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Practice Lines Monday, January 15th

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Old
01-16-2007, 04:14 AM
  #51
Ola
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While some looks at the statsheet and thinks Renney are ruining Prucha, here is a interesting quote from Shanahan:

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“There’s going to come a day when I can’t score goals like I’m accustomed to on the NHL level, and I want to make sure I’m still valuable and that my game isn’t measured on just goals,” he said. “I’ve watched too many guys who can’t score anymore and they’re discarded. My feeling over the years was to build up the rest of my game so that I wasn’t a marginal player.”
Just like there will be "a day" for Shanahan, it will always be "nights" for Prucha. Renney are obviously trying to build him up[/get him back to] to a level were he aren't a "marginal player" on nights when he aren't scoring. If it works I would call that great coaching from a great youth coach, if it doesn't work, it was a bad choice, because then we should have traded Prucha last season when his value were at its peak.

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Old
01-16-2007, 08:00 AM
  #52
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Now I've seen it all...

here's a quote from Renney from today's NY POst: "It's kind of exciting to have that depth for a change, the ability to have offense on each line but also to have a defensive conscience".

IS THIS GUY KIDDING? JASON KROG MAKES THINGS EXCITING FOR HIM? HE NOW HAS DEPTH BECAUSE OF JASON KROG, WHO HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS AS IMMONEN IN FOUR MORE GAMES IN MORE ICE TIME, AND SUPPOSEDLY PLAYING WITH HOSSA AND KOZLOV?

Sorry for the caps, I just now think that Renney's a total idiot. I don't care the outcome of tonight's game, as it will not change my thinking of this guy. I brought up points relating to Krog because Renney's looking for a balance of scoring and defensive responsibility, and with Jed on one side, I think he's thinking offense from Krog.

Honestly, I understand balance, but just like with toughness, this is unfortunately not the way to go about it. Bett's lack of offensive ability actually hurts Shanny,and his defensive ability doesn't make up for it (we saw them together in 3-4 games, generating zero points, which is not why Shanny's here). Putting a guy like Jere Lehtinen on a line with a guy like Jagr is what is meant by balance - a 20-goal scoring defensively responsible winger on a top line. It's like throwing an enforcer out there for 3 minutes on a soft team and saying they're physical. It doesn't work that way.

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01-16-2007, 08:03 AM
  #53
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ola...

I'm not sure why Prucha cannot build up all this on a second line while building on his offense. Renney's already screwed up by not finding him ice time this season. You don't come off a 30 goal in 68 game campaign by being sent to the fourth line - he did that last season. You build on the offense while trying to round out your game. Prucha has been more conscience this season compared to last. He's backchecked better and he's gotten smarter in his own zone. He has a ways to go, but there is no reason why he can't do this playing with Shanahan. I don't buy into taking away one skill to learn another - it offers a setback.

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01-16-2007, 08:12 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
There going to trade Prucha and he isn't going to turn into Hlavac he is going to turn into Amonte....AND THAT'S not even the real problem with the potential trade. The real problem is the Rangers again from Sather to Renney have killed his trade value...

It's just bad asset management...
Agreed. I wonder what other NHL coaches and GMs think of Tom Renney when they look at Prucha--a young, inexpensive player who scored 30 goals last year as a rookie--toiling on the fourth line with the likes of Ryan Hollweg and Colton Orr. The Rangers are going to end up sending the kid to another team for an inferior return, someone like Malone from Pittsburgh, and all Prucha is going to do is click with Crosby or Malkin and score 35 goals a season for the next ten years.

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01-16-2007, 08:34 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Brendan Shanahan skating with Blair Betts and Marcel Hossa;
Krog at center between Cullen and Jed Ortmeyer;
a fourth unit of Petr Prucha, Ryan Hollweg, and either Colton Orr or Adam Hall.
Jason Ward was paired with Darius Kasparaitis at defense, which isn’t a good sign for either."
Stupidity...absolute stupidity. I have always said that Renney is intelligent, but both stubborn and loyal to a fault. However, lineup like this would make me question his intelligence.

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01-16-2007, 08:35 AM
  #56
Ola
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Fleetch- I think we just "thinks" diffrently on this subject.

I don't understand how Renney "screwed up" with not finding icetime for Prucha. How many games haven't he played on the 2nd line this season? Do you mean that Renney shouldn't play Shanahan on the PP? Prucha have played in a typical 2nd line role. Its not that I expected him to score a ton in a role like that, but he aren't playing well with Cullen and Shanahan. Our 3rd line have spent more time in the attacking zone then that line. Many nights Prucha haven't been involved at all.

The diffrent between playing on a 2nd line, or a 3rd line or a 4th line is expectations. If you are out there with Shanahan on a 2nd line there are expectations to create offense on a game by game basis. 60-70 pts are whats expected.

Prucha have not gotten more involved since October. The game against Montreal were one of his worst the last 3 years. He touched the puck like 5 times in 14.5 minutes of ice time.

Anyway, I don't know how Renney are screwing it up. Prucha aren't finding his role, Prucha-Cullen-Shanahan aren't playing well. Hossa-Betts-Ward were better then Prucha-Betts-Ward. Prucha-Straka-Jagr haven't worked.

I just don't belive "duking" it out is such a great option.

I mean -- this is a typical scenario. We got a young kid, he scores allot his first season. The conditions are changed in the offseason. He can't be used in the same eviorment as the season before. He is tryed in a position that doesn't work out. What do you do? Play him in a situation where he is a bad fit (with Shanahan) or trys to find a situation, albeit smaller, were he can be successful? If youd asked me 24 month ago id still went with the successful situation.

I just can't see him suddenly developing chemistry with Shanahan. They play a fundamentally diffrent style of hockey, and besides that, both likes to go into the same areas of the ice and kind of plays the same style, besides having a 3rd party on that line thats also struggling.

I think Prucha will get gooing before this season is over, either on a 4th line that reaches the same level our 4th line did last season, and therfor takes ice from the other lines and gets and avg around 12 minutes per night, or on a 3rd line.

Though I have no problem with Renney moving him around inorder to get him gooing. Its not like Renney have stuffed Prucha away this season, expecting him to take off with minimal ice time. He have several times played on the 1st line, for the majority of the season he have played on a 2nd line, he have been tested on a 3rd line, and he have been tested on a 4th line, and he have been scratched like twice.

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Old
01-16-2007, 08:41 AM
  #57
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What is a Krog, where did it come from, and is there a cream we can use to remove it?

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01-16-2007, 08:56 AM
  #58
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This look like Tom is trying to provide more balance and scoring on all lines. Perhaps due to the fact that the strategy against the rangers has been to lock Jagrs line down and stay out of the penalty box. Without a 2nd line center to feed Shanny, that line isnt producing. If the Rangers could get scoring from the 3rd and forth lines it could better balance things out. Im sure there is flaws that can be brought up but balancing things from a offensive and defensive perspective is maybe whats being done here.

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01-16-2007, 09:15 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmieder44 View Post
This look like Tom is trying to provide more balance and scoring on all lines. Perhaps due to the fact that the strategy against the rangers has been to lock Jagrs line down and stay out of the penalty box. Without a 2nd line center to feed Shanny, that line isnt producing. If the Rangers could get scoring from the 3rd and forth lines it could better balance things out. Im sure there is flaws that can be brought up but balancing things from a offensive and defensive perspective is maybe whats being done here.
Yeah but you can analyze this all want, but who knows if hes even gonna put out these lines tonight??

He might to start the game. But then after the second whistle or a penalty kill he'll double shift Jagr to get away from Pandolfo or switch Krog to first or second line center. He's all over the place.

Hes done it several times. He constantly uses words like "cohesiveness" , "chemistry', "synergy", and "balanced" - but how are you going to develop that when you are changing lines around from shift to shift??! No wonder the Rangers are so inconsistent... they only thing consistent about the coach is his unpredictabilty.

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01-16-2007, 09:24 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I just can't see him suddenly developing chemistry with Shanahan. They play a fundamentally diffrent style of hockey, and besides that, both likes to go into the same areas of the ice and kind of plays the same style, besides having a 3rd party on that line thats also struggling.
Shanny is not the problem. Playing him with a 3rd line center like Cullen is. Shanny and Prucha do not play a different style. They are very similar. Go to the net and dig for pucks.
Quote:
I think Prucha will get gooing before this season is over, either on a 4th line that reaches the same level our 4th line did last season, and therfor takes ice from the other lines and gets and avg around 12 minutes per night, or on a 3rd line.
Playing with bubble players, out of position wings playing center and with offensively challenged 4th line players is supposed to get him going?
Quote:
Though I have no problem with Renney moving him around inorder to get him gooing. Its not like Renney have stuffed Prucha away this season, expecting him to take off with minimal ice time. He have several times played on the 1st line, for the majority of the season he have played on a 2nd line, he have been tested on a 3rd line, and he have been tested on a 4th line, and he have been scratched like twice.
He's shown more with less than other noteables that Renney has give a much longer rope to. He is a sniper and needs the PP play to gaind confidence and develop consistency with his shot. That time has been cut out from under him. Playing him with bubble players is no way to get him going.

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01-16-2007, 09:24 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmieder44 View Post
This look like Tom is trying to provide more balance and scoring on all lines. Perhaps due to the fact that the strategy against the rangers has been to lock Jagrs line down and stay out of the penalty box. Without a 2nd line center to feed Shanny, that line isnt producing. If the Rangers could get scoring from the 3rd and forth lines it could better balance things out. Im sure there is flaws that can be brought up but balancing things from a offensive and defensive perspective is maybe whats being done here.
Filtering lines 2-4 with 4th liners is no way to get balance and scoring.

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01-16-2007, 09:45 AM
  #62
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Ola...

my guess Prucha has played on lines other than the top line for 1/4 the season, and averages less than 13 minutes per game, probably less than any other second liner in the league.

Should he have played over Shanny on the PP? Actually, when Shanny was slumping and Prucha seemed to have some jump, maybe shaking things up on a PP that didn't seem to be clicking wasn't the worst idea, at least temporarily.

I don't think 70 points on the second line is a fair expectation - that's only a bit less than Nylander had on a top line with Jagr last season.

Also, when did Prucha not work well with Jagr? When they played one game together, or less than one game? That's a fair sample?

Look ola, the problem with the second line is not Prucha, it's the centerman, or lack thereof. We've already seen Betts play that center position, for 3-4 games, and the line generated zero points. So I don't see how that's the solution. In the last 10 games, Prucha has somehow managed 4 goals - 1 on the PP, so that to me suggests that perhaps his timing and confidence are coming back, and when that happens, you usually do not then throw a guy to a fourth line to play with Colton Orr and Ryan Hollweg.

And honestly, this team's fourth line will not reach last season's level - you cannot do that with Hollweg and Orr. How do you get offense out of two guys with zero points this season? It'll be difficult.

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Old
01-16-2007, 10:25 AM
  #63
Esa 10
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Ward Says He Has 'Zero' Confidence

http://blogs.nydailynews.com/rangers/

“I’m hoping to talk to Tom today to see where things are at because I know I’m pretty confused,” Ward said...

“Tom called me saying that we picked up Jason Krog on Friday,” Ward said. “In my mind, I was saying, ‘Great, I’ll get back to the wing.’ And then all of a sudden, the next words out of his mouth were: ‘You might be a healthy scratch.’ From there, I never heard anything else."

“Our line had gotten that comeback going against Ottawa (Thursday night.) I felt some confidence. Now I feel like I have zero. And I got to try out a new position in practice.”

Sounds like a classic case of "Failure to Communicate" on Tom's part. No wonder there are stories of discord in the locker-room.

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01-16-2007, 10:25 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Filtering lines 2-4 with 4th liners is no way to get balance and scoring.
We may find out soon enough. I cant see prucha being moved to the 4th line to provide additional energy and hustle.

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01-16-2007, 10:33 AM
  #65
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[QUOTE=Esa 10;7684858]http://blogs.nydailynews.com/rangers/

“I’m hoping to talk to Tom today to see where things are at because I know I’m pretty confused,” Ward said...

“Tom called me saying that we picked up Jason Krog on Friday,” Ward said. “In my mind, I was saying, ‘Great, I’ll get back to the wing.’ And then all of a sudden, the next words out of his mouth were: ‘You might be a healthy scratch.’ From there, I never heard anything else."

“Our line had gotten that comeback going against Ottawa (Thursday night.) I felt some confidence. Now I feel like I have zero. And I got to try out a new position in practice.”



WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH, do something to earn your keep. This guy is invisible night after night. I just dont have patience for athletes who cry to the media.

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01-16-2007, 10:56 AM
  #66
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I'd suggest we bring in callahan to go with Shanny. They worked together just fine against NYI for the short period Tom tried them. Cally will get the puck to Shanny and chip in a few himself. I don't understand why we don't try a kid that has proven at least at the AHL level he can score............5th ,6th in goals in the A .....good on the D side of the puck .........Don't understand the logic for at least not trying him.

Help me understand please.

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01-16-2007, 10:56 AM
  #67
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Ward's invisible?

didn't he get two points in his last game? He also has more points than Hossa and Betts while being just as good defensively. I thought Ward was better last season, and would like to see more out of him, but he's been fine. I can recall around the late-Oct/early-Nov timeframe when he was one of this team's better forwards.

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01-16-2007, 11:06 AM
  #68
Esa 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
First of all, Prucha will get a few shifts with Jagr and Holly too. Second, Prucha with thoose two have allot of responsibilitys. If Prucha pokes home a rebound with thoose two I wouldn't expect Renney to take much notice, but if he goes in and lifts that line, I think he would. Like comes back and takes care of the transition game, or starts getting several more takeaways ect....
Ola, I can understand your point much better now. In theory, this is something that might work. However, here are my counterpoints:

1) I don't think Renney is this clever. Call it cynicism, disenchantment, I just don't see this as probable motivation on Tom's part.

2) Your logic would make more sense if Krog/Cullen were centering the line, with Orr/Hollweg on the opposite wing of Prucha. I have trouble believing that even someone like Straka could accomplish the goals with Hollweg/Orr you've set out for Prucha.

3) Renney hasn't shown a pattern of this type of coaching with any other young players. Certainly not with Tjutin. A perfect candidate for this type of indoctrination would've been Dawes. Yet he was sent to Hartford precisely because Renney didn't believe this was the way to go.

In the end, I don't see the demotion as a part of some long-ranging plan. Unfortunately.

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01-16-2007, 11:59 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
didn't he get two points in his last game? He also has more points than Hossa and Betts while being just as good defensively. I thought Ward was better last season, and would like to see more out of him, but he's been fine. I can recall around the late-Oct/early-Nov timeframe when he was one of this team's better forwards.
Bravo.

Honestly I don't understand Tom Renney and the quotes from Ward indicate that most of the players are confused about their roles on the team. On any given night they might pla a different role and that might be expecting too much from some of them.

I'm sure Tom gets canned only if we miss the playoffs, but it should be a consideration whether or not that happens.

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01-16-2007, 12:08 PM
  #70
schmieder44
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
didn't he get two points in his last game? He also has more points than Hossa and Betts while being just as good defensively. I thought Ward was better last season, and would like to see more out of him, but he's been fine. I can recall around the late-Oct/early-Nov timeframe when he was one of this team's better forwards.
Great thats a total of 10 points for the year. I agree perhaps Hossa and Betts derserve this moreso, arent we splitting hairs? None of them are "getting it done".
At least Betts wins faceoffs. So he was good for a small stretch of time 3 months ago? Im sorry, its a performance business, if ward has a complaint with how its handled, he should address it with Renney not air the dirty laundry through the media.

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01-16-2007, 12:14 PM
  #71
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I'm sure Tom gets canned only if we miss the playoffs, but it should be a consideration whether or not that happens.
He is not going anywhere, no matter what, MU. Not this year. He is here for the duration of Sather's stay, which lasts through next year. If Sather is brought back, and let's face it, with his sterling record, why wouldn't he be, it is no guarantee that Renney's stay in office does not last past that.

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01-16-2007, 12:20 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
http://blogs.nydailynews.com/rangers/

“I’m hoping to talk to Tom today to see where things are at because I know I’m pretty confused,” Ward said...

“Tom called me saying that we picked up Jason Krog on Friday,” Ward said. “In my mind, I was saying, ‘Great, I’ll get back to the wing.’ And then all of a sudden, the next words out of his mouth were: ‘You might be a healthy scratch.’ From there, I never heard anything else."

“Our line had gotten that comeback going against Ottawa (Thursday night.) I felt some confidence. Now I feel like I have zero. And I got to try out a new position in practice.”

Sounds like a classic case of "Failure to Communicate" on Tom's part. No wonder there are stories of discord in the locker-room.
One game scratch, Ward is suprised, two game scratch, Ward gets "confused", third game scratched, Wards get pissed. Thats atleast one way to motivate someone.

My point, I don't feel sorry for Jason Ward. I think he got more to give.

Have he been better then Orr? Yes, defenitly! But Ward can do better, thats is IMO the only reason to hold someone accountable. Not showing up against NYI is something a finesse player can do, thoose guys goes on inspiration and timming and stuff like that. A 4th lineer goes on adrenaline, which is something you can make sure is there 82 games per season, look at Orts for example.

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Also, when did Prucha not work well with Jagr? When they played one game together, or less than one game? That's a fair sample?
I think thats the wrong perspective. We know Prucha works out well with Jagr. We know Prucha-Nylander-Jagr would have problems defensivly, we know Prucha-Straka-Jagr would have problem defensivly. So that only leaves Renney with two options, since boosting Prucha's stats aren't worth missing he PO's, Straka-Nylander-Jagr or Prucha-Betts-Jagr. I'd go with the former, we need one line that can put us on board every night. Thats Renney's options of getting Prucha time with Jagr, and I think he is making the best choice.

Quote:
Look Ola, the problem with the second line is not Prucha, it's the centerman, or lack thereof. We've already seen Betts play that center position, for 3-4 games, and the line generated zero points. So I don't see how that's the solution. In the last 10 games, Prucha has somehow managed 4 goals - 1 on the PP, so that to me suggests that perhaps his timing and confidence are coming back, and when that happens, you usually do not then throw a guy to a fourth line to play with Colton Orr and Ryan Hollweg.
The problem with the 2nd line aren't Prucha. It aren't Shanahan. But we must have three guys there that works. Right?

If Prucha-Cullen-Shanahan aren't working, whats our options? Whats the best option? Is that a option that got Prucha on it?

Well Renney have started with Prucha there for the majority of the season. But I can't blame him for trying other options.

And for all the talk about Betts on the 2nd line. Well, its quite obvious why we tryed it the first time. The team stunk, and I mean really stunk, the first weeks. Like 5 straight games were we let in 4 goals or more. Renney broke up everything for a few games, we got better, it actually turned the season around, and then got back to the lines that makes the most sense on paper. And thoose lines worked allot better then they had before the breakup. So I have a hard time understanding any critisisim against Renney for the first time he put Betts on the 2nd line.

Now we (might) play Betts there against NJD, that sweeped us in the PO's. There have been allot of talk on our team and that series. But the facts are that Gionta-Gomez-Elias killed us, not Lundqvist, not Jagr, not our D. NJD will, in a extreme fashion, match Madden and Co against JJ, Renney can apply a line that can go up against NJD's top line. Hossa-Betts have been able to get the puck down deep and circle it down low really well against some really good lines in this league. If you put Shanahan next to them against Elias they would probably do that even better, and they might even create some offense, though I would be fine if they ended up with two bagels on the scoreboard in their mini matchup against Elias. If it works, we know how to play NJD if we go up against them in March, if it doesn't its back to the drawing board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
He's shown more with less than other noteables that Renney has give a much longer rope to. He is a sniper and needs the PP play to gaind confidence and develop consistency with his shot. That time has been cut out from under him. Playing him with bubble players is no way to get him going.
If I thought Prucha only were a sniper I would have liked to see him traded 6-10 month ago. Petr Prucha have been a checkingline player his entire career. He is 25 y/o so its pretty late to start changing him now. In Europe he mainly contributed in other areas then scoring. Something he did last season in the NHL too. Thats the aspects he needs to improve. He needs to get to a level were he can contribute on nights when he aren't scoring. If that applys to Shanahan I have a heard time seeing how you think Prucha is such a great sniper that he can make a exception. He can't expect to be in a perfect enviorment his entire career.


Last edited by Ola: 01-16-2007 at 12:25 PM.
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01-16-2007, 02:15 PM
  #73
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[QUOTE=Ola;7685932]So I have a hard time understanding any critisisim against Renney for the first time he put Betts on the 2nd line.
[/QUOTE
The criticism stems from pretending that a 4th line player should be centering Shanny.
Quote:
If it works, we know how to play NJD if we go up against them in March, if it doesn't its back to the drawing board.
The very definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. Pretending that Betts is anything but a 4th line player has been a failure already. Why would the results suddenly change?
Quote:
If I thought Prucha only were a sniper I would have liked to see him traded 6-10 month ago. Petr Prucha have been a checkingline player his entire career.
And last year, he showed that he is more than simply a checking line player. He is a 2nd line sniper.
Quote:
He can't expect to be in a perfect enviorment his entire career.
The way that he has been handled is not an example of not surviving in a perfect environment. It's an example of why this organization is amongst the worst in the league for 66 years running.

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01-16-2007, 02:31 PM
  #74
Evgeny Oliker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlueSwede View Post
Why can´t we see lines like this ?

Shanahan - Nylander - Jagr
Prucha - Straka - Hossa
Ward - Krog - Cullen
Hollweg - Betts - Ortmeyer

I like those lines. I think we HAVE to put Straka as 2nd line center since we don't have anyone else who can play as the 2nd line center. Cullen won't cut it...

Finally, Renney is confusing everyone with his stupid line changes every day. He needs to find a 2nd line that works and STICK to it. He also needs to stop moving players around so much, it does confuse them and it causes a lack of chemistry.

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01-16-2007, 02:32 PM
  #75
Fletch
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Schmeider...

not sure why you'd say 'great, 10 points,' when it's a guy who's largely played the third and fourth lines, with a couple on the top line, and who gets around 12 minutes of ice time per game, some of the killing penalties. Isn't that about what you'd want from that kind of guy?

I dunno. Maybe there's no room for a Ward on this team, fine. I'll reiterate my problem with Renney: I just think things should make sense. Too much with him doesn't make sense, and I think the messages he sends aren't always crystal clear, and perhaps they should be.

Ola - I'm not convinced that Prucha on a top line makes this team that bad defensively. It didn't seem to be the case last season I'd think this season would be similar.

Criticism for Betts on a second line the first go-around is warranted. Shanahan is here to score goals. He was brought in to lead a second line that would alleviate pressure from Jagr. With Betts in that role that line scored zero goals. That's not what you want from a line with Shanahan. Did it turn the season around? I think Lundqvist playing like last season, which had nothing to do with the forwards since there seemed to be the same amount of quality chances, is what changed this season around.

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