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Trade Rumors/Speculation Part X: Sather Falls Asleep on the Phone

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Old
12-29-2013, 07:53 PM
  #26
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Girardi and NYR 2nd for Sbisa, Ducks 1st and Sens 1st.

Never would happen but it would be nice!
Something along these lines could thin us but get value and help with the cap.

Think girardi + 2 NYR 2nds (2014 +15)
for
Ducks 1st, Sens 1st is more Duck friendly

we will take a body or 2 for cap
But this move gets us 3 firsts!

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Old
12-29-2013, 07:58 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Something along these lines could thin us but get value and help with the cap.

Think girardi + 2 NYR 2nds (2014 +15)
for
Ducks 1st, Sens 1st is more Duck friendly

we will take a body or 2 for cap
But this move gets us 3 firsts!
screw being Duck friendly.

Not looking to do the Ducks any frickin favors.

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Old
12-29-2013, 07:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
team as a whole is struggling.

Healthy team? defensively Zuccs, Hagelin, D. Moore, Boyle are all on par with Smith defensively.

and all four are 3rd/4th liners.

the other two are Dorsett and Pouliot who are behind Smith for sure as players.

Not moving Brassard for Z. Smith

Terribad asset management.

Brassard plays like a 3rd liner anyway so whats the difference? Replace D Moore with Smith and its an upgrade to the bottom 6

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12-29-2013, 08:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Something along these lines could thin us but get value and help with the cap.

Think girardi + 2 NYR 2nds (2014 +15)
for
Ducks 1st, Sens 1st is more Duck friendly

we will take a body or 2 for cap
But this move gets us 3 firsts!

We need a player back, cant give up Girardi for 2 unknown picks, thats just stupid

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Old
12-29-2013, 08:15 PM
  #30
Glen Teflon Sather
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Question for all of the Lundqvist fan boys, I keep hearing the excuse that the defense sucks and it's their fault, so does that mean Torts was right playing a 6 goalie zone defense? Lundqvist sure seemed protected a lot better under that system.

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Old
12-29-2013, 08:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
Question for all of the Lundqvist fan boys, I keep hearing the excuse that the defense sucks and it's their fault, so does that mean Torts was right playing a 6 goalie zone defense? Lundqvist sure seemed protected a lot better under that system.

They won 52 games and made an ECF with that 6 goalie system, were you *****ing then?

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12-29-2013, 08:27 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersHank View Post
They won 52 games and made an ECF with that 6 goalie system, were you *****ing then?
You completely misunderstood my point. The main point is Lundqvist was protected and sheltered under Renney and Torts. You now see a mortal Lundqvist because the team's giving up more chances. We went from "best defense in the league" to "omg our d sucks"

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Old
12-29-2013, 08:29 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
You completely misunderstood my point. The main point is Lundqvist was protected and sheltered under Renney and Torts. You now see a mortal Lundqvist because the team's giving up more chances. We went from "best defense in the league" to "omg our d sucks"
our defense was absolute trash under renney. we had a collection of 4s and 5s playing on our backend. lundqvist made them look respectable.

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Old
12-29-2013, 08:31 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
our defense was absolute trash under renney. we had a collection of 4s and 5s playing on our backend. lundqvist made them look respectable.
And Renney played the 1-4 and got the best out of his team

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12-29-2013, 08:44 PM
  #35
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Goals against under Renney:

2005-2006 4th
2006-2007 9th
2007-2008 4th
2008-2009 year he was fired 6th, yeah I'm not buying the whole defense was trash argument. No doubt Henrik was great those years but he was protected a lot better in Renney's system than he is now playing behind a much better defense corps. This team can't handle man to man, they just can't. Lundqvist looks human this year because the defense is different, more holes, more chances.

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Old
12-29-2013, 08:44 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by RangersHank View Post
Brassard plays like a 3rd liner anyway so whats the difference? Replace D Moore with Smith and its an upgrade to the bottom 6
difference is that I would rather have a 40+ point 3rd line center than a guy that struggles to surpass 25pts.

we had that in Boyle. It got us no where.

rangers lack size and skill. Smith addresses the size issue, but creates more of a hole in terms of skill.

I agree that replacing Moore with Smith is an upgrade.

I just don't see the sense in trading an offensive player like Brassard for yet another grunt.

If Brassard and MDZ are being shipped off together, then we need a legit 2nd line or better talent back.

Not a 3rd liner and a defenceman that would have real issues cracking the Rangers D (talking Gryba not Methot)

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Old
12-29-2013, 08:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersHank View Post
They won 52 games and made an ECF with that 6 goalie system, were you *****ing then?
I was.

hated the system we played while still being impressed that we bent so much during the season but never broke.

The fact that we could not score outside of Gaborik that year was clearly evident in the PO's and we were lucky to have gotten as far as we did.

the style is and was perimeter in nature and the propensity to block shots as a defensive style is un healthy. The more you do it, the odds go up that eventually one is going to nick you real good and put you on the shelf.

I enjoyed the success, but to think that was sustainable is a little head in the sand.

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Old
12-29-2013, 09:38 PM
  #38
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Lundqvist looked super human when he willed this team to the playoffs. Numbers tell part of a story but you are being mislead if you think Lundqvist was sheltered under Renney. He would weather wave after wave of attack.

They say GAA is a team stat but save % is an individual one... he posted some of the best 20-30 game save % stretches in history at the end of the Jagr years.

Now that he is locked up long term, you have to hope the contract was a huge distraction and then pray the change in system accounts for the rest.

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Old
12-29-2013, 10:56 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
This upcoming off-season, with all the expiring contracts, presents a rare opportunity for the head office to build something to last. If I were czar of the universe, I would have brought in a new GM at the beginning of this season, giving him a year to assess the roster, formulate a plan for the off-season, and execute. I'm not thrilled with the idea of giving Sather the keys for the 2014 offseason. If Gorton is the heir, let him run things this off-season.
Not sure how much difference that will make with sather looking over his shoulder.

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Old
12-29-2013, 11:28 PM
  #40
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It seems like the Rangers are trying out both McIlrath and Allen for the team right now. McIlrath wasn't quite ready. Allen looked good. If he shows he is ready, that allows for them to deal at least 1 dman for a package that does not include a NHL dman. That's good news.

With Staal close, does that mean a MDZ trade is close?

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Old
12-29-2013, 11:51 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
Goals against under Renney:

2005-2006 4th
2006-2007 9th
2007-2008 4th
2008-2009 year he was fired 6th, yeah I'm not buying the whole defense was trash argument. No doubt Henrik was great those years but he was protected a lot better in Renney's system than he is now playing behind a much better defense corps. This team can't handle man to man, they just can't. Lundqvist looks human this year because the defense is different, more holes, more chances.
Man on Man D is used by only a number of teams in the NHL. As a system for 200 x 85 rink, it leaves a lot of gaps to be exploited if the defender is a step behind, either cause of speed, position, or read. That's why if one man loses or gets exploited on his man on man assignment, then a scoring chance results, or there is a zone pressure because of successive break downs or the team in recovery mode.

EDM uses it, DET uses it, TB uses it. It's built more more for slick skating teams that can defend with the stick and get takeaways. Unfortunately this means when the team has the puck the goalie better be good at handling the puck and not letting teams establish a forecheck to begin with.

Plus you need very smart, very good skating defensemen that can really make good reads and move the puck. This is why you see McD and Stralman shine under this system.

G looks bad or exploited from time to time because he's getting caught on neutral zone turn overs when the Rangers zone entry fails. DZ looks bad because his reads are slow. John Moore gets mesmerized by his assignment and doesn't read his teammates so there's poor gap control. Staal's never been a good puck handler so he's getting caught trying to move the puck faster than his hands allow him to.

These are caveats to Man on Man D that's lead to this record and a lack of defensive structure or identity. Better part of the last decade other teams knew they were going to have a tough time scoring against the Rangers. Unfortunately for the Rangers, they have a tough time scoring against other teams.

Man on Man D changes part of that, adding in higher elements of risk; and when that risk is taken and not rewarded, it's almost always a high quality scoring chance going the other way.

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Old
12-30-2013, 12:03 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
It seems like the Rangers are trying out both McIlrath and Allen for the team right now. McIlrath wasn't quite ready. Allen looked good. If he shows he is ready, that allows for them to deal at least 1 dman for a package that does not include a NHL dman. That's good news.

With Staal close, does that mean a MDZ trade is close?
I think so. Ultimately he's the only guy they can move and make the team better now and in the future. It'll be sad watching him leave as I looked at that defense as a long term core, but if they want to go with this system, and he can't play well or his nerves are too tight for him to make effective reads like it looks. I think he gets moved because the Rangers want a defense that's similar to the 2006 Hurricanes.

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Old
12-30-2013, 02:02 AM
  #43
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If they're gonna move Del Z, I'm fine with taking back a veteran contract if it means they get a piece for the future. I wouldn't even mind someone like a Colin Greening.

It doesn't have to be a first line talent, just get a solid young player who will make the bottom two lines competent over the next 5-6 years. I'm fine with Smith from OTT. Smith-Pelley from Anaheim is someone else in that mold. They're not gonna get a Nieto, Coyle, Connolly, etc. for Del Z at this point unless it's a mega blockbuster.

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Old
12-30-2013, 05:59 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
This upcoming off-season, with all the expiring contracts, presents a rare opportunity for the head office to build something to last. If I were czar of the universe, I would have brought in a new GM at the beginning of this season, giving him a year to assess the roster, formulate a plan for the off-season, and execute. I'm not thrilled with the idea of giving Sather the keys for the 2014 offseason. If Gorton is the heir, let him run things this off-season.
If there is a succession plan in place,Gorton should heavily involved in the personnel decisions. You can say he is already involved. Nick Kypreos reported a few weeks ago on Sportsnet about talk involving changes in the Rangers front office. Sather doesn't want to be the GM going into next season. If its Gorton's ball,he should make the calls. When things go bad,Dolan is going to blame him. Look at what goes on with the Knicks. Sather is teflon with Dolan. If Gorton doesn't want to sign Girardi and/or Callahan to long-term contracts and Sather does,Gorton should get his way. Sather will be in Banff with Ann when the 6/7 year contract has 4/5 years remaining and then it Gorton's problem. Same thing with Richards. Gorton was involved with the Lundqvist contract as with all of the contracts. They agreed to give him 7 years.

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12-30-2013, 07:12 AM
  #45
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Has Del Zotto played defense before? He looks lost.

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12-30-2013, 07:21 AM
  #46
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Has Del Zotto played defense before? He looks lost.
He can't play man-man obviously.

There is little discussion among NY Media on how we switch from man-man from game to game and especially between Hank and Talbot. Last night we played an aggressive man-man, we definitely did not against Wasington for example...

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Old
12-30-2013, 07:37 AM
  #47
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He can't play man-man obviously.

There is little discussion among NY Media on how we switch from man-man from game to game and especially between Hank and Talbot. Last night we played an aggressive man-man, we definitely did not against Wasington for example...
There was a play in the second period when he was on the ice with Girardi. Del Zotto drifted to the right side of the ice. Girardi was there. Del Zotto needs a change of scenery.

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12-30-2013, 07:47 AM
  #48
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Agreed. I think he can flourish elsewhere, and I think that will upset some fans in hindsight, but I still believe the right move for us is to deal him now.

Originally I didn't wanna see him go. I wanted to see what he could become but I don't think he will become that here, whatever it may be.

I'm also OK with moving Girardi depending on the kind of contract he wants and what the plans are moving forward, but I will admit to being concerned about the D overall with Staal's health status. Losing Girardi AND Staal would really hurt, even if Allen and McIlrath were ready now/soon. So I definitely think we need a vet D back if both are to be moved. Someone with more than a season under his belt ideally.

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12-30-2013, 08:13 AM
  #49
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At this point I'd prefer Del Zotto to sustain a minor injury instead of diminishing his trade value further

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Old
12-30-2013, 08:23 AM
  #50
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There was a play in the second period when he was on the ice with Girardi. Del Zotto drifted to the right side of the ice. Girardi was there. Del Zotto needs a change of scenery.
I'm fine with not moving DZ right now if all the offers out there are garbage (like the rumored OTT deals).

If, on the other hand, Sather is just holding out in some vain hope that DZ will turn his game around and increase his value, or some team will get mega-desperate and overpay, well then shame on him.

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