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Old
12-17-2013, 01:27 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I just think people have trouble separating Schenn's performance from whether the Flyers won that trade.
This sentence nails it.

If you look at L. Schenn in a vacuum and ignore the context, it's tough to be overly critical of him.

He's worked hard, never complained, and has had generally good results while he's been here.

Unfortunately, people can not totally ignore context (nor should it be totally ignored). We lost the trade, but it's time to view it as a sunk cost. We're not getting JVR back, nor are we likely to ever be perceived as winners, so just focus on L. Schenn rather than what could have been with JVR.

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12-17-2013, 02:39 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
This sentence nails it.

If you look at L. Schenn in a vacuum and ignore the context, it's tough to be overly critical of him.

He's worked hard, never complained, and has had generally good results while he's been here.

Unfortunately, people can not totally ignore context (nor should it be totally ignored). We lost the trade, but it's time to view it as a sunk cost. We're not getting JVR back, nor are we likely to ever be perceived as winners, so just focus on L. Schenn rather than what could have been with JVR.
That pretty much sums it up for me.
He's younger than JVR is and played a solid short season for us last year. He's a 24 yr old dman who made some crucial mistakes in his offseason training and i'm sure he's realized that by now. Berube seemed to make it pretty clear that it was a problem to him by benching him. He played well enough last year to earn himself a spot on the Canadian WC team and did well there. His play's been leveling out again but he's still slower than last year.

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12-17-2013, 10:56 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
but at the same time many think Holmgren could of got more for JVR then just Luke Schenn. I understand why they traded JVR, but the return was not enough. Its looking more and more like Holmgren lost the trade.
I agree with this position, we got the wrong type of defenseman in trade.
I would have tried to get an offensive minded PMD, instead of a defensive defenseman.
The fact that Luke is Brayden's brother should not factor into whether he is fit for this Flyers team.

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12-18-2013, 03:20 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I agree with this position, we got the wrong type of defenseman in trade.
I would have tried to get an offensive minded PMD, instead of a defensive defenseman.
The fact that Luke is Brayden's brother should not factor into whether he is fit for this Flyers team.
But the fact that they are brothers was the reason for the trade. I hated the logic behind it from day 1.

WE could have gotten so much more for jvr. I agree with trading jvr. He is always going to be one of those guys that produces only when he has great line mates. He can never doo it on his own like a rick nash.

This trade can be salvageable if schenn is a top 4 defense-man and plays close to 20 min a game. If he can't he has to be traded because i dont want to pay a third pairing guy that much money.

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01-01-2014, 02:16 AM
  #405
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Trading JVR for Luke Schenn is a FAIL thus far......watching 24/7 with JVR and seeing him produce in Toronto while Schenn struggles with his game is extremely demoralizing.....

Another case of the Flyers not doing enough homework ......like with Bryz.

Criticism of JVR was that we thought he would never "get it" mentally but had all the talent. Meanwhile Schenn has way less talent than JVR and his hockey IQ borders on idiot savant.

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01-01-2014, 07:36 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Trading JVR for Luke Schenn is a FAIL thus far......watching 24/7 with JVR and seeing him produce in Toronto while Schenn struggles with his game is extremely demoralizing.....

Another case of the Flyers not doing enough homework ......like with Bryz.

Criticism of JVR was that we thought he would never "get it" mentally but had all the talent. Meanwhile Schenn has way less talent than JVR and his hockey IQ borders on idiot savant.
JVR is still prone to disappearing for long stretches of time. From a talent standpoint, they lost the trade. But JVR is far from an elite player himself.

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01-01-2014, 11:50 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Trading JVR for Luke Schenn is a FAIL thus far......watching 24/7 with JVR and seeing him produce in Toronto while Schenn struggles with his game is extremely demoralizing.....

Another case of the Flyers not doing enough homework ......like with Bryz.

Criticism of JVR was that we thought he would never "get it" mentally but had all the talent. Meanwhile Schenn has way less talent than JVR and his hockey IQ borders on idiot savant.
Every trade is a gamble. We seem to be coming out at a losing end this time. We can live with it. **** VCR

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01-01-2014, 11:52 AM
  #408
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Like I said, the Flyers may have lost the trade, but that has nothing to do with anything now. Why make a potential compounding error by dumping Schenn for nothing? They have him now, forget about JVR. You can't undo the trade, so what's the point in dwelling on it when evaluating Schenn?

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01-01-2014, 12:08 PM
  #409
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Suffered through a horrible season and then complained that Kane was better than JVR. Now it is compounded with JVR being better than Schenn. How about L. Schenn for P. Kane straight up!

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01-01-2014, 12:21 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Suffered through a horrible season and then complained that Kane was better than JVR. Now it is compounded with JVR being better than Schenn. How about L. Schenn for P. Kane straight up!
Kane and Giroux...yes, please!

Now that's depressing to think how close that was to happening.

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01-01-2014, 12:59 PM
  #411
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Flyers fans regarding draft picks and prospects:

"The Flyers have no patience and that is why they suck so much and will never ever win a Stanley Cup."

Flyers fans regarding players in the NHL who struggle (regardless of age, position, etc):

"Trade this guy he sucks he is a bust no way he ever can turn it around signing him/trading for him/whatever was so stupid and I want to get rid of him now."

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01-01-2014, 01:30 PM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Flyers fans regarding draft picks and prospects:

"The Flyers have no patience and that is why they suck so much and will never ever win a Stanley Cup."

Flyers fans regarding players in the NHL who struggle (regardless of age, position, etc):

"Trade this guy he sucks he is a bust no way he ever can turn it around signing him/trading for him/whatever was so stupid and I want to get rid of him now."
Again ..you are a good fiction writer...problem with your false equivalency is that Schenn in particular is continuing his inconsistent trend but it is compounded by the fact that he is limited in skill.

JVR always had more upside and I wanted the Flyers to be patient but Holmgren's tunnel vision with getting a stay at home d man to help insulate Bryz caused him to undersell JVR. JVR was another consequence caused by Holmgren's massive Bryz mistake.

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01-01-2014, 02:24 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Again ..you are a good fiction writer...problem with your false equivalency is that Schenn in particular is continuing his inconsistent trend but it is compounded by the fact that he is limited in skill.

JVR always had more upside and I wanted the Flyers to be patient but Holmgren's tunnel vision with getting a stay at home d man to help insulate Bryz caused him to undersell JVR. JVR was another consequence caused by Holmgren's massive Bryz mistake.
And how about those complaining about the other Schenn? What about the first part of the season when Gitoux didn't deserve his contract or the captain C? What about people complaining about Coutrier's offense? What about people calling for Raffl's head in the early-going? Those don't count I guess.

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01-01-2014, 02:30 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And how about those complaining about the other Schenn? What about the first part of the season when Gitoux didn't deserve his contract or the captain C? What about people complaining about Coutrier's offense? What about people calling for Raffl's head in the early-going? Those don't count I guess.
None of those players I had problems with personally...at least not to give up on them. Now Hartnell and Streit..yes. Streit has picked it up and Hartnell a bit too but they are vets and I expect more.

As far as Puke Schenn...he may be salvageable but I have my concerns..big time.

And of course JVR scores a goal in the WC...ugh

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01-01-2014, 02:30 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And how about those complaining about the other Schenn? What about the first part of the season when Gitoux didn't deserve his contract or the captain C? What about people complaining about Coutrier's offense? What about people calling for Raffl's head in the early-going? Those don't count I guess.


Dude, we have a big fan base. Lots of people are going to think lots of things. Don't act like the whole fanbase thinks the same things. Hell, you thought Leighton was a legit NHL goalie for a while. Nobody acted like the entire fanbase believed such things because of it.

Seriously though, B. Schenn is showing very little with the eyeball test to indicate his ceiling is much higher than what we're seeing. He should be showing that potential by now. 15 game goalless streaks where he's completely invisible outside of a shift or two and being extremely reliant on others to make plays for him is distressing to see at this point. He REALLY needs to start showing more potential if he's ever going to be more than a glorified Hartnell/Downie.

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01-01-2014, 02:39 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And how about those complaining about the other Schenn? What about the first part of the season when Gitoux didn't deserve his contract or the captain C? What about people complaining about Coutrier's offense? What about people calling for Raffl's head in the early-going? Those don't count I guess.
keep in mind no armchair gm has ever been fired bro.

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01-01-2014, 02:46 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post


Dude, we have a big fan base. Lots of people are going to think lots of things. Don't act like the whole fanbase thinks the same things. Hell, you thought Leighton was a legit NHL goalie for a while. Nobody acted like the entire fanbase believed such things because of it.

Seriously though, B. Schenn is showing very little with the eyeball test to indicate his ceiling is much higher than what we're seeing. He should be showing that potential by now. 15 game goalless streaks where he's completely invisible outside of a shift or two and being extremely reliant on others to make plays for him is distressing to see at this point. He REALLY needs to start showing more potential if he's ever going to be more than a glorified Hartnell/Downie.
Meh..still think it is a bit premature to judge B Schenn. The right package I might move him but I would like to see him stick around for another year at least under Berube. His simpleton bro who has to simplify his game for lack of talent on the other hand has been in the league long enough to show more consistency at the least.

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01-01-2014, 02:47 PM
  #418
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keep in mind no armchair gm has ever been fired bro.
Neither has any been hired.. Im personally listening to offers.

Hear that Snider...lol

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01-01-2014, 03:06 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Neither has any been hired.. Im personally listening to offers.

Hear that Snider...lol
a big difference is that the real gm has all the facts regarding why a move was made, not just speculation and assumption.

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01-01-2014, 03:06 PM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Flyers fans regarding draft picks and prospects:

"The Flyers have no patience and that is why they suck so much and will never ever win a Stanley Cup."

Flyers fans regarding players in the NHL who struggle (regardless of age, position, etc):

"Trade this guy he sucks he is a bust no way he ever can turn it around signing him/trading for him/whatever was so stupid and I want to get rid of him now."

I have patience to develop young players who display speed, offensive skill and good hockey IQ.
I have patience to develop a young #1 defenseman as it is a key component of a sucessful nhl team.
I have patience to develop a young offensive minded PMD, which is also helpful in todays fast paced game.
This defense needs to get more offensively skilled with faster skaters.
Without overhauling this defense, this offense will be incapable of outscoring top teams in the NHL.

I have no patience to develop dime-a-dozen defensive defensemen or see #1 picks used on that type of defenseman.
I see no need to trade a young #1 round winger (organizational weakness) for another defensive defenseman (organizational strength).
It makes no logical sense to me, when good defensive defensemen are available as FA or for lower round picks.
I do not have patience to bring in alot of old slow defensemen and expect better results than in the past. Insanity!!!!

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01-01-2014, 04:09 PM
  #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Meh..still think it is a bit premature to judge B Schenn. The right package I might move him but I would like to see him stick around for another year at least under Berube. His simpleton bro who has to simplify his game for lack of talent on the other hand has been in the league long enough to show more consistency at the least.
I'm not giving up on him yet, but based on what he's shown I have little confidence he'll become what we hoped.

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01-01-2014, 04:10 PM
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Flyers fans regarding draft picks and prospects:

"The Flyers have no patience and that is why they suck so much and will never ever win a Stanley Cup."

Flyers fans regarding players in the NHL who struggle (regardless of age, position, etc):

"Trade this guy he sucks he is a bust no way he ever can turn it around signing him/trading for him/whatever was so stupid and I want to get rid of him now."
Holmgren supporters when trading. "Its not Holmgren's fault the trade didnt work. that is on the players.
Holmgren supporters when a trade works out "what a trade by Holmgren. He is a top 3 GM easily."

see we both can play the game.

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01-01-2014, 04:11 PM
  #423
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yeah its too early to think that Schenn has busted out. But it is not to early to start showing concern of what type of player he will become.

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01-01-2014, 04:15 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Again ..you are a good fiction writer...problem with your false equivalency is that Schenn in particular is continuing his inconsistent trend but it is compounded by the fact that he is limited in skill.

JVR always had more upside and I wanted the Flyers to be patient but Holmgren's tunnel vision with getting a stay at home d man to help insulate Bryz caused him to undersell JVR. JVR was another consequence caused by Holmgren's massive Bryz mistake.


So true.

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01-01-2014, 04:28 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
a big difference is that the real gm has all the facts regarding why a move was made, not just speculation and assumption.
Um yeah...there is an explanation for every idiotic move a GM makes because they are in a position of authority after all..according to your unquestioning logic. Sorry I dont buy it..

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