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Dec 28 at Edmonton: Downie (UBI) and Hall (flu) both skated and are expected to play

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12-27-2013, 11:20 PM
  #126
Damaged Goods
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Hartnell hasnt been playing well enough to be handed a top line spot. i dont care what he did last year. or the year before. this year he has been crap. he had his chance and he didnt play well. the top line is clicking right now. is Raffl the reason? probably not, but its working and there is little to no reason to break it up just to hope you can get Hartnell going
Scroll up. I said I would like to see Schenn get a shot on that line. The debate was about who is the odd man out of the top-9. For me Raffl is the 10th forward, so let's not set our lineup expectations according to minuscule sample sizes and superstition.

From the day Michael Raffl was was born until December 12, 2013, he was never projected as anything more than a bottom-6 NHL winger (if that). Then he had one good week of offensive hockey on the top line. I'm glad he did. But rationally, I don't see how that's enough to push him ahead of any of our previous top-9 wingers. So now that they're all healthy, give him back the checking role that he's been doing a fine job at all year.


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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
I don't care about stats or upsides or any of that, they don't tell the whole story. Hartnell has been absolutely terrible the last two seasons and there is zero reason for him to be in the top 9 over people who are playing better just because of what a spreadsheet shows you.

I also never said that Raffl's talent cemented him in the top 9, I said he's deserves to be there over Hartnell. He's played far better on the top line and you can call it a coincidence but the top line has been on fire since the second he was placed on it. I absolutely think that much more to do with the fact that Hartnell was taken off than that Raffl was put on, but the fact is it's working right now so switching it would be stupid.
And your unsubstantiated "say so" means nothing to me either. You should re-read the post you quoted. It's about putting Schenn on the 1st line and Hartnell on the 2nd. Have a nice day.


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 12-27-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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12-27-2013, 11:42 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Scroll up. I said I would like to see Schenn get a shot on that line. The debate was about who is the odd man out of the top-9. For me Raffl is the 10th forward, so let's not set our lineup expectations according to minuscule sample sizes and superstition.

From the day Michael Raffl was was born until December 12, 2013, he was never projected as anything more than a bottom-6 NHL winger (if that). Then he had one good week of offensive hockey on the top line. I'm glad he did. But rationally, I don't see how that's enough to push him ahead of any of our previous top-9 wingers. So now that they're all healthy, give him back the checking role that he's been doing a fine job at all year.




And your unsubstantiated "say so" means nothing to me either. You should re-read the post you quoted. It's about putting Schenn on the 1st line and Hartnell on the 2nd. Have a nice day.
My "say so" is based on common sense and by actually watching the games, if you payed attention and had an open mind you'd see I was right.

And actually no, the post I quoted was about Raffl and Hartnell, Schenn doesn't matter when you're comparing those two players. You said that Hartnell was a better bet than Raffl because his offensive upside is higher and then you mentioned a bunch of stats. I said his upside and those stats don't matter because when you watch them both play you can see that Raffl, while he may be less skilled, is doing a lot of things right while Hartnell is barely doing anything useful and is doing a lot of things wrong.

Point is, it doesn't matter if it's Schenn or Raffl on the first line, Hartnell should NOT be in the top 9.

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12-27-2013, 11:57 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Hartnell is a better bet than Raffl and his upside is way higher, especially at the offensive end. His relative CF%, FF% and SF% are all better and all near tops on the team. His slump is SH%-driven. He's a bonafide top-9 player. Raffl's league equivalence from last year is around 25 points. It's an easy call. Raffl's versatility is nice for shuffling around the lineup, but his talents do not come close to cementing him in the top-6 or the top-9.
Count me on the anti hartnell group. He is slow and stupid. I think he thinks he was a sniper after his contract year success and that delusion has hurt him. His snap back to reality has lead him to a small come back as of late.

Raffl has showed so much recently mad deserves to stay where he is. Just look at the good teams around the league. It pays to insert youth. I'm with Larry we need to trade him ASAP

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12-28-2013, 12:05 AM
  #129
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Count me on the anti hartnell group. He is slow and stupid. I think he thinks he was a sniper after his contract year success and that delusion has hurt him. His snap back to reality has lead him to a small come back as of late.

Raffl has showed so much recently mad deserves to stay where he is. Just look at the good teams around the league. It pays to insert youth. I'm with Larry we need to trade him ASAP
I agree with everything other than the bolded. Trading him immediately sounds good to me but if they're patient and trade him in a few months at the trade deadline I'm sure they could get more for him.

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12-28-2013, 12:15 AM
  #130
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My "say so" is based on common sense and by actually watching the games, if you payed attention and had an open mind you'd see I was right.

And actually no, the post I quoted was about Raffl and Hartnell, Schenn doesn't matter when you're comparing those two players. You said that Hartnell was a better bet than Raffl because his offensive upside is higher and then you mentioned a bunch of stats. I said his upside and those stats don't matter because when you watch them both play you can see that Raffl, while he may be less skilled, is doing a lot of things right while Hartnell is barely doing anything useful and is doing a lot of things wrong.

Point is, it doesn't matter if it's Schenn or Raffl on the first line, Hartnell should NOT be in the top 9.
I disagree that Raffl is less skilled than Hartnell. He makes excellent passes both off the rush and the cycle, shows creativity Hartnell has never experienced even in his dreams, and is faster and delivers more effective body checks in a game than Hartnell does too.

He may just be starting out, but he's proven he can play. He's 24, IIRC, not a young kid, so he's more like Read, just a late bloomer - and blooming he is. I like Hartnell, and if we didn't have Raffl, Schenn and Read or Downie playing better than him, there would be room for him in the top 9. All healthy, there isn't. You just have to watch the games to realize that, and if you don't, it's a viewing comprehension issue...

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12-28-2013, 01:03 AM
  #131
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I disagree that Raffl is less skilled than Hartnell. He makes excellent passes both off the rush and the cycle, shows creativity Hartnell has never experienced even in his dreams, and is faster and delivers more effective body checks in a game than Hartnell does too.

He may just be starting out, but he's proven he can play. He's 24, IIRC, not a young kid, so he's more like Read, just a late bloomer - and blooming he is. I like Hartnell, and if we didn't have Raffl, Schenn and Read or Downie playing better than him, there would be room for him in the top 9. All healthy, there isn't. You just have to watch the games to realize that, and if you don't, it's a viewing comprehension issue...
I actually also think that Raffl is more skilled than Hartnell, at least at this point. I was just saying that for the sake of argument. Even if Raffl was less skilled, he's playing much better than Hartnell this season, which is all that matters.

And your 2nd paragraph is exactly what I've been saying.

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12-28-2013, 07:17 AM
  #132
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I actually also think that Raffl is more skilled than Hartnell, at least at this point. I was just saying that for the sake of argument. Even if Raffl was less skilled, he's playing much better than Hartnell this season, which is all that matters.

And your 2nd paragraph is exactly what I've been saying.
I think Raffls skills are being underrated due to the fact he played Allsvenkan instead of SHL.

He outscored the guy who is 5th in SHL scoring now last year (almost PPG), on the same team but Raffl had more defensive responsibility.

SHL has a 0.78 difficulty rating compared to the NHL... compared with a 0.41 of the AHL.

That means the average SHL player who comes over scores 78% of the rate they did in the SHL. Now Raffl ofc did not play SHL, but he played with or against several guys, and was better than them, who are now looking very good in the SHL (Ryno, Blomqvist, Aulin, Aberg and Wennberg.)

Also, during the lockout he scored at a similar or higher rate (0.95) in the same league as: Letestu (0.57), Landeskog (0.82), F. Forsberg (0.87), Berglund (1.07), Kopitar (1.10).

Read, Backlund and Hagelin were the only guys over 1.2PPG in the lockout.

I'm not saying he is more talented than Hartnell, or will be more than a 3W long term... but he has at least some offensive acumen and can play hockey... you can see that when you watch him.

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12-28-2013, 09:56 AM
  #133
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I agree with everything other than the bolded. Trading him immediately sounds good to me but if they're patient and trade him in a few months at the trade deadline I'm sure they could get more for him.
Yea that could return more at the deadline. And his value should increase one would think. But teams in the playoffs usually don't trade players like Hartnell at the deadline. Unless it's for a great improvement in D etc which is not going to happen.

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12-28-2013, 11:50 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Scroll up. I said I would like to see Schenn get a shot on that line. The debate was about who is the odd man out of the top-9. For me Raffl is the 10th forward, so let's not set our lineup expectations according to minuscule sample sizes and superstition.

From the day Michael Raffl was was born until December 12, 2013, he was never projected as anything more than a bottom-6 NHL winger (if that). Then he had one good week of offensive hockey on the top line. I'm glad he did. But rationally, I don't see how that's enough to push him ahead of any of our previous top-9 wingers. So now that they're all healthy, give him back the checking role that he's been doing a fine job at all year.




And your unsubstantiated "say so" means nothing to me either. You should re-read the post you quoted. It's about putting Schenn on the 1st line and Hartnell on the 2nd. Have a nice day.
so fine. lets break up a line thats clicking. Lets put Schenn there(who doesnt deserve it btw). what happens if they dont find chemistry and it doesnt work?
I know what Raffl is. Many folks did not know who this guy was before the Flyers signed him(myself included) but right now for whatever reason the top line is working. As I said earlier, remember when we all were looking for that combo to get the top line going? They had only one line who was doing all the heavy lifting(Read/Couts/Downie). the top line was doing nothing.
I get what you are saying, but right now until things change I would prefer to leave the top line alone. if the top line stops working then you adress it. you dont change it because x player has more upside then z player who has been playing very well.

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12-28-2013, 12:08 PM
  #135
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Yea that could return more at the deadline. And his value should increase one would think. But teams in the playoffs usually don't trade players like Hartnell at the deadline. Unless it's for a great improvement in D etc which is not going to happen.
They should if they don't need him and they already have better players on the team to take his spot.

I'd love for them to get a good pick out of him.

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12-28-2013, 12:12 PM
  #136
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i would bet that the Flyers are going to hang around in the playoff hunt so they will not be sellers. besides the organization loves Hartnell. even if he sucks.

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12-28-2013, 01:39 PM
  #137
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Hall is in tonight. Figures to C line with Downie and Rinaldo
Source: Sam C @ Philly Inq.

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12-29-2013, 12:17 AM
  #138
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so fine. lets break up a line thats clicking. Lets put Schenn there(who doesnt deserve it btw). what happens if they dont find chemistry and it doesnt work?
I know what Raffl is. Many folks did not know who this guy was before the Flyers signed him(myself included) but right now for whatever reason the top line is working. As I said earlier, remember when we all were looking for that combo to get the top line going? They had only one line who was doing all the heavy lifting(Read/Couts/Downie). the top line was doing nothing.
I get what you are saying, but right now until things change I would prefer to leave the top line alone. if the top line stops working then you adress it. you dont change it because x player has more upside then z player who has been playing very well.
The top line was goal-less and -2 at ES tonight. They were goal-less vs Minnesota the game before and in the loss to Columbus before that (Giroux and Voracek got points on Simmonds' goals). They've been shut out for 3 games and are leaning heavily on the top PP unit for offense. Raffl is who we thought he was. A player without top line offensive talent. Put Schenn's trigger-pull with Giroux and Voracek's creativity and vision and you've instantly got yourself a more dangerous top line at ES.

None of the currently assembled ES lines are unimpeachable. Downie would be better used back on the Couturier line where he is a proven success. Lecavalier is a better center than Schenn. Schenn has a better one-timer for the top line than Raffl.

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12-29-2013, 12:21 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The top line was goal-less and -2 at ES tonight. They were goal-less vs Minnesota the game before and in the loss to Columbus before that (Giroux and Voracek got points on Simmonds' goals). They've been shut out for 3 games and are leaning heavily on the top PP unit for offense. Raffl is who we thought he was. A player without top line offensive talent. Put Schenn's trigger-pull with Giroux and Voracek's creativity and vision and you've instantly got yourself a more dangerous top line at ES.

None of the currently assembled ES lines are unimpeachable. Downie would be better used back on the Couturier line where he is a proven success. Lecavalier is a better center than Schenn. Schenn has a better one-timer for the top line than Raffl.
Schenn does not deserve top line minutes.

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12-29-2013, 12:33 AM
  #140
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I don't care what he deserves, I care about what would help the team win. How does he "deserve" to be 2C any more than he "deserves" to be 1LW? It's an irrelevant consideration. Both roles are just as important. I think his skill-set is more likely to help the team as the 1LW (where he is able to lean on more talented players) rather than continuing to struggle as the 2C where he compounds the team's ES scoring woes. He got more TOI than Raffl tonight anyway, especially at ES.

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12-29-2013, 11:00 AM
  #141
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I don't care what he deserves, I care about what would help the team win. How does he "deserve" to be 2C any more than he "deserves" to be 1LW? It's an irrelevant consideration. Both roles are just as important. I think his skill-set is more likely to help the team as the 1LW (where he is able to lean on more talented players) rather than continuing to struggle as the 2C where he compounds the team's ES scoring woes. He got more TOI than Raffl tonight anyway, especially at ES.
I agree. Schenn played his best when he keeps his game simple. They need to put him with players that will allow him to just forecheck and go to the net.

It isn't about desrves, its about getting the best out of a young player by putting him in a spot to succeed like they have done with Coots and Simmonds.

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12-29-2013, 03:57 PM
  #142
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Why do some people insist on reinventing the wheel? If something is working out great, don't make it harder by trying and coming up with something else. Stick with what works until it doesn't.

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12-30-2013, 03:19 PM
  #143
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Why do some people insist on reinventing the wheel? If something is working out great, don't make it harder by trying and coming up with something else. Stick with what works until it doesn't.
ES scoring has been pretty crappy all year and they haven't come close to maximizing the output of most of their top-6 forwards. They need to try to keep making improvements until they get satisfactory production for an extended period of time. Read - Couturier - Downie is the only line that's "clicked" for a good stretch of games. None of the other combos should be treated as "untouchable."

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12-30-2013, 03:31 PM
  #144
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The top line was goal-less and -2 at ES tonight. They were goal-less vs Minnesota the game before and in the loss to Columbus before that (Giroux and Voracek got points on Simmonds' goals). They've been shut out for 3 games and are leaning heavily on the top PP unit for offense. Raffl is who we thought he was. A player without top line offensive talent. Put Schenn's trigger-pull with Giroux and Voracek's creativity and vision and you've instantly got yourself a more dangerous top line at ES.

None of the currently assembled ES lines are unimpeachable. Downie would be better used back on the Couturier line where he is a proven success. Lecavalier is a better center than Schenn. Schenn has a better one-timer for the top line than Raffl.
same as last year. This is why i think we should split up voracek and giroux.

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01-01-2014, 01:09 AM
  #145
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Where's this fabled quick release?
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Nearly identical goals too. A good number of his snipes have come off of broken plays. Another reason I think he'd be great at picking up the garbage for Voracek and Giroux.

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