty evenly tailored lines, he comes out in Boston with the same lineup and then changes his mind before the second period even comes.

He then pulls this crap. I dont know what hes trying to do here.

Don't worry because If Renney remains true to himself, well see the normal lines by the end of the first again.

What REALLY steams my pickle is that Renney puts these picked out of a hat lines together in practices which are very important this time of year. No wonder the team continues to play inconsistent - they dont have a chance to practice with their true linemates and partners because Renney has them bouncing around like Forrest Gump's ping pong balls.

Maybe he's trying to beat down into everyones mind that theres a certain way he wants each individual to assimilate to the system hes designed and no matter what line you are on, your role remains the same. Thats the only reason why i could see him doing this, but like a majority of the skilled players on the team - its getting way too fancy.

Keep it simple! Just shoot the puck, just keep the same lines.
Yeah, those lines are wacky, shanny is second line for sure, but don't knock off krog just yet. He deserves 3rd line, he was never given a shot at the NHL level and I have a hunch that he can succeed given the right conditions. Put him with prucha and Ward, lots of offense right there. Look at ward and krog's production at the AHL level and juniors/college. They can score, they just never have linemates that can score with them. Oh, and the line I bolded from you was not heterosexual. No, it was not.

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Old
01-15-2007, 09:56 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/

"Tom Renney reunited his traditional defensive pairings today...
outside the top group, the forward lines were...
Brendan Shanahan skating with Blair Betts and Marcel Hossa;
Krog at center between Cullen and Jed Ortmeyer;
a fourth unit of Petr Prucha, Ryan Hollweg, and either Colton Orr or Adam Hall. Jason Ward was paired with Darius Kasparaitis at defense, which isn’t a good sign for either."

I am NOT someone who's called for firing Renney, but my patience is about exhausted with him.

Why on earth did we pick up Krog? So Hollweg can go back to centering a bizarre 4th line with a tiny 30 goal scorer on one side and a guy who can't skate without falling down (this applies equally to Hall and Orr) on the other? What's the sense in dressing Orr when Janssen is in the minors and what's the sense in dressing Hall EVER over Ward?

How is Cullen, who's good enough to center the 2nd line all season, displaced from the 3rd line center spot by Krog? Don't tell me Krog looked good against Boston and deserves some kind of a legit shot. Not with Prucha ending up on the 4th line. The guy's waiver wire fodder for a reason. This is Toms, Fedyk, Tim Sweeney all over again. If he's centering anything above the 4th line, there's a problem.

I am not even going to engage the merits of Betts as a 2nd line center. This Krog thing is just too disturbing in itself. The fact that it's practice and may be just for one game doesn't make it any less so. I hate to say this, but it's way too similar to how Kovalev was utilized by Muckler right before he was traded.

What the **** is this ****. HOw is Prucha supposed to score with those line mates getting their time. WHat the **** is Renney thinking.

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Old
01-15-2007, 10:06 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRONX_MADNESS View Post
Yeah, those lines are wacky, shanny is second line for sure, but don't knock off krog just yet. He deserves 3rd line, he was never given a shot at the NHL level and I have a hunch that he can succeed given the right conditions.
Krog has played in 190 NHL games, including 67 and 80 in back to back years with the Ducks. It's hard to argue that he hasn't been given a chance to succeed. I think he's fine as a third line player, but nothing more.

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01-15-2007, 10:41 PM
  #48
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I'll offer a different view here. Consider that our opponent on Tuesday is the Devils.


No one neutralizes Jagr better than Pandolfo and Madden, and they will match him ALL NIGHT LONG

Unless, Renney juggles lines....alot

Our best game plan will be to get Jagr on some quirky lines to try to shake Pandolfo...Mixing everything up on the Devils is the way to go.

The Devils are rolling and doing so playing great team D in front of Mr. I can play every game of the season Martin Broduer

They play that D because they prepare masterfully for each opponent and than play the system...when they get into the groove they just play the system and wait for you to make a mistake and....well you know the game plan


Have to keep the Devils from EVER getting set in their game.

Have to RIDDLE Broduer with Shots. Lots of them from all 4 lines whatever they may be

Have to find a way to get JJ some space. Have to keep the Devils BENCH off it's game

Have to make no mistakes

Have to Score more Goals than we let in...


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Old
01-16-2007, 12:21 AM
  #49
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Ola

What is the purpose of placing Prucha on a line with Hollweg and Orr? You stated that these line changes are probably part of some grand design that is geared toward better play in the Spring. What could Prucha possibly learn/achieve by playing with 2 guys with no hands? I honestly would like to know what you see here that is even remotely constructive. Playing Orr/Hollweg for a stretch of games on the 1st line with Jagr would make more sense from an experimental viewpoint.

I also don't buy the accountability angle with Prucha. Compare his handling to Tjutin. They are of similar age. Tjutin has made significantly more costly errors this year. He was easily the most irresponsible player in the Ottawa game. Yet Tjutin always gets a pass due to his age. Why such disparity in the handling of the 2 players? According to this logic, benching Tjutin or even making him play forward occasionally will be helpful in preparing his play for March. What am I not seeing here?

I am not opposed to a line shake-up. Prucha needs to improve his defensive game. A rational approach to that end would be putting him on a line with Orts and Cullen. Krog can then center the 4th line. Or you can flip him with Cullen. This just doesn't make any sense.

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01-16-2007, 03:41 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
What is the purpose of placing Prucha on a line with Hollweg and Orr? You stated that these line changes are probably part of some grand design that is geared toward better play in the Spring. What could Prucha possibly learn/achieve by playing with 2 guys with no hands? I honestly would like to know what you see here that is even remotely constructive. Playing Orr/Hollweg for a stretch of games on the 1st line with Jagr would make more sense from an experimental viewpoint.
I don't know about "grand design", but I do think he is looking past this tuesday, with Ward for example.

First of all, Prucha will get a few shifts with Jagr and Holly too. Second, Prucha with thoose two have allot of responsibilitys. If Prucha pokes home a rebound with thoose two I wouldn't expect Renney to take much notice, but if he goes in and lifts that line, I think he would. Like comes back and takes care of the transition game, or starts getting several more takeaways ect.

Here is a illustration:
A. Prucha-Holly-Orr
B. Orr-Holly-Ward
C. Holly-Cullen-Orr

Which 4th line would play the best? I would personally go with C and then B. I defenitly would prefer Prucha on the wing on a scoring line over Ward and Cullen. But on a 4th line I think Ward and Cullen are better then Petr. Thats the problem. And its hear IMO where Prucha must even out the odds. I know that he have it in him. I even think he were better away from the puck last season. Its like the Montreal game, Prucha played the entire game on the 2nd line, but didn't get anything gooing at all. Barely touched the puck. If he gets enough chances this kid will finnish on a regular baisis, but he must contribute more on nights that he aren't finnishing.

Prucha were a 2-way complimantary player in Europe, last season he complimented that with scoring 30 goals. This season when it went tougher, and his confidence natrually sunk, instead of developing his 2-way game, he have lost it. Not because of lack of effort...

Everytime Prucha touches the puck at MSG the crowed goes nuts. Can you imagine the loyalty Petr must feel for them? Well the corwed at MSG would've liked him for his effort alone, scoring goals is what have made him so extremely popular. I think thats a big problem. I don't think Prucha would feel great about himself if he had a great 2-way game but didn't score any goals. Allot is won when Prucha sits down after a game and thinks "yiiieesssse" (borat style), I had a great takeaway, I brought the puck up ice a few times, I were effective on the forecheck. Instead of feeling, well I had a good game, but darn I didn't score...


Last edited by Ola: 01-16-2007 at 03:53 AM.
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