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Hudler, Filppula and Kopecky

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Old
01-04-2007, 09:38 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
At least you backed away from your ludicrous 'he never developed' line. It's always nice to see you demonstrate a glimmer of lucidity now and then.

And 'poor man's Chris Pronger' isn't pretty high expectations? A guy who won a Hart and Norris in the same season? Okay.

People forget that Fischer was a late first round pick. He was a guy who at his top-end was going to be a staunch top pairing defensive dman. He was a half-season away from reaching that potential. He was never going to be an offensive dman.

Minimize what Jiri Fischer accomplished as a player as much as you want, I suppose. It was certainly an in-vogue thing for you to do while he was playing, so I can't see why you'd feel it was any less comfortable now that he's not.

On every board I've ever posted on, I've been a Jiri Fischer booster.
Yeah, I've criticized him. But I was a fan.

As for Fischer being a "half-season" away from reaching his potential .... there's really nothing I can say to counter such nonsense.

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01-04-2007, 12:24 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SmartestManOnEarth View Post
Wow. Just wow?

Fischer struggled to stay in the lineup for years, was guilty of boneheaded giveaways and penalties. He had a great playoff in 02, and then struggled again ...

Finally, in the few games prior to his terrible collapse, he showed signs of poise.

But I think it's VERY ACCURATE to say that he never really did develop into the great defensemen we all hoped he'd be.

He may have done so ... Maybe by this year.

But with Jiri, it was always two very slow steps forward, one step back.

Any other reading of it is probably made under the "get well Jiri" sentiment.

And trust me, I loved Fischer. I had high hopes for him. And I really thought he was playing well in 05, finally using the speed and size to his advantage.

But he was far from a guy who reached his potential.
100% correct.

Fischer's best year with the Wings was 2001-02. He was paired with Chelios that season and the two were a dominant force. It looked like Fisch had the potential to be the next Pronger, no exaggeration.

The following year Fischer suffered the knee injury and that was a major setback. How far did Fisch fall? People may forget, but Jiri was a healthy scratch for game 6 against the Flames in the 04 playoffs. That was a microcosm of the entire 03-04 season, where a lack of confidence and play that can only be described as timid and tentative was all too common from Fischer.

Now, it looked like Fischer had taken some steps forward during the lockout, as his play in 05 was improved. But I still don't think it was on par with what we saw from him in 01-02, and he clearly had not reached his potential.

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01-04-2007, 05:19 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SmartestManOnEarth View Post
On every board I've ever posted on, I've been a Jiri Fischer booster.
Yeah, I've criticized him. But I was a fan.
It really shows.

Quote:
As for Fischer being a "half-season" away from reaching his potential .... there's really nothing I can say to counter such nonsense.
Well, he was more than a half season away from your ludicrous 'Poor man's Pronger' standard...

He was playing in the top three. On both special teams units. His IT was increasing. The staff (Babcock in particular) was really positive about his game and his role. He was certainly very close to becoming the solid defensive #2 he showed glimpses of in his first couple years.

Oh well. Believe whatever you want. You usually do.

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01-18-2007, 03:02 AM
  #79
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What kind of the wall did these 3 hit all at the same time?
I think Filppula played much better earlier in the season. Hudler is about the same. While Kopecky might be a little bit better. But all in all, I do not see much improvement. Yes, I know they are not gettting much IT, but I do not know whether they deserve. Hudler deserves more PP time IMHO.

They did hit the wall when I posted this, but now it seems like they are making some notable progress.
Hudler 2 goals in 2 games, both GWs. Nice.
I think it is clear now that he has made a step in the right direction.
What he has to do now, is try to get open as much as possible and S-H-O-O-T. Shoot a lot. The kid has a very good shot.

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01-18-2007, 06:45 AM
  #80
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Hudler may be earning more ice time

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/storie...020.xml&coll=1

Quote:
When it comes to distributing ice time, Detroit Red Wings coach Mike Babcock adheres to a simple philosophy.

"It's on an ad-earn basis,'' Babcock says, usually several times a week.

Rookie forward Jiri Hudler could be earning himself some more minutes. He's scored the winning goal the last two games. He has eight goals, despite averaging only 8:30 per game in ice time.

Hudler scored what Babcock called a "fantastic goal'' in Wednesday's 5-3 victory against Nashville.

"We're winning and it's all about the team,'' Hudler said. "I got to keep going, play hard every shift and we'll see. I feel really good with (linemates) Fil and Willy (Jason Williams).''

Said Babcock: "I thought those guys were real good for us tonight. They're getting better and better. They did a good job defensively and came down and scored. I thought that was the turning point of the game.''

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01-18-2007, 07:09 AM
  #81
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Hudler played 8:15, full 3 and half minutes less than the next guy (Filppula).

I will check the next game how much have these 2 GWG in a row earned him ...

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01-18-2007, 08:43 AM
  #82
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It's tragic that Babcock doesn't realize how silly he makes himself look when he says that the players earn ice time and then shafts Hudler.

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01-18-2007, 12:48 PM
  #83
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Right... because scoring a goal in two straight games means the issues that keep Hudler off the ice have been resolved.

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01-18-2007, 01:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
100% correct.

Fischer's best year with the Wings was 2001-02. He was paired with Chelios that season and the two were a dominant force. It looked like Fisch had the potential to be the next Pronger, no exaggeration.

The following year Fischer suffered the knee injury and that was a major setback. How far did Fisch fall? People may forget, but Jiri was a healthy scratch for game 6 against the Flames in the 04 playoffs. That was a microcosm of the entire 03-04 season, where a lack of confidence and play that can only be described as timid and tentative was all too common from Fischer.

Now, it looked like Fischer had taken some steps forward during the lockout, as his play in 05 was improved. But I still don't think it was on par with what we saw from him in 01-02, and he clearly had not reached his potential.
I think Fischer could have definetly been an elite defensive dman in the league eventually. A poor man's pronger was a bit high probably. But I could have seen him turn into an Adam Foote type player. Big dman usually take longer to develop, and his offensive game was never really given the chance. I mean you look at a guy like Pronger and you see 50 or so points. What a lot of people fail to remember is that almost half of those points are scored on the PP. Without Prongers massive PP time he is a 20-30 point dman. Fischer was never given a chance on the PP. Not because he was terrible or couldn't play there but because the Wings had a bunch of elite PP guys. I mean there was Lids, Murphy, Yzerman, Feds, Schneider, etc. Not to mention Fischer was young and thus wasn't likely to get the bonus time even if he was better. Facts are that Fischer had a cannon of a shot, prob the best on the team besides maybe Feds. He definetly needed to work on getting it off faster, but he could have probably developed it given the chance. In contrast Pronger was given lots of time to develop his offensive game, because he played on So-so teams. No Fischer probably would have never won a Norris but he would have been a helluva top 4 dman. I have no doubt of it in my mind. He might have even been a Norris type guy had he been given the playing time or a guy like Phaneuf or Pitkanen in his early years. That isn't what happened though and it doesn't really matter anymore either.

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Old
01-18-2007, 01:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Right... because scoring a goal in two straight games means the issues that keep Hudler off the ice have been resolved.
Heck, lighten up on the kid. If he can increase his production 50% by getting an increase in IT of 75-100%, then he'll easily surpass our stalwart scoring threats like Sammy, Homer, Williams, et. al.

(Creative use of stats. )

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01-18-2007, 01:24 PM
  #86
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Heck, lighten up on the kid. If he can increase his production 50% by getting an increase in IT of 75-100%, then he'll easily surpass our stalwart scoring threats like Sammy, Homer, Williams, et. al.

(Creative use of stats. )
Hudler is closing in on Willy on the EV TOI. The only natural progression now would be to move him from Flipper up to Lang, and throw Sammy in the other direction.

Hudler+Z+Dats _could_ theoretically work, though, but it'd be a real midget line.

Edit: both Hudler and Williams were both practically benched during the 3rd too.

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01-18-2007, 01:38 PM
  #87
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Right... because scoring a goal in two straight games means the issues that keep Hudler off the ice have been resolved.
Every player I have seen in my life has had his issues. Isn't it the case that scoring important goals kinda counterweighs many of them?

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01-18-2007, 01:50 PM
  #88
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Heck, lighten up on the kid. If he can increase his production 50% by getting an increase in IT of 75-100%, then he'll easily surpass our stalwart scoring threats like Sammy, Homer, Williams, et. al.

(Creative use of stats. )
I'm not bashing Hudler... he's just not ready for a regular role. Could Detroit throw him out there for 12-15 a night on a scoring line and get maybe 20 goals 50 points from him? Sure. I've never heard one person bash his offensive upside, and I'm pretty sure I never have either. Offense isn't his problem. Everyone knows he can score.

Hudler's problem is that his defensive effort isn't there night in and night out, he's not fast, and he's not physical. That's what keeps him off the ice. Until at least one of those things is improved to a better-than-average NHL level he's just not going to get much time in a Babcock system which stresses all three as primary factors to determine position.

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01-18-2007, 01:54 PM
  #89
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He's doing great in his role, he's contributing and he's not hurting the team that much if at all. He's getting used to playing with Filppula and Williams and they're making themselves valuable.

I see no reason to change what's working, we're winning games, he's contributing. He knows his role, he's accepted it, he's not pouting about not being out on the ice, he knows the situation. Babcock isn't messing with him because Hudler knows exactly what his role is and he knows his icetime is going to be limited.

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01-18-2007, 02:19 PM
  #90
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He's doing great in his role, he's contributing and he's not hurting the team that much if at all. He's getting used to playing with Filppula and Williams and they're making themselves valuable.

I see no reason to change what's working, we're winning games, he's contributing. He knows his role, he's accepted it, he's not pouting about not being out on the ice, he knows the situation. Babcock isn't messing with him because Hudler knows exactly what his role is and he knows his icetime is going to be limited.
I am fine with his IT at ES. I have no idea what Babcock wants him to do, when he wants him on the ice and I would not say there is anything wrong there.
But Babcock could give him some PP time/shifts. It has been pointed out many times by several posters that Hudler has a very good shot and as not so many Wings forwards shoot the puck enough and have no so good shot, Hulder should be given some more shifts on the PP. And I think we are going to see this happen in the coming games.

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01-18-2007, 02:24 PM
  #91
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I am fine with his IT at ES. I have no idea what Babcock wants him to do, when he wants him on the ice and I would not say there is anything wrong there.
But Babcock could give him some PP time/shifts. It has been pointed out many times by several posters that Hudler has a very good shot and as not so many Wings forwards shoot the puck enough and have no so good shot, Hulder should be given some more shifts on the PP. And I think we are going to see this happen in the coming games.
Hudler had plenty of shots on the PP this year and really didn't do much with it. He had a stretch of 3 or so games where he got really decent PP time.

I know what you're saying, but our PP is just turning around, even without Schneider. It could help, but I wouldn't be shocked if it didn't, at least this year.

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01-18-2007, 02:39 PM
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Hudler had plenty of shots on the PP this year and really didn't do much with it. He had a stretch of 3 or so games where he got really decent PP time.

I know what you're saying, but our PP is just turning around, even without Schneider. It could help, but I wouldn't be shocked if it didn't, at least this year.
Fine, let's watch what he is doing next 5-10 game and see what kind of progress he makes.
I have to say that he impressed my by his attitude adn I believe he is taking his role very seriously without complaining. Good sign.

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01-18-2007, 02:42 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
Fine, let's watch what he is doing next 5-10 game and see what kind of progress he makes.
I have to say that he impressed my by his attitude adn I believe he is taking his role very seriously without complaining. Good sign.
I agree, I really like Hudler and am glad that he's really coming into his own.

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01-18-2007, 03:00 PM
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From what I have seen Hudler has been playing very well at the aspects considered flaws. I think his speed is above-average, not blistering mind you but he has some wheels. One thing I have been very happy with every game is his forechecking. For a guy of his size he is being very aggressive applying pressure.

I think the TOI thing is to get his head set straight. I truely believe Babcock is saying to Huds that you don't deserve anything, you need to show me how bad you want it this year. Which I think Hudler has definately responded. Not just from the past two games but rather from an all round standpoint. I think this is Hudler's year to just absorb the style and to develop a consistant work ethic so he doesn't start being lazy or rolling with the motions like training camp.

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01-18-2007, 03:04 PM
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Hudler is fine, but he's very redundant. How many more underdsized forwards do we need? Ok, let the flaming begin

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01-18-2007, 03:13 PM
  #96
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Hudler is fine, but he's very redundant. How many more underdsized forwards do we need? Ok, let the flaming begin

Not a flame; But we had this discussion 4-5 years ago when it was emerging that due to lack of high draft choices the Wings would continue to draft small skilled players who they would later trade to fill their true needs. Only problem is they haven't traded any of them off.

They are planting the seeds, and cultivating the crops; But there's no harvest.

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01-18-2007, 03:54 PM
  #97
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Hudler's problem is that his defensive effort isn't there night in and night out, he's not fast, and he's not physical. That's what keeps him off the ice. Until at least one of those things is improved to a better-than-average NHL level he's just not going to get much time in a Babcock system which stresses all three as primary factors to determine position.
You just described Robert Lang. What keeps him on the ice? Oh yeah...he is a veteran. Lang is an offensive player who is shaky defensively, is not fast and is not physical.

Just sayin...

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01-18-2007, 03:55 PM
  #98
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You just described Robert Lang. What keeps him on the ice? Oh yeah...he is a veteran. Lang is an offensive player who is shaky defensively, is not fast and is not physical.

Just sayin...
But he is our biggest forward and actually uses his size to create chances.

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01-18-2007, 03:58 PM
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But he is our biggest forward and actually uses his size to create chances.
Rarely does Lang "use his size". And its a shame, because a man of his size should automatically have an advantage against other players. But he is just as soft on the puck as anybody else.

Honestly, I like Lang. I was just responding to HD's claim that Hudler is defensivly enept, slow and not physical. Lang is all of things as well.

And while we are on the subject. Mikael Samuelsson, Tomas Holmstrom and Jason Williams all fit this bill too (well, Williams has a little bit of speed). HD thinks he has pin-pointed the reasons why Hudler doesnt see more ice time. I am just curious why players of the same ilk do recieve the ice time?

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01-18-2007, 04:13 PM
  #100
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Rarely does Lang "use his size". And its a shame, because a man of his size should automatically have an advantage against other players. But he is just as soft on the puck as anybody else.

Honestly, I like Lang. I was just responding to HD's claim that Hudler is defensivly enept, slow and not physical. Lang is all of things as well.

And while we are on the subject. Mikael Samuelsson, Tomas Holmstrom and Jason Williams all fit this bill too (well, Williams has a little bit of speed). HD thinks he has pin-pointed the reasons why Hudler doesnt see more ice time. I am just curious why players of the same ilk do recieve the ice time?
I don't buy that, Lang is successful in the playoffs because of how he uses his size in the playoffs.

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