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Dec 28 at Edmonton: Downie (UBI) and Hall (flu) both skated and are expected to play

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Old
12-27-2013, 11:13 AM
  #101
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It's worth a shot, honestly. They are both smart enough to compensate for his dumbness, and maybe his physical play will create some room for them in the offensive zone.

If not, he can go to the 4th line and Downie and go back with Couts and Read.

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12-27-2013, 11:47 AM
  #102
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It's worth a shot, honestly. They are both smart enough to compensate for his dumbness, and maybe his physical play will create some room for them in the offensive zone.

If not, he can go to the 4th line and Downie and go back with Couts and Read.
If Downie is healthy, I just don't see a reason to break up something that was working so well.

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12-27-2013, 12:05 PM
  #103
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Something which could be a factor is that Adam Hall (fourth line) missed practice today with the flu.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/i...XmeIDreOSZs.99
Don't like what the coach does here.

"Doesn't want to disrupt the chemistry the lines have" my a.s.s.

So Downie, Couts and Read have had no chemistry?

Downie himself says he's ready to go. Don't make up anything to keep Hartnell on the second line and Vinny on the 3rd.

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12-27-2013, 12:06 PM
  #104
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If Downie is healthy, I just don't see a reason to break up something that was working so well.
Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.

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12-27-2013, 12:12 PM
  #105
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Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.
I don't know...there is a lot of people giving Raffl credit for helping that line. Because he skates so well and is fast. It gets Giroux & Voracek moving, Hartnell is like the complete opposite of Raffl.

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12-27-2013, 12:13 PM
  #106
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Berube is really making me doubt his intelligence. His lineup choices are some of the dumbest things I've ever seen. The whole Mez/Gus thing, the amount of time it took him to remove the tumor from the top line, and now he's putting that same person on one of our most important lines so it gets dragged down. How is this shut down line going to work with someone who turns the puck over every time he touches it? It won't. The only reason I could see Downie on the 4th line instead of Hartnell is that Downie needs to be slowly worked back into the lineup and isn't healthy enough to take on a lot of minutes. Other than that it's just bad coaching. I am so sick of watching Hartnell screw things up.

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12-27-2013, 12:15 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.
I dont think it is just chance that at the exact same game Raffl is put on that line they start producing. Maybe it does show that a faster player is worth playing on that line. That means players like Hartnell, Simmonds, Vinny and even B.Schenn shouldnt be on there. Downie isnt a speed demon either. Don't know who else to put there.

You dont reward a player who is playing well by demoting him. No matter if one thinks it's because of Giroux or Voracek.

Side note: Anyone else getting tired of Downie being hurt? What is it, the 4th time since he has been here?

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12-27-2013, 12:31 PM
  #108
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I dont think it is just chance that at the exact same game Raffl is put on that line they start producing. Maybe it does show that a faster player is worth playing on that line. That means players like Hartnell, Simmonds, Vinny and even B.Schenn shouldnt be on there. Downie isnt a speed demon either. Don't know who else to put there.

You dont reward a player who is playing well by demoting him. No matter if one thinks it's because of Giroux or Voracek.

Side note: Anyone else getting tired of Downie being hurt? What is it, the 4th time since he has been here?
The shooting % for that whole first line has been unsustainably high since they've been together. It's been a nice hot streak but I'm guessing in a few games the fact that they aren't actually driving the play and controlling the possession game is going to catch up to them. Having a bigger grinder on a line helps with their forechecking and creates matchup problems. Hartnell will eventually snap out of his horrendous slump (like he seems to every year) and then before you know it he'll be back up there with Giroux.

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12-27-2013, 12:38 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.
so who moves up? Hartnell? Simmonds?
I am against breaking up that top line right now. all 3 players seem to compliment each other really well. they had been looking for a combo that could get the top line going all season and now its working. leave it alone.
Hartnell doesnt deserve to be on the top line. He had his shot and failed. badly.
Keep the top line together, put Downie back on the Couturier and Read line.
if anyone should be moved to the 4th line its Schenn. He has been fairly bad for awhile now.


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12-27-2013, 01:01 PM
  #110
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Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.
Could not disagree more. Raffl is proving himself, with his consistent smart, fast, aggressive play, to be truly deserving of his spot in the 6. Not only did Vinnie rave about how much he liked playing with him, now he's spurred G and JV to life.

I don't have a problem leaving Downie on the 4th line for a game or two, until he's fully 100%, which I doubt his is, but Downie's presence on the line with Couts and Read is almost completely responsible for team's turnaround. They may resist bumping Hartnell down, as he is likely being showcased for trade. For this, I am prepared to wait a couple games, but if anyone's going to be on the 4th line, it's Hartnell, not Raffl or Downie, if I'm coaching.

Maybe we can come back from this road trip without Hartnell but with another prospect, pick or young D man?..

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12-27-2013, 02:33 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
The shooting % for that whole first line has been unsustainably high since they've been together. It's been a nice hot streak but I'm guessing in a few games the fact that they aren't actually driving the play and controlling the possession game is going to catch up to them. Having a bigger grinder on a line helps with their forechecking and creates matchup problems. Hartnell will eventually snap out of his horrendous slump (like he seems to every year) and then before you know it he'll be back up there with Giroux.
Well thats fine if they are in a hot streak. It is something that was not happening when Hartnell was on their line. Sure he can snap out of it but i wouldnt kill the rest of the line hoping every game is the game that he does. When he does look normal put him back up there because he earned it, not because of his history. Raffl has earned that spot atm.

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12-27-2013, 03:34 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
The shooting % for that whole first line has been unsustainably high since they've been together. It's been a nice hot streak but I'm guessing in a few games the fact that they aren't actually driving the play and controlling the possession game is going to catch up to them. Having a bigger grinder on a line helps with their forechecking and creates matchup problems. Hartnell will eventually snap out of his horrendous slump (like he seems to every year) and then before you know it he'll be back up there with Giroux.
I agree Hartnell will turn it around at some point, but it simply was not working on the first line and his presence was hurting the team.

Whether Raffl was a coincidence or not, there's no need to change anything until either the top line comes back down to earth or Hartnell turns it around first on another line

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12-27-2013, 03:52 PM
  #113
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Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.
Agree completely. The linchpin of the Raffl - Giroux - Voracek combo is NOT Michael Raffl. I'd like to see Brayden Schenn using his quick release to get some of the high-quality chances Giroux and Voracek can generate. Put Hartnell - Lecavalier and Simmonds on a heavy line that can win down low, and put that great Couturier line back together.

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12-27-2013, 04:37 PM
  #114
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Agree completely. The linchpin of the Raffl - Giroux - Voracek combo is NOT Michael Raffl. I'd like to see Brayden Schenn using his quick release to get some of the high-quality chances Giroux and Voracek can generate. Put Hartnell - Lecavalier and Simmonds on a heavy line that can win down low, and put that great Couturier line back together.
Where's this fabled quick release?

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12-27-2013, 05:43 PM
  #115
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Yeah I feel like it would be a mistake to break up those 3 at this point.

However, I do think it might be time to move Raffl back down the lineup despite how hot the first line has been. I think the reason Giroux and Voracek are killing it right now is because they are talented players who got off to slow starts and now the bounces are starting to go their way. It's not because Raffl was the missing piece that somehow complements those two perfectly.

There are 9 legitimate top 9 players on the team and Raffl isn't one of them. Berube shouldn't make this harder than it has to be.
If you think that Raffl doesn't deserve to be in the top 9 but Hartnell does then you either haven't watched a single game this year or you just have zero clue what you're talking about.

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12-27-2013, 05:46 PM
  #116
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Raffl's been playing good hockey. Regardless of whether or not the 1st line is producing because of Raffl, why mess with something that's working? In my eyes, Raffl has played better than anyone else in that 1st line left wing position this season; his speed, poise, and smarts are very apparent.

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12-27-2013, 05:50 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Agree completely. The linchpin of the Raffl - Giroux - Voracek combo is NOT Michael Raffl. I'd like to see Brayden Schenn using his quick release to get some of the high-quality chances Giroux and Voracek can generate. Put Hartnell - Lecavalier and Simmonds on a heavy line that can win down low, and put that great Couturier line back together.
If Berube is going to be dumb enough to take Raffl off the 1st line then he better just be flipping Schenn and Raffl around. It would be flat out stupid to have Hartnell in the top 9 over Raffl, Schenn, or Downie, let alone the top 6 over them. Do you think it's a coincidence that every line that he's been on isn't producing? No, he's the problem. You don't play an inferior player over 3 people who are doing much better just because he's been on the team longer and has a higher cap hit. That doesn't make sense.

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12-27-2013, 05:53 PM
  #118
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Raffl's been playing good hockey. Regardless of whether or not the 1st line is producing because of Raffl, why mess with something that's working? In my eyes, Raffl has played better than anyone else in that 1st line left wing position this season; his speed, poise, and smarts are very apparent.
I agree, but the only thing I would say is that Schenn hasn't been given an opportunity to play on the LW with Giroux and Voracek. There's no reason to break up the line while it's on fire but if it starts to falter and the line gets changed, Schenn should absolutely be given a chance to play there.

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12-27-2013, 06:09 PM
  #119
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I agree, but the only thing I would say is that Schenn hasn't been given an opportunity to play on the LW with Giroux and Voracek. There's no reason to break up the line while it's on fire but if it starts to falter and the line gets changed, Schenn should absolutely be given a chance to play there.
I agree. I honestly think Schenn would score 30 goals pretty easily playing on a line with Giroux and Voracek for a full year

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12-27-2013, 06:15 PM
  #120
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I agree. I honestly think Schenn would score 30 goals pretty easily playing on a line with Giroux and Voracek for a full year
I think so too, he needs to be put with high quality players if he's ever going to get even close to his potential. His play style would probably be a really good compliment for Giroux and Voracek. It seems like a lot of the time he's forced to make plays by himself but with Giroux and Voracek he can just sit there and shoot all day.

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12-27-2013, 07:25 PM
  #121
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Where's this fabled quick release?

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12-27-2013, 07:39 PM
  #122
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If Berube is going to be dumb enough to take Raffl off the 1st line then he better just be flipping Schenn and Raffl around. It would be flat out stupid to have Hartnell in the top 9 over Raffl, Schenn, or Downie, let alone the top 6 over them. Do you think it's a coincidence that every line that he's been on isn't producing? No, he's the problem. You don't play an inferior player over 3 people who are doing much better just because he's been on the team longer and has a higher cap hit. That doesn't make sense.

Hartnell is a better bet than Raffl and his upside is way higher, especially at the offensive end. His relative CF%, FF% and SF% are all better and all near tops on the team. His slump is SH%-driven. He's a bonafide top-9 player. Raffl's league equivalence from last year is around 25 points. It's an easy call. Raffl's versatility is nice for shuffling around the lineup, but his talents do not come close to cementing him in the top-6 or the top-9.

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12-27-2013, 08:01 PM
  #123
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Where's this fabled quick release?


In his pants

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12-27-2013, 09:14 PM
  #124
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Hartnell is a better bet than Raffl and his upside is way higher, especially at the offensive end. His relative CF%, FF% and SF% are all better and all near tops on the team. His slump is SH%-driven. He's a bonafide top-9 player. Raffl's league equivalence from last year is around 25 points. It's an easy call. Raffl's versatility is nice for shuffling around the lineup, but his talents do not come close to cementing him in the top-6 or the top-9.
Hartnell hasnt been playing well enough to be handed a top line spot. i dont care what he did last year. or the year before. this year he has been crap. he had his chance and he didnt play well. the top line is clicking right now. is Raffl the reason? probably not, but its working and there is little to no reason to break it up just to hope you can get Hartnell going

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12-27-2013, 11:34 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Hartnell is a better bet than Raffl and his upside is way higher, especially at the offensive end. His relative CF%, FF% and SF% are all better and all near tops on the team. His slump is SH%-driven. He's a bonafide top-9 player. Raffl's league equivalence from last year is around 25 points. It's an easy call. Raffl's versatility is nice for shuffling around the lineup, but his talents do not come close to cementing him in the top-6 or the top-9.
I don't care about stats or upsides or any of that, they don't tell the whole story. Hartnell has been absolutely terrible the last two seasons and there is zero reason for him to be in the top 9 over people who are playing better just because of what a spreadsheet shows you.

I also never said that Raffl's talent cemented him in the top 9, I said he's deserves to be there over Hartnell. He's played far better on the top line and you can call it a coincidence but the top line has been on fire since the second he was placed on it. I absolutely think that much more to do with the fact that Hartnell was taken off than that Raffl was put on, but the fact is it's working right now so switching it would be stupid.

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