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Old
12-28-2013, 08:57 PM
  #51
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
It is so funny how in Baseball Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson are venerated as among the best ever, yet in hockey many truly think Rocket Richard is from some bygone era not worthy of comparison to recent times. Let alone Morenz or Shore.

You are likely to hear crap that Gretzky faced these useless goalies that couldn't stop beachballs too, despite the fact that quite a number of players that are still active played against him.
Like "defensemen in the 80s were pylons". When people say crap like that I think it's insulting not to mention flat-out false.

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12-30-2013, 12:23 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Like "defensemen in the 80s were pylons". When people say crap like that I think it's insulting not to mention flat-out false.
The truth of the matter is that goaltending at the very least was on a different level in the 80's, just look at the video and defensive systems weren't as good as preventing goals as they would be in the mid 90's and beyond, yet some people deny these changes or claim there is less talent which has almost zero evidence to back up that position.

Just go watch a major junior hockey game and watch the skating then go back to an early 80's NHL game and see the difference, or really lack of it for the most part.

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12-30-2013, 02:01 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The truth of the matter is that goaltending at the very least was on a different level in the 80's, just look at the video and defensive systems weren't as good as preventing goals as they would be in the mid 90's and beyond, yet some people deny these changes or claim there is less talent which has almost zero evidence to back up that position.

Just go watch a major junior hockey game and watch the skating then go back to an early 80's NHL game and see the difference, or really lack of it for the most part.
So now early 80's player's are like junior players now? Ok sure. Whatever.

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12-30-2013, 02:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The truth of the matter is that goaltending at the very least was on a different level in the 80's, just look at the video and defensive systems weren't as good as preventing goals as they would be in the mid 90's and beyond, yet some people deny these changes or claim there is less talent which has almost zero evidence to back up that position.

Just go watch a major junior hockey game and watch the skating then go back to an early 80's NHL game and see the difference, or really lack of it for the most part.
And yet there's all these players like Mario, like Bourque, like Gartner just to mention 3, that managed to maintain around the same goal scoring level in the 90's that they did in the 80's.

How is that possible Hardy? According to you, it shouldn't be.

See, no one denies that the game has changed, gotten faster and become more defensive. That's never been the issue with what you always spout around here.
The issue, is that you fail to see that the best of the best (you know, the 99.9% of the players we talk about around here) adapt and evolve, continuing to score their goals and get their points at a high level while the lesser players are choked off to a much greater degree.

As has been pointed out many times now, scoring is down and it is harder to score today but Primary scoring isn't down by anywhere close to the same level as what League levels are down by. It's the secondary scoring that has taken the big hit.

It's also never been the argument that there's less talent today, the argument is that that talent is being suppressed a lot more today.

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12-30-2013, 02:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Sundinology View Post
Crazy that only 4 of the top 20 are above 6'. Nowadays most of the best centers are 6'2"+
Yeah, I feel like a giant at 6'2". I only outweigh Malone & Bentley on that list so far though.

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12-30-2013, 02:42 PM
  #56
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Junior Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The truth of the matter is that goaltending at the very least was on a different level in the 80's, just look at the video and defensive systems weren't as good as preventing goals as they would be in the mid 90's and beyond, yet some people deny these changes or claim there is less talent which has almost zero evidence to back up that position.

Just go watch a major junior hockey game and watch the skating then go back to an early 80's NHL game and see the difference, or really lack of it for the most part.
Previously your analogy was with midget players. So it seems the quality of midget players has gone down.

Check the number of juniors in the NHL now or any season dating back to the start of the 18 year old NHL Entry Draft or previously - Bobby Orr, Henri Richard, Larry Hillman, amongst others. Some like Orr, Henri Richard were elite skaters - at the level, or better than their contemporary NHL elders.

Conversely you have always had elders in the game performing at an elite level, Jagr, Recchi, Chelios alone since the 2005-06 season. Not one of them skating at the elite junior level but quite capable of playing NHL hockey.

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12-31-2013, 06:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
So now early 80's player's are like junior players now? Ok sure. Whatever.
Please don't take my context out of context, I specifically referred to the skating.

Go watch some games and do the comp you will see what I'm talking about.

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12-31-2013, 06:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Previously your analogy was with midget players. So it seems the quality of midget players has gone down.

Check the number of juniors in the NHL now or any season dating back to the start of the 18 year old NHL Entry Draft or previously - Bobby Orr, Henri Richard, Larry Hillman, amongst others. Some like Orr, Henri Richard were elite skaters - at the level, or better than their contemporary NHL elders.

Conversely you have always had elders in the game performing at an elite level, Jagr, Recchi, Chelios alone since the 2005-06 season. Not one of them skating at the elite junior level but quite capable of playing NHL hockey.
See my comment in post 57, I'm talking specifically about skating and major junior is what I stated as then there won't be a huge grey area on it.

Ken Dryden has stated, in reference to concussions, on the slow pace of play one can witness in the NHL games of the 50's with much more time and space for players to do basically anything.

It doesn't take a hockey expert to realize that time and space and the more any skilled player has of it, matter.

There is major junior hockey in Quebec, go watch the skating in those games and compare back, it really becomes quite clear when one looks at it.

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12-31-2013, 06:42 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And yet there's all these players like Mario, like Bourque, like Gartner just to mention 3, that managed to maintain around the same goal scoring level in the 90's that they did in the 80's.

How is that possible Hardy? According to you, it shouldn't be.

See, no one denies that the game has changed, gotten faster and become more defensive. That's never been the issue with what you always spout around here.
The issue, is that you fail to see that the best of the best (you know, the 99.9% of the players we talk about around here) adapt and evolve, continuing to score their goals and get their points at a high level while the lesser players are choked off to a much greater degree.

As has been pointed out many times now, scoring is down and it is harder to score today but Primary scoring isn't down by anywhere close to the same level as what League levels are down by. It's the secondary scoring that has taken the big hit.

It's also never been the argument that there's less talent today, the argument is that that talent is being suppressed a lot more today.
As usual there are too many straw men here to cover and we have been all over it before, the exceptions do sometimes prove the rule and no we don't only talk about the 99.9% of players here many of those players often have seasons in the 80-90% range, or less, as well but that's a whole other matter.

look at the goalies and skating from the early 80's to mid 90's and beyond, quite simply the changes in the goalies (equipment and otherwise) and the overall skating in the league is dramatically different.

Part of the problem here seems to be "the best of the best" argument that is being defended.

In the early 80's it's still primarily an all Canadian league with some Americans and a hand full of players from Europe, fast forward to mid 90's the quality and quantity of non Canadian players has greatly outpaced the increase in 9 teams.

Simply look at raw numbers, then post season all star voting and this trend, or change become quite clear.

There is a possibility that even with this massive influx of new talent that the league didn't get any better or more competitive but that lies on the premise that Canadian hockey got a lot worse and there really isn't any evidence to suggest that either.

Maybe the changes in the game get full recognition as some point here or the bar will continually be set higher for players to come than the higher standard set for the most recent guys already.

Then again maybe not.


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12-31-2013, 06:46 PM
  #60
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Ken Dryden right.Ask Henderson who suffered at least 6 concussion playing in 60s he said coaches forced you to play even if were vomiting on the floor after you got hit also he said teamates would look down on you if you didnt play.You have no idea what your talking about in terms of how tough the gane was back then.

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12-31-2013, 07:07 PM
  #61
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Ken Dryden right.Ask Henderson who suffered at least 6 concussion playing in 60s he said coaches forced you to play even if were vomiting on the floor after you got hit also he said teamates would look down on you if you didnt play.You have no idea what your talking about in terms of how tough the gane was back then.
The NHL game has always been tough, what has changed is the number of career altering injuries since around the mid 90's and beyond, if you can't see that then I really have no idea on what you are looking at.

Just go look at the history of it.

There is some simple physics going on here as well with larger objects crashing into each other at higher speeds.

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12-31-2013, 10:12 PM
  #62
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Skating

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
See my comment in post 57, I'm talking specifically about skating and major junior is what I stated as then there won't be a huge grey area on it.

Ken Dryden has stated, in reference to concussions, on the slow pace of play one can witness in the NHL games of the 50's with much more time and space for players to do basically anything.

It doesn't take a hockey expert to realize that time and space and the more any skilled player has of it, matter.

There is major junior hockey in Quebec, go watch the skating in those games and compare back, it really becomes quite clear when one looks at it.
And my reply specifically referenced skating and elite junior aged players throughout NHL history, specifically Orr and Henri Richard who actually played in the NHL as juniors because of their skating and continued to a HHOF career. Also Larry Hillman who could skate at the NHL level as a junior, played, but whose overall game was lacking and actually never caught up to make him an NHL regular during the O6 era.

As for your suggestion to watch major junior in Quebec. Scout midget AAA, live a short walk from the local arena. QMJHL team, a half hour drive catch a few games a year.

In terms of raw speed Midget AAA or major junior are at the present day NHL level. In fact in terms of raw speed most can outskate easily NHL players like Jaromir Jagr, Douglas Murray and the depth players that compose the bottom half of most NHL rosters but they lack the physical maturity to be effective at the NHL level and the vast majority of them lack the other hockey basics and hockey knowledge to be effective let alone good or elite at the midget AAA or major junior level. In other words players like Jaromir Jagr, Douglas Murray though slower have the hockey smarts to play at the NHL level. The faster midget or major junior players do not and the vast majority never will, even for a shift.

This has always been the case. Early 1960s, the elite junior Canadiens would skate with the Canadiens at the Forum. Yvan Cournoyer at the age of 17 or 18 was a better skater than a number of NHL regulars but would be manhandled or simply allowed to skate himself out of the play.

As for Dryden's concussion related comments you see the same effect today. Regular season overtime, fast pace but short two skaters produces very few if any concussions because space is more plentiful. On th PP in regulation time when pace is reduced and one team is a player short you see concussions drop.

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01-01-2014, 01:53 AM
  #63
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The truth of the matter is that goaltending at the very least was on a different level in the 80's, just look at the video and defensive systems weren't as good as preventing goals as they would be in the mid 90's and beyond, yet some people deny these changes or claim there is less talent which has almost zero evidence to back up that position.

Just go watch a major junior hockey game and watch the skating then go back to an early 80's NHL game and see the difference, or really lack of it for the most part.
I have a better idea. Why don't don't you go put on a pair of skates from the '80s and skate a 90 second shift in them and get back to us and tell us how you skated just as fast as you did in a contemporary pair of skates for a 45 second shift. I'm all ears.

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01-01-2014, 01:56 AM
  #64
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I have a better idea. Why don't don't you go put on a pair of skates from the '80s and skate a 90 second shift in them and get back to us and tell us how you skated just as fast as you did in a contemporary pair of skates for a 45 second shift. I'm all ears.
You might think it's a better idea but we already have enough information to make an informed decision so I'll pass.

Feel free to do so on your own though.

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01-01-2014, 02:22 AM
  #65
Morgoth Bauglir
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You might think it's a better idea but we already have enough information to make an informed decision so I'll pass.

Feel free to do so on your own though.
Cop out much? Or maybe skates in the '80s weren't integrated enough for your liking

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01-01-2014, 12:43 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
As usual there are too many straw men here to cover and we have been all over it before, the exceptions do sometimes prove the rule and no we don't only talk about the 99.9% of players here many of those players often have seasons in the 80-90% range, or less, as well but that's a whole other matter.
Straw men? You're the only one with that going on. I provide stats and rationale backed up by actual trends and more stats.
You come up with such awe inspiring and game changing proof like "look at their skates" or "watch a Junior game today compared to an NHL game back then".

As far as exceptions proving the rule...have you not noticed by now that every time we have this conversation, I try to use 3 different player names each time
The list of exceptions is starting to look like 2/3's of the top 25 scorers from the 80's and 90's now heh.
I know, you must be waiting for it to hit 75% before you will no longer call them exceptions even though to most rational people exceptions usually make up well under 5% but hey, damn those rational people I say

Quote:
look at the goalies and skating from the early 80's to mid 90's and beyond, quite simply the changes in the goalies (equipment and otherwise) and the overall skating in the league is dramatically different.

Part of the problem here seems to be "the best of the best" argument that is being defended.

In the early 80's it's still primarily an all Canadian league with some Americans and a hand full of players from Europe, fast forward to mid 90's the quality and quantity of non Canadian players has greatly outpaced the increase in 9 teams.

Simply look at raw numbers, then post season all star voting and this trend, or change become quite clear.

There is a possibility that even with this massive influx of new talent that the league didn't get any better or more competitive but that lies on the premise that Canadian hockey got a lot worse and there really isn't any evidence to suggest that either.

Maybe the changes in the game get full recognition as some point here or the bar will continually be set higher for players to come than the higher standard set for the most recent guys already.

Then again maybe not.
Look dude, I don't know how else to put this to you. This conversation happens about once a month or so and everytime, you go limping away with your tail between your legs because you provide no actual evidence, just theories and conjecture.

Let me try this then.
These aren't exact numbers but they're close enough to make my point about scoring levels and tier scoring.

Lets say in the 80's, teams average 300 goals each and the top tier players are getting 33% of them. That's 100 goals
Today, teams are averaging about 220 goals and the top tier players are accounting for about 43% of them. That's 95 goals.

Can you now see how yes, scoring on a League level is down but those missing goals are not coming out of the pockets of the top tier players by anything close to the amount that's coming out of the other tiers?


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Cop out much? Or maybe skates in the '80s weren't integrated enough for your liking
Not nice!!! You made me snort coffee out of my nose.

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01-01-2014, 12:58 PM
  #67
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The number of players careers ending early since the mid 1990s is a bunch of crap.Some of you educate yourselves before speaking.The violence of todays game compared to 1970s is nothing .For me its like watching figure skating some of the games are a joke.The police in toronto in 1970s layed criminal charges against numerous players at the time.A top judge was brought in to help clean the sport .Government spent millions of dollars in 1978 on a platform to put in rules to make game safer.Some of you dont understand or get it.I mean even Scotty Bowman junior career was ended when an oposing player used his stick and hit him over the headbreaking his skull.Many of you never played the game like I have or have no historical knowledge of the game.

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01-01-2014, 01:36 PM
  #68
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Not nice!!! You made me snort coffee out of my nose.
Killion does that to me all the time

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01-01-2014, 03:58 PM
  #69
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You guys have until the end of Round 8 (this weekend) to get the "Players of Today vs Players of Yesterday" stuff out of your system. If you need to discuss it past that date, feel free to post in the thread dedicated to the subject, or start a new one.

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01-01-2014, 11:59 PM
  #70
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Devil's right Hardy. Instead of starting all over again and again in numerous threads, how about you just try to answer some of the pages of posts in this thread http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...l+encompassing

There's posts in that thread dating back 3 freaking years that you still haven't answered to, explained or even come remotely close to countering heh.

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01-02-2014, 12:56 AM
  #71
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Devil's right Hardy. Instead of starting all over again and again in numerous threads, how about you just try to answer some of the pages of posts in this thread http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...l+encompassing

There's posts in that thread dating back 3 freaking years that you still haven't answered to, explained or even come remotely close to countering heh.
My views are well known and backed up by actual numbers, it's obvious you disagree and have a particular slant on things, the bottom line is that the competition and defensive level, ie the ability of teams to stop other teams from scoring has changed drastically from the 80's.

Each player needs to be judged in context IMO and not in some "the best is always the best"n uneven manner.

For scoring, the Canadian standard is the most common and consistent way to do this, or a base or starting point and much better than comparing top 10 scoring for example from a guy in the 40's than say the mid 90's.

It's pretty obvious the 90's guy is being held to a higher standard if the "how he does in top 10 or top 20 scoring" is the measuring point.

It is what it is.

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01-06-2014, 03:34 AM
  #72
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Hope Hawerchuk makes this list.

One of the best centres of the 80s and early 90s.

If his career didn't end prematurely due to a hip problem he probably would have finished his career with 1700 or so points - Ron Francis territory but with a a higher offensive peak and also not having the benefit of playing with Lemieux and Jagr.

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01-06-2014, 09:08 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Hope Hawerchuk makes this list.

One of the best centres of the 80s and early 90s.

If his career didn't end prematurely due to a hip problem he probably would have finished his career with 1700 or so points - Ron Francis territory but with a a higher offensive peak and also not having the benefit of playing with Lemieux and Jagr.
And also in a whole different universe defensively...

But I hope Hawerchuk makes the top 50 as well.

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01-07-2014, 02:21 AM
  #74
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I like seeing Frank Nighbor in the Top 10. Truly one of the all-time greats of the game but has largely been forgotten, even amongst people with a decent knowledge of the game's history. Glad to see this project gave him the recognition he deserves.

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01-07-2014, 03:03 AM
  #75
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I like seeing Frank Nighbor in the Top 10. Truly one of the all-time greats of the game but has largely been forgotten, even amongst people with a decent knowledge of the game's history. Glad to see this project gave him the recognition he deserves.
I agree. Love seeing Nighbor in the top 10. Just not over Phil Esposito.

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