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Old
01-17-2007, 11:38 PM
  #51
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If were going to do it, time's drawing near.

Hanks 24. He and Marc Stall are the futures of this franchise.

Henrik's gonna be a UFA at 27. we gotta give him a reason to stay. a 38 year old jagr, 40 year old shanny etc arent going to cut it.

Wait till next year when Straka's deal is almost up, and if we arent on top of the Atlantic or within a couple of points, blow this ****er up. Jagr, Straka, Cullen, Ward, make em all go bye bye.

Of course, Sather wont do it.

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01-18-2007, 12:07 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Real Cherry Picker = Pavel Bure. He would be wondering around in the offensive zone waiting for the pass while it was deep in our own zone.
man i don't know what games you were watching.. i remember being pleasantly surprised with bure's effort on defense

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Old
01-18-2007, 12:09 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 35 and 14 View Post
If were going to do it, time's drawing near.

Hanks 24. He and Marc Stall are the futures of this franchise.

Henrik's gonna be a UFA at 27. we gotta give him a reason to stay. a 38 year old jagr, 40 year old shanny etc arent going to cut it.
that reason will have everything to do with $

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01-18-2007, 12:18 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I've been watching him for his entire career in the NHL. My second post clarifies my feelings on this, in that even if he does "cherrypick," he's INCREDIBLY good at it, making it worth it. Also, to say that "he only does that stuff when he has the puck," referring to his rushes and strong on-puck play, is silly. For as long as I've seen him, he tends to dominate possession when he's on ice. He always has the puck! So "only doing it when he has the puck" translates to a high frequency, since he's so often in possession of the puck.

I'm not arguing that Jagr hasn't been off of his game and less involved this season than in years past, it's just odd to me to see people characterize as a cherrypicker one of the greatest puck-possessors of all time (and a guy who has 841A- can you cherrypick assists too?). Also, as I said in another post, who ****ing cares, he's an offensive threat the likes of which the game has rarely seen, and up until this season, a truly FANTASTIC offensive force.
The bottom line is he does NOTHING on defense. He cherry picks, has been doing it often, and always will keep doing it. He's a one-dimensional player who whenever he feels uncomfortable with his surroundings doesn't play up to his talent level, See: Washington Capitals 2002-2004. I don't care how many assists he has, a good faction of them are coming from the power play. He does NOTHING on defense, and nothing that you or anyone else can say will change that.

Fact is fact: He is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL PLAYER.

Who cares about how good of an offensive force Jagr is if we don't win a cup with him. It's pointless to be a mediocre team that just makes the playoffs and gets killed in the first or second round, which is what Jagr-lead teams have and always will be.

Restocking with young potential elite talent would be great for the club, and we'd make an actual build towards a Stanley Cup. Sather will never do it because Dolan HAS TO have that one marquee name in town that sells tickets, and Jagr is that marquee name.

I want to see this team win, but knowing that they have zero chance of winning the cup with the way this team is built just dissapoints me. I'd rather take a few more years of futility to see a competitive young team with a great future wielded. One that works hard every night. One that's gritty. One that doesn't have a poor example of a captain who plays a one-dimensional game.

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Old
01-18-2007, 03:17 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
The bottom line is he does NOTHING on defense. He cherry picks, has been doing it often, and always will keep doing it. He's a one-dimensional player who whenever he feels uncomfortable with his surroundings doesn't play up to his talent level, See: Washington Capitals 2002-2004. I don't care how many assists he has, a good faction of them are coming from the power play. He does NOTHING on defense, and nothing that you or anyone else can say will change that.

Fact is fact: He is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL PLAYER.

Who cares about how good of an offensive force Jagr is if we don't win a cup with him. It's pointless to be a mediocre team that just makes the playoffs and gets killed in the first or second round, which is what Jagr-lead teams have and always will be.

Restocking with young potential elite talent would be great for the club, and we'd make an actual build towards a Stanley Cup. Sather will never do it because Dolan HAS TO have that one marquee name in town that sells tickets, and Jagr is that marquee name.

I want to see this team win, but knowing that they have zero chance of winning the cup with the way this team is built just dissapoints me. I'd rather take a few more years of futility to see a competitive young team with a great future wielded. One that works hard every night. One that's gritty. One that doesn't have a poor example of a captain who plays a one-dimensional game.
Gretz, we're absolutely on the same page when it comes to winning a Cup with Jagr and our mutual desire to move him. We're also more or less in agreement about his lack of defense, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that he plays NO defense at all, as I've seen him backcheck from time to time.

I just jumped into this thread to talk about "cherrypicking," that's all.

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01-18-2007, 03:37 PM
  #56
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I agree that Jagr is a one-dimensional player, but that's been the case for his entire career.

As for the notion that we should trade him, I really think that it's a bad idea. If we could get equal value in return, then I'd be all for it. But there's no way that would happen. It would, at best, a 75 cents on the dollar move, and possibly even 50.

And that's because Jagr has always been an enigma. You never know what you're going to get from him, and if he's in an uncomfortable situation then he might not bother at all. Right now he likes where he is, on a line with two other playmakers and in a locker room filled with friends and fellow Czechs.

His lack of production this year (and that's really only in comparison to last year, after all he's still a top-10 scorer) should be chalked up more to his shoulder, not apathy. And it should also be noted that he's been getting more attention and double teams than he did last year, which has in large part led to Straka's outstanding year.

Now if only we could get Nylander to shoot more....

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01-18-2007, 05:22 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Gretz, we're absolutely on the same page when it comes to winning a Cup with Jagr and our mutual desire to move him. We're also more or less in agreement about his lack of defense, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that he plays NO defense at all, as I've seen him backcheck from time to time.

I just jumped into this thread to talk about "cherrypicking," that's all.
What does he do defensively though? He floats around in the defensive zone doing nothing when he is "backchecking," from what I've seen.

I've been a winger since I've started playing hockey and to me, he doesn't look involved at all defensively.

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Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
I agree that Jagr is a one-dimensional player, but that's been the case for his entire career.

As for the notion that we should trade him, I really think that it's a bad idea. If we could get equal value in return, then I'd be all for it. But there's no way that would happen. It would, at best, a 75 cents on the dollar move, and possibly even 50.

And that's because Jagr has always been an enigma. You never know what you're going to get from him, and if he's in an uncomfortable situation then he might not bother at all. Right now he likes where he is, on a line with two other playmakers and in a locker room filled with friends and fellow Czechs.

His lack of production this year (and that's really only in comparison to last year, after all he's still a top-10 scorer) should be chalked up more to his shoulder, not apathy. And it should also be noted that he's been getting more attention and double teams than he did last year, which has in large part led to Straka's outstanding year.

Now if only we could get Nylander to shoot more....
I think we have to move him if we really want to start a rebuild. We could get a few good young assets for him in return, that would help us along the way.

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01-18-2007, 05:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
The bottom line is he does NOTHING on defense.
That's an exxageration. He does back-check. I've seen him hustle back to break up odd man rushes not just last year but this year too. It's not his forte but he does do it if not all the time at least sometimes. Video tape doesn't lie.

But again, I'm not nominating Jagr for the Selke... and yes, it's a no-brainer that what he brings to the game is mainly offense - offense that very few other players in NHL history can match up to. So I cut the man some slack for not being the ultimate 2-way player. His job is to make the puck wind up in the opposing net, and he's one of the very best in the business.

His offense helps the Rangers far more than his defense hurts the Rangers, that's the bottom line.

I think the "C" issue makes a lot of people gripe because he doesn't have the fire of an Yzerman or Messier. He's just not wired that way. There's some legitimacy to that. Captain is a meaningful role in the NHL whereas in other sports it's kind of an after thought. NHL fans want their captains to be battle-torn warriors, and Jagr ain't. But he still dominates games, and I still feel that he gets more criticism than he deserves.

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01-18-2007, 07:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by cringer View Post
That's an exxageration. He does back-check. I've seen him hustle back to break up odd man rushes not just last year but this year too. It's not his forte but he does do it if not all the time at least sometimes. Video tape doesn't lie.
I don't need the video tape, as I've been watching him for a LONG time, practically since he came up, and that's definitely not the case. This is not a guy that hustles back on the back check "if not all the time, at least sometimes." He does it sometimes, if at all.

Check out Viktor Kozlov's last goal against us in the last Ranger/Islander game, and tell me what Jagr's doing there. Just one example of how bad Jagr is defensively.

Quote:
But again, I'm not nominating Jagr for the Selke... and yes, it's a no-brainer that what he brings to the game is mainly offense - offense that very few other players in NHL history can match up to. So I cut the man some slack for not being the ultimate 2-way player. His job is to make the puck wind up in the opposing net, and he's one of the very best in the business.
I understand that he's a one-way player, but this team isn't going to win a cup with a one-dimensional player who sets bad examples as it's captain, and the bottom line is they're trying to win a cup with him here. Not going to happen.

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His offense helps the Rangers far more than his defense hurts the Rangers, that's the bottom line.
The thing with that is when he's not producing, like this slump he's going through, he's not involved enough defensively to make a difference, and on top of that, he's not much of a leader. Bad choice for a captain.

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I think the "C" issue makes a lot of people gripe because he doesn't have the fire of an Yzerman or Messier. He's just not wired that way. There's some legitimacy to that. Captain is a meaningful role in the NHL whereas in other sports it's kind of an after thought. NHL fans want their captains to be battle-torn warriors, and Jagr ain't. But he still dominates games, and I still feel that he gets more criticism than he deserves.
He doesn't have to have that fire or that vocal leadership they did, but what he should be doing is setting a better example. Not showing up for some games is not an example you should be setting as a captain.

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01-18-2007, 08:09 PM
  #60
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The Dolans want playoff revenue, and they have utterly no interest in offering fans a 10% "losing" discount as they've already had to do once.

Sather wants to salvage what he can of his threadbare legacy as a GM.

The coaching staff wants to keep its job.

All these point to a drive for the playoffs even if it means nothing more than a 1st round elimination. That being the case, Jagr will not be traded ... although he should be.

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01-18-2007, 08:19 PM
  #61
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dedalus is right...

Jagr's not going anywhere. Personally, you want Jagr on your team, but you want someone like Prucha or Dawes to play with him so while the kid breaks into the league, he's being helped out a heck of a lot while spreading the vets across lines and hopefully creating balance while developing kids. To me, that's how you bring along a kid - like playing Hejduk with Sakic, or Tanguar with Sakic, or Hull with Datysuk, and the list goes on. If he's not being used that way, he may be more valuable as trade bait, considering his cheapness and the fact that he could be the final piece to a lot of puzzles out there.

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01-18-2007, 11:27 PM
  #62
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Based on the talent factor, Jagr should stay. But I have no idea what happens on this team when it comes to leadership and dynamics. i've often wondered whether Renney actually is control of the team or if there is some other factor overriding him, i.e. Jagr calls a lot of shots. Messier did the same thing but he was totally effective because he scared the heck out of his teammates.

I wouldn't want to trade Jagr right now (in fact, I don't think trading him is the solution at all), we could easily wait a bit, give him the benefit of an extended rest over the all-star break, and see if he heals. He has not been 100% since his injury, that's pretty plain. Hopefully by then we can get rid of one or two pieces of deadwood. With the salary cap room we have, pick up a defenseman who can do the PP.
The rest is up to Renney putting his foot to the pedal, in my opinion, Jagr is not a problem with this team. As for people putting Krog down (maybe not here in particular, but overall I think Ranger fans are pissed)

I think it's bad that the Ranger management just do everything wrong, every player that gets picked up the way Jason Krog did is under the microscope, always a pressure situation because they have mismanaged their way to the point where each acquistion gets looked at way harder than they deserve. Desperation hockey at the management level, very little desperation hockey on the ice, where it counts. I hold only a few players accountable at this point, it is predominantly a failure of managment and coaching.

Has anybody here seen Rangers practices and seen the type of drills they do, as in practicing defending against odd man rushes, or coming out of your zone shorthanded? Just wondering because to me, it often looks like they have not practiced it.

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01-19-2007, 06:10 AM
  #63
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Mark Naslund alone is worth more than Jags.

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01-19-2007, 06:13 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by cringer View Post
That's an exxageration. He does back-check. I've seen him hustle back to break up odd man rushes not just last year but this year too. It's not his forte but he does do it if not all the time at least sometimes. Video tape doesn't lie.
Does the C on his shirt only mean consistent in the offensive zone? Or how about care only for one half of the rink? You cannot make excuses for a guy who has been given the reigns of the team. Captain Jagr needs to distinguish himself from Assistant Jagr. He has yet to do that. Or even show any care or effort...sometimes does not cut it.

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01-19-2007, 07:06 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Mark Naslund alone is worth more than Jags.
hahah riiiiiiight.

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01-19-2007, 07:17 AM
  #66
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Mark Naslund alone is worth more than Jags.
Joking?

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01-19-2007, 06:04 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Mark Naslund alone is worth more than Jags.
Valuable contribution to the discussion. Thanks.

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01-19-2007, 06:48 PM
  #68
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The Dolans want playoff revenue, and they have utterly no interest in offering fans a 10% "losing" discount as they've already had to do once.

Sather wants to salvage what he can of his threadbare legacy as a GM.

The coaching staff wants to keep its job.

All these point to a drive for the playoffs even if it means nothing more than a 1st round elimination.
That about sums it up.

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01-19-2007, 06:50 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
The Dolans want playoff revenue, and they have utterly no interest in offering fans a 10% "losing" discount as they've already had to do once.

Sather wants to salvage what he can of his threadbare legacy as a GM.

The coaching staff wants to keep its job.

All these point to a drive for the playoffs even if it means nothing more than a 1st round elimination. That being the case, Jagr will not be traded ... although he should be.
Dedalus, I wish you posted more often here.

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01-19-2007, 09:54 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB Sheets View Post
The scary part for Rangers fans has to be Jagr's history. When he's happy, he plays phenominally well. When he's not, he doesn't - and not much can make him play better.

The question is: Is Jagr's reduced scoring this season reflective of injury, etc, or is it the beginning of Jagr just not being a happy camper in NYC anymore?
If Jagr didn't want to stay in New York, he wouldn't be so hard on himself about not being at 100%.

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please don't talk about the rocket like that....
Dude, someone on these boards called Gretzky a cherrypicker. Don't listen to the people that post on these forums.

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01-19-2007, 09:59 PM
  #71
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Joking?
must be

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Old
01-19-2007, 10:42 PM
  #72
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Too bad Pittsburgh isn't locked into the playoffs and us not, otherwise:

Jagr for J.Staal & Letang
Malkin-Crosby-Jagr FTW

or do it anyways!

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01-24-2007, 11:45 AM
  #73
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jagr

ya know jagr has a few good years left in him but i think we should just start rebuilding now. keep shanahan around so you can show leadership throughout the lineup. i say, trade jagr to the kings for Anze Kopitar and a 2nd and 3rd round pick. this way we may be able to get some youngins and get a high quality player in kopitar. hes only 19 years old and the kid is good. if the kings would make that trade resign kopitar to a huge contract so you can lock him up. by trading jagr and rebuilding, you wont have to worry about getting rid of prucha and all of the other young kids. next year you can bring up dubinsky, callahan, dawes, and staal. this maybe tthe worst idea ever, but the rangers have to do SOMETHING.

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01-24-2007, 11:47 AM
  #74
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ya know jagr has a few good years left in him but i think we should just start rebuilding now. keep shanahan around so you can show leadership throughout the lineup. i say, trade jagr to the kings for Anze Kopitar and a 2nd and 3rd round pick. this way we may be able to get some youngins and get a high quality player in kopitar. hes only 19 years old and the kid is good. if the kings would make that trade resign kopitar to a huge contract so you can lock him up. by trading jagr and rebuilding, you wont have to worry about getting rid of prucha and all of the other young kids. next year you can bring up dubinsky, callahan, dawes, and staal. this maybe tthe worst idea ever, but the rangers have to do SOMETHING.
The Kings are not contending for the playoffs this season. I doubt they will trade their best young player for an aging Jagr. Maybe if they were in a playoff position and wanted one last player to put them over the top to have a good chance to win the cup. They have more pressing needs then forwards though (Goaltending).

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01-24-2007, 12:14 PM
  #75
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Sam Rosen was just on Leafs Lunch talking about the All Star game.Sammy is doing the game for NHL Radio.He was asked about Jaromir Jagr by Bill Watters and Rosen said the shoulder is still bothering him from last season

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