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Happy New Year 2014| Tue., Dec. 31, 2013| Flyers 4 at Flames 1

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Old
01-01-2014, 12:38 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
For as much slack as he gets here Hartnell quietly has a 5 game point streak going currently & has 7 points in his last 8 games.
It looks like he's simplified his game, and isn't trying to play like an all-star anymore. I thought he played particularly well against the Wild last week, for the first time in a long while. It's nice to see him keep it up.

I hope Read is back soon... We really need a defensively responsible winger for Couturier to play with. Putting Rinaldo out there with him and Vinny is worse than when we had Talbot on that line.

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01-01-2014, 12:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
For as much slack as he gets here Hartnell quietly has a 5 game point streak going currently & has 7 points in his last 8 games.
Yeah, in all honesty, I've been hard on him, as well, but stats like those should make one question whether the interpretation of what he or she is seeing is correct. I mean, it's cool and all to be someone who watches players for how they play and not look at the numbers, but at the end, when there's a mismatch, people need to ask themselves which of the two approaches has firmer grounding. That said, I'd still move Hartnell down (heh), and bring Downie back to the top 9.

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01-01-2014, 12:45 PM
  #53
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Did it ever remotely occur to you that Leino and Hobbit were on fire because of Hartnells hard work ?Watch the old clips and take a good hard look ? Hartnell gets little recognition from a lot of " novice" type fans because they cannot get past the fact he is not a great or smooth skater.......Its just that simple .
Any "novice" or expert level fan such as yourself - can see that Hartnell has played very poorly this season. He has always had the propensity - when in doubt or under pressure - to whack the puck blindly across the ice resulting in a turnover. Although his play has improved the past few weeks - this season he's done a lot of that and it's ended up in the Flyers net. He can be very effective even though he's a poor skater (by NHL standards). But when the guy is on his ass every shift - it's not a good thing.

And I didn't even have to "watch the old clips" to figure all that out. Maybe I'm somewhere between novice and expert.

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01-01-2014, 01:28 PM
  #54
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Did it ever remotely occur to you that Leino and Hobbit were on fire because of Hartnells hard work ?Watch the old clips and take a good hard look ? Hartnell gets little recognition from a lot of " novice" type fans because they cannot get past the fact he is not a great or smooth skater.......Its just that simple .
That was over 3 years ago. He's a completely different player now; a far less effective player.

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01-01-2014, 02:06 PM
  #55
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I'm a bit puzzled why people are defending Hartnell. Most of his points have come from deflections or simple passes. It is nice to see him doing the simple things well but he is playing sheltered minutes on the 2nd line and most of his points are coming from the power play. He drags down the second line on even strength due to his inability to skate or pass well.

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01-01-2014, 02:23 PM
  #56
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I'm a bit puzzled why people are defending Hartnell. Most of his points have come from deflections or simple passes. It is nice to see him doing the simple things well but he is playing sheltered minutes on the 2nd line and most of his points are coming from the power play. He drags down the second line on even strength due to his inability to skate or pass well.
Deflections still take skill, playing in the dirty areas is a big part of his game.

5 of the 7 points were at ES, five of them were assists 3 primary & 2 secondary, & one of his goals was on the PP & the other was at ES.

He's been playing well recently especially the last two games it's alright to admit it.

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01-01-2014, 02:28 PM
  #57
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Yeah, in all honesty, I've been hard on him, as well, but stats like those should make one question whether the interpretation of what he or she is seeing is correct. I mean, it's cool and all to be someone who watches players for how they play and not look at the numbers, but at the end, when there's a mismatch, people need to ask themselves which of the two approaches has firmer grounding. That said, I'd still move Hartnell down (heh), and bring Downie back to the top 9.
I don't like the Hartnell, Simmonds, & Schenn line but if Schenn picks up his play like he seems to be doing now it may make things a little better.

I'm still not a 100% sold on Raffl being on the top line but I wouldn't take him off unless the line starts to slump.

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01-01-2014, 03:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I don't like the Hartnell, Simmonds, & Schenn line but if Schenn picks up his play like he seems to be doing now it may make things a little better.

I'm still not a 100% sold on Raffl being on the top line but I wouldn't take him off unless the line starts to slump.
I'm not sold on Raffl being on the top line either. His skill set is a good complement to Giroux and Voracek though. At this point just keep him there and wait and see what happens.


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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Deflections still take skill, playing in the dirty areas is a big part of his game.

5 of the 7 points were at ES, five of them were assists 3 primary & 2 secondary, & one of his goals was on the PP & the other was at ES.

He's been playing well recently especially the last two games it's alright to admit it.
Deflections certainly do take skill but only being able to play in front of the net kills being able to have a good cycle game. Having him and Simmonds on the PP makes it hard to cycle the puck from the blueline to behind the net quickly and makes it hard to open up the defense. He is mostly certainly playing better in the past few games but I can't get passed his glaring flaws.

Hartnell can be a good player with the right teams, I just don't think he fits on the flyers anymore with Simmonds being in the top 6 since he certainly shouldn't be on the Couturier line or with Giroux & Voracek.

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01-01-2014, 03:41 PM
  #59
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And I wish all here a blessed, safe, healthy and prosperous 2014.
Honestly, ill go with the classic Bacardi white. Thanks

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01-01-2014, 03:41 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I don't like the Hartnell, Simmonds, & Schenn line but if Schenn picks up his play like he seems to be doing now it may make things a little better.

I'm still not a 100% sold on Raffl being on the top line but I wouldn't take him off unless the line starts to slump.
They have 2 ES goals in 5 games. Not acceptable for a top line. Bunch of Giroux's points during the streak came on the PP or on partial line changes.

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01-01-2014, 03:48 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I don't like the Hartnell, Simmonds, & Schenn line but if Schenn picks up his play like he seems to be doing now it may make things a little better.

I'm still not a 100% sold on Raffl being on the top line but I wouldn't take him off unless the line starts to slump.
I think that line actually works well. Simmonds understands that Schenn and Hartnell wont dig out the puck very often, so he's forced to forecheck and shovel it to one of them. Usually in a decent area in front of the net. They are playing like a physical line should be. They are all essentially the same kind of player so they understand they need to improve on their weaknesses to score.

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01-01-2014, 03:52 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
They have 2 ES goals in 5 games. Not acceptable for a top line. Bunch of Giroux's points during the streak came on the PP or on partial line changes.
Its the best Giroux's looked all year though. So IMO Raffl needs to stay until he starts slumping. Raffl understands Giroux gets alot of his ES Goals off of turnovers from the other team. Giroux isnt a good forechecker.

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01-01-2014, 04:01 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
They have 2 ES goals in 5 games. Not acceptable for a top line. Bunch of Giroux's points during the streak came on the PP or on partial line changes.
Doesn't Giroux typically score a lot of his points on the powerplay? I'm not sure how big of a difference another player would make on that line. Would be interesting if you could simulate how someone like Eberle or such would make an impact.

My thinking is that the problem is a lack of offense from defense. Seems like they often get trapped in their zone and can't regain control of the puck.

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01-01-2014, 07:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
Did it ever remotely occur to you that Leino and Hobbit were on fire because of Hartnells hard work ?Watch the old clips and take a good hard look ? Hartnell gets little recognition from a lot of " novice" type fans because they cannot get past the fact he is not a great or smooth skater.......Its just that simple .
Don't be so damn patronising. These 'novice' fans are perfectly justified in criticising him. Hartnell has had a few decent years but has declined badly in the past 18 months. He's not a smooth skater, he's not a good scorer, he's unreliable and regularly does stupid things to cost us. Hell, in this game he scored but still managed to cost us a goal with the unnecessary knock on the goalie.

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01-01-2014, 07:51 PM
  #65
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Don't be so damn patronising. These 'novice' fans are perfectly justified in criticising him. Hartnell has had a few decent years but has declined badly in the past 18 months. He's not a smooth skater, he's not a good scorer, he's unreliable and regularly does stupid things to cost us. Hell, in this game he scored but still managed to cost us a goal with the unnecessary knock on the goalie.
Speaking of that knock, I couldn't believe how vigorously the Comcast crew was defending Hartnell. To me, it seemed clear he could've easily avoided contact, but chose to ram into him instead.

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01-01-2014, 08:03 PM
  #66
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Doesn't Giroux typically score a lot of his points on the powerplay? I'm not sure how big of a difference another player would make on that line. Would be interesting if you could simulate how someone like Eberle or such would make an impact.

My thinking is that the problem is a lack of offense from defense. Seems like they often get trapped in their zone and can't regain control of the puck.
I have no problem with Giroux scoring on the PP (duh), but I have a problem with this line of thinking:

Giroux is hot, therefore the top line is hot, therefore Raffl needs to stay on the top line.

Giroux is getting his points elsewhere. Raffl is not a top line player and the top line isn't scoring like a top line. Shake it up. We need to do better. I'm not content with this trio getting stalemated.

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01-01-2014, 08:15 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I have no problem with Giroux scoring on the PP (duh), but I have a problem with this line of thinking:

Giroux is hot, therefore the top line is hot, therefore Raffl needs to stay on the top line.

Giroux is getting his points elsewhere. Raffl is not a top line player and the top line isn't scoring like a top line. Shake it up. We need to do better. I'm not content with this trio getting stalemated.
Sure, it's just that there are no indications that the top line can play better and that it's Raffl holding it back. Both Giroux and Voracek are playing well above what I think their norm in terms of point production is, so I really don't see a problem.

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01-01-2014, 08:36 PM
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Sure, it's just that there are no indications that the top line can play better and that it's Raffl holding it back.
I think it's up to you to prove that this is the maximum level of play that can be expected from the top line before it makes sense to disregard alternatives.

Giroux and Voracek have both proven capable of producing at top line levels for long periods of time, while Raffl has not. Giroux and Voracek both have top line pedigree, top line statistical resumes and top line credentials. Raffl's 1LW spot is the first place you have to look when it comes to improving top line scoring.

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Both Giroux and Voracek are playing well above what I think their norm in terms of point production is, so I really don't see a problem.
At ES? No. The problem is lack of ES scoring.

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01-01-2014, 08:47 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I have no problem with Giroux scoring on the PP (duh), but I have a problem with this line of thinking:

Giroux is hot, therefore the top line is hot, therefore Raffl needs to stay on the top line.

Giroux is getting his points elsewhere. Raffl is not a top line player and the top line isn't scoring like a top line. Shake it up. We need to do better. I'm not content with this trio getting stalemated.
What solutions would you propose then? Shuffling lines ever other game won't help line chemistry. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong since it seems once they get in the offense zone they do a decent job with controlling the puck. The line could definitely finish better but I think they have had some decent chances.

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01-01-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I think it's up to you to prove that this is the maximum level of play that can be expected from the top line before it makes sense to disregard alternatives.
Sure, that might be the case, but we've seen other combinations and none have been better thus far. You're not going to be able to try them all for a sufficient amount of time to evaluate what works best, at least I don't think so. So I think it's a matter of good enough and at this point this looks pretty damn good to me. But yeah, I can't prove this is the maximum level of play that can be expected and I do agree alternatives shouldn't be ignored. But you also have to think about how other lines will look then.

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Giroux and Voracek have both proven capable of producing at top line levels for long periods of time, while Raffl has not. Giroux and Voracek both have top line pedigree, top line statistical resumes and top line credentials.
I don't think they've proven capable of producing at higher levels than they currently are. As for the pedigree and statistical resumes, Raffl is a rookie in the NHL, so how can you expect to have credentials to show he can play on the top line? If that's your argument for why his place should looked at first in trying to improve the first line, fine, it's as valid an argument as any. But we're not going to come to an agreement here, because we basically disagree on whether the top line is producing as it should, making replacing Raffl moot in my opinion. I don't see Voracek and Giroux as being able to produce more with any of our players, and I think they need to have a guy that improves their play more in order to do that. I'm not saying a guy like Jagr wouldn't cut it, but there's no one like that on our roster.

Honestly, I think you just dislike Raffl and are looking for any and every reason to get him off the line. Which is fine, we all have our likes and dislikes. I'd like to see Giroux off the team, as well

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01-01-2014, 10:27 PM
  #71
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At this point if the first line is clicking with Raffl on it then I would keep him them together. But if Raffl's production starts to dwindle I would move Schenn up to that spot. Im not going to write Raffl off as a top 6 player just because he wasn't drafted high. He definitely has the talent to play in the top 9 but only time will tell.

I really don't know why we didn't put Downie back on the couts line when he came back but that should be one of the lines. In all honesty I think Lecavalier or Hartnell is the least deserving of playing in the top 9.

For now I would go:

Raffl-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Downie
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Rinaldo-Lecavalier-Hall

and then if Raffl falters:

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Downie
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Hall-Rinaldo

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01-02-2014, 01:45 AM
  #72
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At this point if the first line is clicking with Raffl on it then I would keep him them together. But if Raffl's production starts to dwindle I would move Schenn up to that spot. Im not going to write Raffl off as a top 6 player just because he wasn't drafted high. He definitely has the talent to play in the top 9 but only time will tell.

I really don't know why we didn't put Downie back on the couts line when he came back but that should be one of the lines. In all honesty I think Lecavalier or Hartnell is the least deserving of playing in the top 9.

For now I would go:

Raffl-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Downie
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Rinaldo-Lecavalier-Hall

and then if Raffl falters:

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Downie
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Hall-Rinaldo
I'd like to see this. Raffl can play on Cout's left until Read is back. I want to see Schenn get a look on Giroux's wing, especially now that he's starting to produce again. I like Raffl but his shot is awful, I'd like to see Schenn there since he actually has a nice shot. I could see the Hartnell - Vinny - Simmonds line doing well too.

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01-02-2014, 02:54 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I have no problem with Giroux scoring on the PP (duh), but I have a problem with this line of thinking:

Giroux is hot, therefore the top line is hot, therefore Raffl needs to stay on the top line.

Giroux is getting his points elsewhere. Raffl is not a top line player and the top line isn't scoring like a top line. Shake it up. We need to do better. I'm not content with this trio getting stalemated.
do you believe in chemistry? Simmonds isnt a top line player. Hartnell for the most part hasnt played like a top line player this season. Yes Raffl isnt a top line player. I just dont think they should break up the top line just because Raffl isnt thought of as a top line guy.
if the line cools off then fine, break it up. right now? not a good idea IMO

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