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Roloson: The Butterfly Technique

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Old
01-15-2007, 06:31 PM
  #26
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I can't disagree with the technicalities you raise regarding Roloson's technique Hemmer, cause I am not a goalie & goaltender technique is the one facet of the game I probably know the least about - suffice it to say though that I do know a good goaltender when I see one.

And the Roloson of last season's playoffs & the early stages of this campaign in my opinion was a good goalie. Nay....an excellent goalie.

So my question is this:
What causes a goaltender like Dwayne Roloson who clearly has the ability to excell at this level (and has shown us all he can do just that) to suddenly fall in a heap & further, what causes his technique to go to crap also? (We all know the D in front of him at the moment are brutal, so let's leave that out of the equation for now).

I guess the other question is do you believe his technique has indeed gone to crap relative to the playoffs last season or has it always been lacking & it's only recently that shooters have learnt to exploit him?

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01-15-2007, 06:38 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil View Post
I can't disagree with the technicalities you raise regarding Roloson's technique Hemmer, cause I am not a goalie & goaltender technique is the one facet iof the game I probably know the least about - suffice it to say though that I do know a good goaltender when I see one.

And the Roloson of last season's playoffs 7 the early stages of this campaign in my opinion was a good goalie. Nay....an excellent goalie.

So my question is this:
What causes a goaltender like Dwayne Roloson who clearly has the ability to excell at this level (and has shown us all he can do just that) to suddenly fall in a heap & further, what causes his technique to go to crap also? (We all know the D in front of him at the moment are brutal, so let's leave that out of the equation for now).

I guess the other question is do you believe his technique has indeed gone to crap relative to the playoffs last season or has it always been lacking & it's only recently that shooters have learnt to exploit him?
One his technique has not changed from what it was last year he is playing the exact same way as he did before. The problem that I suspect is number one he is trying to do too much out there. Added to that look where the shots are comming from, he is getting FAR better quality shots than he did last year in the playoffs when the Oilers were able to contain the others to the outside. If you plot where goals are comming from I would venture to guess that there are many many more chances and goals comming from high scoring areas - the slot, and there is no way you can ignore that fact as that is the single most important reason he is no on the same level as he was last year.

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01-15-2007, 06:45 PM
  #28
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That's a fair & reasonable summization....but then you'd have to venture a guess & say that Roloson is in fact not as good a goalie as his play in the playoffs would have had us all believe?

A truly good goalie would stop far more of those better quality scoring chances & shots he's seeing now?

The more we disect Roli's game here, the more concerned I am becoming, considering the amount & length of his contract.

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01-15-2007, 06:52 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil View Post
That's a fair & reasonable summization....but then you'd have to venture a guess & say that Roloson is in fact not as good a goalie as his play in the playoffs would have had us all believe?

A truly good goalie would stop far more of those better quality scoring chances & shots he's seeing now?

The more we disect Roli's game here, the more concerned I am becoming, considering the amount & length of his contract.
when you are constantly getting good scoring chances against you are going to let in more goals - look at Calgary as a prime example how many good scoring chances do they allow ? very little. How many times are they outnumbered infront of the net ? very little. The notion that Roli is not as good as we think is just utter nonsense - he is what he is what most of us have said 3rd best in the division. Added to that he is where he has been where he was last year with us in save percentage and only as slighlty higher GAA then last year with the Oilers so obviously he is saving the same amount of shots in proportion to what he did last year.

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01-15-2007, 06:54 PM
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Quick question... how many of these 5-hole goals are when he is moving laterally?

It's not like the players walk straight in on him and beat him 5-hole (which would be an issue). I've noticed a lot of times that he gives up goals between the legs when he is forced to move from one-side to another.

As for 5 hole goals being more demoralizing... this isn't 1950 when goalies stood with their legs together anymore. Almost everyone I've ever heard of who claims 5-hole goals are bad goals are older people.

The 5 hole is like any other open area. If it's a clean look, you should stop it. The reason the 5 hole has opened up is to allow goaltenders to stop those shots to the corners that you'd see them give up all the time 20+ years ago.

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01-15-2007, 07:00 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Quick question... how many of these 5-hole goals are when he is moving laterally?

It's not like the players walk straight in on him and beat him 5-hole (which would be an issue). I've noticed a lot of times that he gives up goals between the legs when he is forced to move from one-side to another.

As for 5 hole goals being more demoralizing... this isn't 1950 when goalies stood with their legs together anymore. Almost everyone I've ever heard of who claims 5-hole goals are bad goals are older people.

The 5 hole is like any other open area. If it's a clean look, you should stop it. The reason the 5 hole has opened up is to allow goaltenders to stop those shots to the corners that you'd see them give up all the time 20+ years ago.
that is true, and that is what happened on the Phaneuf goal. Stick discipline is most of the issue though when he does get beat, just like every other goalie. If there was one thing that I think he could do that will help him on passes from behind the goal line to the shooter at the top of the crease is do the knee drop move (where you drop your far side knee so it is flat on the goaline - the picture of Lundquist posted in here shows it), and that way he takes that 5 hole away.

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01-15-2007, 08:15 PM
  #32
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That or how many times does he actually get shots to the five hole that he stopped? Yet people only focus on the goals? And nash I don't think he needs to get deeper in his stances as he is pretty deep already and if he goes any deeper he will end up lossing some of his mobility. But basically gr8haluschak has covered everything and I don't think I need to repeat it.

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01-16-2007, 01:01 AM
  #33
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i couldnt read every post so i dunno if this has been said... roli may allow the extra occasional 5-hole goal because of what you've pointed out, but his arms are closing the seven hole (just as popular these days) and this also helps with rebound control, at which roloson is one of the leagues best. Not that I'm questioning Patrick Roy's positioning (he's the best ever), but he leaves the 7 hole open...just a different philosophy from a different school of thought. I'm sure its one of the things macT was referring to when he said Roli taught him alot about goaltending

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01-16-2007, 01:00 PM
  #34
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This is such a great thread; I've learned so much from reading it. Carry on, gentlemen.....

Kiitos paljon,
Susanna

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01-16-2007, 02:06 PM
  #35
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Although someone said we cannot bring defense into this but I beleive that is the root of the problem. Roli has shown he can play at an elite level but when he first came over from Mini he looked bad just as he does now. Once the team started to figure out how to play infront of him and he looked really good.

Currently the defense along with the offence is brutal letting the other teams take high percentage chances over and over again and Roli's confidence has suffered.

Anyone that has played goal has had games that you feel that you played well but were blown out. If this happens to you over and over again your confidence goes in tank. This is where you start to change your game and do too much which starts the downward spiral.

I agree Roli has some issues but they all stem from the teams poor defensive support and the lack of scoring has not helped either.

but that's just my opinion.

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01-16-2007, 05:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by slapshot™ View Post
I'm a 44 year old goaltender that used to play against Fuhr in minor hockey, so what the heck do I know!?!? *L*
Not alot, considering that in those days the goaltending techniques were atrocious. I once had a goalie coach for one of my teams who had played for the red wings in the mid-late 60's. The guy was telling me that the butterfly sucked and the only way to play is stand-up/pad stack. Think of a Kirk McLean and Bill Ranford hybrid.

I also was a student of Stevenson's up until a couple years ago when I quit hockey to go to school. Some of the people on this board probably know me from playing against me or maybe even attending some of Stevenson's camps (whether a player or a coach). He used to teach the half butterfly technique up until about 7-8 years ago now, until he hired one of his instructors named "Neil." I can't remember his last name.

Anyways, this guy had basically revolutionized goaltending techniques in Edmonton, while he was only working for John for about 4-6 months. He was the originator (well, here anways) of the "form a solid wall with the pads, gloves out front and no upper body mobility" style. The transition from John's old technique to this new one took a few games to get used to but was much more successful.

Anyone here who has played a decent level of hockey (AA/AAA, Alberta Cup, Junior A, etc) knows that when you drop into the butterfly, you drop STRAIGHT down, not slightly forward or slightly back. As soon as you fall forward, you lose your flare and you get beat around you. As soon as you fall back your five hole opens up. When you drop straight down you can keep your flare and your pads locked together so even if your stick isn't in position, as long as the puck isn't flat on the ice you'll stop it.

"If you consider there are only 5 places to score. High glove, low glove, high blocker, low blocker, and five hole, then there is a 1 in 5 chance that they will score five hole. 1 in 5 is 20% so he's right on average"

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Goalies aren't shooter tutors, they are motile.
You can beat a goalie above the shoulders (hemsky almost beat kipper like that last game), in between the arms and the body (bad goal), top corners, bottom corners, five hole (usually a bad goal), dekes, passes across (aka around the goalie) etc. I just listed 10 or 11 (depends how you count it) simple ways of how goals go in, there aren't just the basic 5 areas that people learn about in novice.

Willyjagr has it 100% correct. I probably know you too :p You sound like Jeremy or at least like you worked for John.

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Originally Posted by notman_72 View Post
Anyone that has played goal has had games that you feel that you played well but were blown out. If this happens to you over and over again your confidence goes in tank. This is where you start to change your game and do too much which starts the downward spiral.
I'll have to agree with you there. I remember in midget when we played on of the Calgary AAA teams. We lost 16-1 and my coach wouldn't pull me. I even gave up after it was 15-1, letting in a softie from the point by literally pushing out of the way because I got sick of the garbage. Long story short, the shots were 118-9 (you do the math for save % and factor in fatigue) and although I didn't play bad, the confidence was in the tank for the next few games.

Anyways that was my version of a marathon post and I'll probably think of some more later.

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01-16-2007, 05:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
They are when he goes down and it is clear the puck is staying down low, the shot has come almost all of the time. There is no problem with that if that is what he feels comfortable with it added to that like people have said already he is forcing the guys to pick corners and obviously that is not happening that much as you yourself have said most of his goals are 5 hole. Added to that watch his gloves when the shots are going high from further out - they usually stay up where they are supose to be.
I realize that there is no problem with that if that is what he feels comfortable with, however, from what I've watched and from what I've seen again going through highlights is that Roloson doesn't only go down like that when its in tight of if he knows the puck is going down low, he goes down like that every single time. Maybe I need to take a second look, I'll look a little closer in the following games.
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What are you watching of you see his stick in the air ? that is just nonsense that he has his stick in the air, his fault is when he is in the block is he has his blocker turned too much and it is not covering the 5 hole. Added to that if you saw where I put the goalie coaches comment it was after your point about him going into the block
Whether his stick is misplaced because of his blocker or not, its misplaced. And that misplacement is causing alot of unnecessary goals and there is no denying that.

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That is not alot of flair, his butterfly wideness is a result of him having his knees apart, his pads are nearly straight back not angled out to the sides and he has ALWAYS been like that. Roloson keeps his knees together and the pads are angled out somewhat
I guess you and I could post picture after picture and create an argument for those pictures and still not accomplish anything because as we both know goalies go down in different positions in different times and it is hard disecting pictures of goalies unless those pictures remain constant. Roloson's butterfly has remained constant, regardless of the situation; that being based on what I've seen.
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Loungo does have a good butterfly but he does not utilize it very well or very much as he drops straight to his knees without flaring out
Agreed completely, I think as Luongo matures (I think most people forget how young he is) he will get out of that habit and become even better then he actually is right now.

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No you made it a point to talk about his butterfly not being good as well as stick discipline
I don't mean to turn this into a pissing match, but I don't really think you know what my point was as I am expressing it? And my point is, if it wasn't clear, that his stick discipline/positioning is horrible and his butterfly block is not always being used properly.

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Tell me this how many of those goals is the puck on the ice when he is beat, a lot of time that puck is a little off the ice just above the stick blade, which is a very difficult save to make.
The way I was brought up and taught, is that five-hole goals should be very very rare. Even if it isn't as reinforced as it was when I was taught, 20% is a huge statistic.

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you're my boy hemmer time! i've been saying exactly what you've said in this post for however long now and i'll be referring them to your post. roloson's style is far from perfect and he is very lucky sometimes to even make a save doing what he does. he flops to his knees and doesn't know what to do with the rest of his body.
i nearly flipped out on roli when he let that phaneuf pp goal in in the last battle of alberta and i had some friends say i'm blind cuz he's coming off the post but from the in-net cam, you can see his stick is way out of position and you can see his skates pointing into the net rather than out towards each post.
anyways, here's hoping he gets smart and pete peeters helps him out a little and we get on a huge roll for the next month and a half.
I wouldn't go as far as saying he doesn't know what he is doing with his body. As gr8haluschak touched on before, he mentioned how there is a right and wrong time to use the butterfly block, and like Giguere's problem last year I think Roloson doesn't put out his hands higher up like they are supposed to be on shots expected to be higher.

If he were to just change the position of his blocker in order for his stick to be in the position it should be in (covering the five-hole) I would not have such a big problem and probably wouldn't feel it was worth putting all that effort in watching 38 games again and dissecting it here on HFboards. Morale of the story, fix your god damn stick positioning Roloson!

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One his technique has not changed from what it was last year he is playing the exact same way as he did before. The problem that I suspect is number one he is trying to do too much out there. Added to that look where the shots are comming from, he is getting FAR better quality shots than he did last year in the playoffs when the Oilers were able to contain the others to the outside. If you plot where goals are comming from I would venture to guess that there are many many more chances and goals comming from high scoring areas - the slot, and there is no way you can ignore that fact as that is the single most important reason he is no on the same level as he was last year.
Agreed wholeheartedly. It is quite evident a majority of the goals are coming from high scoring percentage places as oppose to last year.

He is trying to do so much and I think its evident with the amount of pressure and frustration he shows on the ice game in and game out.

Probably the main and most important reason why he has had so many off nights and so many weak goals is the guy is on pace to play 72 freakin' games.. I can't being to stress how important that statement.

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when you are constantly getting good scoring chances against you are going to let in more goals - look at Calgary as a prime example how many good scoring chances do they allow ? very little. How many times are they outnumbered infront of the net ? very little. The notion that Roli is not as good as we think is just utter nonsense - he is what he is what most of us have said 3rd best in the division. Added to that he is where he has been where he was last year with us in save percentage and only as slighlty higher GAA then last year with the Oilers so obviously he is saving the same amount of shots in proportion to what he did last year.
Again, I agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:
Quick question... how many of these 5-hole goals are when he is moving laterally?

It's not like the players walk straight in on him and beat him 5-hole (which would be an issue). I've noticed a lot of times that he gives up goals between the legs when he is forced to move from one-side to another.
Quite a few were scored while he was moving laterally, but your stick should still be in position as you move laterally majority of the time. However, no goalie is 110% perfect and does give up goals five-hole moving laterally but it certainly isn't 20% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
As for 5 hole goals being more demoralizing... this isn't 1950 when goalies stood with their legs together anymore. Almost everyone I've ever heard of who claims 5-hole goals are bad goals are older people.

The 5 hole is like any other open area. If it's a clean look, you should stop it. The reason the 5 hole has opened up is to allow goaltenders to stop those shots to the corners that you'd see them give up all the time 20+ years ago.
Again, thats why I stress the importance of stick positioning and stick discipline. With proper stick positioning it should be very rare that you get beat five-hole.

Through my years of playing goal, there aren't many five-hole goals allowed in that you say to yourself "there wasn't anything I could do about that."

Quote:
Originally Posted by willyjagr
That or how many times does he actually get shots to the five hole that he stopped? Yet people only focus on the goals? And nash I don't think he needs to get deeper in his stances as he is pretty deep already and if he goes any deeper he will end up lossing some of his mobility. But basically gr8haluschak has covered everything and I don't think I need to repeat it.
20% dude, I've said it more then a number of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notman_72
Although someone said we cannot bring defense into this but I beleive that is the root of the problem. Roli has shown he can play at an elite level but when he first came over from Mini he looked bad just as he does now. Once the team started to figure out how to play infront of him and he looked really good.

Currently the defense along with the offence is brutal letting the other teams take high percentage chances over and over again and Roli's confidence has suffered.

Anyone that has played goal has had games that you feel that you played well but were blown out. If this happens to you over and over again your confidence goes in tank. This is where you start to change your game and do too much which starts the downward spiral.

I agree Roli has some issues but they all stem from the teams poor defensive support and the lack of scoring has not helped either.

but that's just my opinion.
Who said we couldn't bring defense into it? Defense is the reason why the problem is being exposed. That problem being his stick discipline/positioning.

Without a doubt our defense has hung Roli out to dry and obviously goals are going to go in. Look at Dubnyk last season in the WHL if you have to, goals are going to go in but Roloson is making it pretty hard to make excuses for him.

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01-16-2007, 11:46 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
Again, thats why I stress the importance of stick positioning and stick discipline. With proper stick positioning it should be very rare that you get beat five-hole.
At the same time, the extra push you generate going from one side to the other and using your arm as a pendulum may also be preventing goals. Really, if he gave up 50% fewer goals through his legs, and gave up 50% more on plays where that extra push makes the save, I don't think his GA's would be all that different.

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Through my years of playing goal, there aren't many five-hole goals allowed in that you say to yourself "there wasn't anything I could do about that."
I think that has more to do with the old-timers who always said goals through your legs are bad goals. Even with perfect stick positioning, there is a decent sized hole for the puck to go through. I mean, if you are stopping more shots to the corner and giving up more in the 5-hole, is it really that bad of a trade off?

Not only that, but on a low shot blocker side, Ideally you are moving your stick towards the puck in an attempt to deflect the puck into the corner. If the puck gets redirected and goes 5-hole, what then? I mean, technically you could leave your stick 5 hole all the time and let them hit your pads, but then you are creating extra rebounds.

Likewise, If the puck is 6 inches off the ground and the puck gets tipped between his legs as he's doing his vaccum move, I fail to see how "proper" stick positioning is going to help him if he leaves big rebounds out on all those shots instead.

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01-17-2007, 01:20 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
I realize that there is no problem with that if that is what he feels comfortable with, however, from what I've watched and from what I've seen again going through highlights is that Roloson doesn't only go down like that when its in tight of if he knows the puck is going down low, he goes down like that every single time. Maybe I need to take a second look, I'll look a little closer in the following games.
he does not go into the block every time and quick proof was the second goal Calgary scored on Saturday night when he was beat up high - his gloves were in the right place but he never moved his entire arm only the elbow and as you know you move the entire arm

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Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
I guess you and I could post picture after picture and create an argument for those pictures and still not accomplish anything because as we both know goalies go down in different positions in different times and it is hard disecting pictures of goalies unless those pictures remain constant. Roloson's butterfly has remained constant, regardless of the situation; that being based on what I've seen.
You are right I can post picture after picture and the same common thing appears in Giggy's butterfly he has NO FLARE at all - go and google jean sebastein Giguere or JS Giguere and look at all the pics, I doubt you will find many good butterflies. Like I said before Roli has a fine butterfly for his age and how long he has been a butterfly goalie and like I said before if his butterfly was an issue he would be beat far more times to the corners.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
I don't mean to turn this into a pissing match, but I don't really think you know what my point was as I am expressing it? And my point is, if it wasn't clear, that his stick discipline/positioning is horrible and his butterfly block is not always being used properly.
Well it seems that his block is fine because he very rarely gets beat up high when he does it if it all.

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Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
The way I was brought up and taught, is that five-hole goals should be very very rare. Even if it isn't as reinforced as it was when I was taught, 20% is a huge statistic.
No on the ice five whole goals should be rare, like I said before if a shooter gets it off the ice just above the blade it is the hardest shot to save, and if the guy is close enough to you no goalie will save it with out doing something like a knee drop

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01-17-2007, 03:52 PM
  #40
Ramrod
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For all of you non-goalies, here's a general rule: If it goes through you, you probably could have stopped it.
The stick flare by Roloson is getting pretty gross. It's not the five-hole goals that bother me, it's flicking the stick out every time he goes into the butterfly (unless the shot is high).

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