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In regards to the prospect polls...

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Old
01-18-2007, 01:53 PM
  #1
Fireonk
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In regards to the prospect polls...

Im starting a seperate thread because I don't want to clutter up the actual voting threads. Im just curious why guys are voting a certain way?

Jarkko Immonen is starting to get a bunch of people voting for him. I don't understand how people can consider him the best prospect on the list. If Sanguinetti was on another team would anyone possibly hesitate in trading Immonen for him straight up? If not then how is he considered a better prospect? I understand Jarkko is much more ready to contribute on the NHL level but aren't we voting for who the better prospect is and not who the better player currently is?

This isn't necessarily a rant, Im honestly curious as to why people think hes a better prospect.

For the record I only picked Sanguinetti because thats who I voted for but the point still applies to others, such as Sauer and Pyatt, to name a couple.

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01-18-2007, 02:28 PM
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For some people view certain players like immonen and pyatt as having a higher upside then players like Sanguinetti... Some people view them as having better potential... Sanguinetti was a first round pick but many question his defense ability... While players like Pyatt and Immonen and Sauer, may have a bigger upside... Most of the times it's peoples personal opinion... No one on this board has the resources to go and scout every player in the orgainization.. Many pick the players that they believe that have the highest upside...

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01-18-2007, 02:47 PM
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Fireonk
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I understand player evaluations from the people of this board are all a matter of opinion. It's why I added the bit at the end that it isnt just a question of Sanguinetti vs Immonen. I'm honestly curious if someone would take Immonen in a straight up deal over Sanguinetti, Sauer, or Pyatt? If so, why?

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01-18-2007, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Apple View Post
For some people view certain players like immonen and pyatt as having a higher upside then players like Sanguinetti... Some people view them as having better potential... Sanguinetti was a first round pick but many question his defense ability... While players like Pyatt and Immonen and Sauer, may have a bigger upside... Most of the times it's peoples personal opinion... No one on this board has the resources to go and scout every player in the orgainization.. Many pick the players that they believe that have the highest upside...
I don't see where people would think right now that Immonen has a "bigger upside" then Sanguinetti.

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01-18-2007, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
Im starting a seperate thread because I don't want to clutter up the actual voting threads. Im just curious why guys are voting a certain way?

Jarkko Immonen is starting to get a bunch of people voting for him. I don't understand how people can consider him the best prospect on the list. If Sanguinetti was on another team would anyone possibly hesitate in trading Immonen for him straight up? If not then how is he considered a better prospect? I understand Jarkko is much more ready to contribute on the NHL level but aren't we voting for who the better prospect is and not who the better player currently is?

This isn't necessarily a rant, Im honestly curious as to why people think hes a better prospect.

For the record I only picked Sanguinetti because thats who I voted for but the point still applies to others, such as Sauer and Pyatt, to name a couple.
I think allot of the love comes from the same people who wants Renney fired for not playing Immonen. It would be strange to then list him were he belongs on the prospect list, outside the top 10.

Nobody sane would trade Sanguetti for Immonen.

Lets say we sent Sanguetti for Jeff Taffe, I would go nuts...

I think its safe to say that Immonen is a bust, just like Lundmark. There is no hint of a upside, not even at the AHL level. He aren't getting involved offensivly enough at any level.

Pck is defenitly a better prospect then Immonen.

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01-18-2007, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think allot of the love comes from the same people who wants Renney fired for not playing Immonen. It would be strange to then list him were he belongs on the prospect list, outside the top 10.

Nobody sane would trade Sanguetti for Immonen.

Lets say we sent Sanguetti for Jeff Taffe, I would go nuts...

I think its safe to say that Immonen is a bust, just like Lundmark. There is no hint of a upside, not even at the AHL level. He aren't getting involved offensivly enough at any level.

Pck is defenitly a better prospect then Immonen.
Come on Ola, this has nothing to do with Renney. Immonen showed me enough in his limited time at the NHL level to make me feel like he belongs in some capacity, whether it is a second (doubtful) or third line center. That being said, I recognize that guys such as Sauer (my pick), Bobby Sanguinetti, MA Cliche, etc. have much higher upsides and some aren't that far away. So I'm one of those people who want Renney fired, dislike how he treated Immonen yet at the same time realize that we have better prospects.

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01-18-2007, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think allot of the love comes from the same people who wants Renney fired for not playing Immonen. It would be strange to then list him were he belongs on the prospect list, outside the top 10.

Nobody sane would trade Sanguetti for Immonen.

Lets say we sent Sanguetti for Jeff Taffe, I would go nuts...

I think its safe to say that Immonen is a bust, just like Lundmark. There is no hint of a upside, not even at the AHL level. He aren't getting involved offensivly enough at any level.

Pck is defenitly a better prospect then Immonen.
I'd have to STRONGLY disagree. Immonen can play in the NHL. He is 24 years old and already played good in the AHL, he came to the NHL and played solid there as well, he didn't play horrible offensively and wasnt a defensive liability. He will be an NHL player in a steady role for years to come, maybe just not with the Rangers.

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01-18-2007, 03:56 PM
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yeah, but offensive players who don't put it all together become Jason Krog. I don't think Immonen is gonna burst out into an offensive 2nd line center like we hoped, or beat out Dubinsky for that spot for that matter. If he wants a fruitful career in the NHL, IMO he ought to start working on other parts of his game towards being a strong 2-way center. Sauer, Pyatt, Sanger are all better prospects than Immonen right now. Those three are on their upsides while Immonen has to pull himself out from heading down.

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01-18-2007, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hour View Post
I don't see where people would think right now that Immonen has a "bigger upside" then Sanguinetti.
Sanguinetti hasn't proved anything on a pro level yet, and immonen has been very solid in the minors... Steady for the Rangers. Some people believe he can mold into a second line center... While many believe Sanguinetti most likely is a second pair defensemen, that could play the point on the powerplay... Its a matter of opinion, for they play two different positions...

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01-18-2007, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Apple View Post
Sanguinetti hasn't proved anything on a pro level yet, and immonen has been very solid in the minors... Steady for the Rangers. Some people believe he can mold into a second line center... While many believe Sanguinetti most likely is a second pair defensemen, that could play the point on the powerplay... Its a matter of opinion, for they play two different positions...
First, its not that just Sanguinetti can play the point on the powerplay, its that he can be an excellent pointman on the powerplay. The guy has 20 goals in 43 games this year as an 18 year old defenseman. If I remember correctly off the top of my head he leads the league in goals for a defenseman.

But again, its not really about Sanguinetti vs. Immonen. Its really just about why Immonen is rated so highly. For a fairer comparison lets compare Immonen to Pyatt. Both are centerman so it should be much easier to compare the two. Would anyone not take Pyatt for Immonen in a straight up deal?

I also want to add that I don't dislike Jarkko. There is room for him on an NHL club in my opinion. He's always in position and is a pretty smart player. I just don't think he has enough skill or speed to make him a 2nd line center, nor do I think he really has the defensive tenacity to use him on a shutdown line.

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01-18-2007, 04:44 PM
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People have different opinions on many of these players for a variety of reasons. One problem is the limited amount of viewing time of them playing that most fans have. I try to watch as many AHL/College games as I can and then make an assesment of a player, but one also needs to take into account that we view them in the minors, for limited minutes, and maybe only get a limited glimpse of them on the big stage, It's hard to make a judgement on how good/bad these players may be, and unless one really stands out, it's even harder to rank them correctly.

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01-18-2007, 04:54 PM
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The only way to do this is 'who would you want to trade least'? Like I said in another thread, I think Korpokoski has more value on the market than Dawes so I voted Korpi.

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01-18-2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think allot of the love comes from the same people who wants Renney fired for not playing Immonen. It would be strange to then list him were he belongs on the prospect list, outside the top 10.

Nobody sane would trade Sanguetti for Immonen.

Lets say we sent Sanguetti for Jeff Taffe, I would go nuts...

I think its safe to say that Immonen is a bust, just like Lundmark. There is no hint of a upside, not even at the AHL level. He aren't getting involved offensivly enough at any level.

Pck is defenitly a better prospect then Immonen.
No. Now Jessiman, that's a bust.

As for Immonen, I agree that Pock is a better prospect than him, but I think Pock gets more opportunities, i.e. more ice time. I think everyone on this board would agree that Immonen played well in his stint here, before being dropped down to the 4th line with the likes of Orr and Hollweg (who Renney believes has offensive potential ). He's a playmaker and is solid on D. Right now I'd like to see both Pock and Immonen on our 2nd PP unit.

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01-18-2007, 05:36 PM
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The most sound way to go about doing it, IMO, is to evaluate prospects with three factors: absolute potential, "safety", and maturity. I think raw skill and high-end potential should have the most weight. Chances to actually reach that potential are right behind. NHL-readiness/maturity is the least important; Colton Orr, for example, is an NHL goon... Thomas Pock is an NHL D-man... neither of those two appear to have impact capacity on the NHL level (I have Orr at 35 on my list).

I would certainly not have Sanguinetti above Immonen. In fact, he's no. 4 in my book - just behind Dubinsky. This is not because I think Dubinsky has greater potential, but is a safe bet to make it big. Immonen, for me, is only top 10 because he's had a couple NHL stints and is a top six forward in Hartford.

I'm not sure if this helps at all but here's my top 10 using this process:

1. Staal
2. Montoya
3. Dubinsky
4. Sanguinetti
5. Korpikoski (has great potential, is growing as a player, WILL make NHL)
6. Dawes (perhaps more upside than Dubinsky but seemed to lack hockey sense when he was up... granted, it was merely 8 games, but that's all we have to go on)
7. Anisimov (here almost entirely based on potentially)
8. Callahan
9. Immonen
10. Sauer (having a bad season but is as safe as a 20-year-old WHL D-man can be)

Based purely on upside:

1. Staal - no. 1 D-man
2. Sanguinetti - no. 2 D-man
3. Montoya - all-star caliber starting G
4. Anisimov - O. Jokinen-ish 1st line C
5. Russell - think of Steve Sullivan
6. Dawes - 2nd line sniper/agitator
7. Dubinsky - good 2nd line center, like Brian Rolston
8. Korpikoski - 2nd line 2-way winger/Kapanen
9. Kveton - 2nd line scorer/playmaker
10. Sauer - good no. 3 D-man

Based on likelihood to reach/stick in the NHL:

1. Orr
2. Moore
3. Immonen
4. Pock
5. Helminen
6. Montoya
7. Korpikoski
8. Staal
9. Dubinsky
10. Sauer

Still, I'm no expert and I change my list pretty often.

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01-18-2007, 06:38 PM
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Another thing to consider, in regards to Immonen, is this is only his 2nd season playing in North America. His lack of speed/acceleration might not have been noticable in the larger rinks used in Finland. Therefore his rating or ranking might have gotten a little boost compaired to other prospects. He seems to have solid play-making, defensive, and face-off skills. If he's able to improve his speed, then he might be a 2nd/3rd line player as some have projected.

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01-18-2007, 06:48 PM
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I think Immonen can be a 3rd liner regardless of his speed. Improved mobility will make the difference between a 3rd and 2nd line center.

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01-18-2007, 07:05 PM
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Interesting comments on the players mentioned. What about what has been accomplished so far in the current leagues for these players? You first need to be accomplished in the league you are in, performing in a positive consistent manner before you can speculate on the next step.

I doubt the opinions shared are based upon consistent results to date. The best measure of up side is the continual performance and difficulty of the challanges one is facing now.

Results are the best measure.

Performance is positive or negative.......the rest is all inconsequential.

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01-18-2007, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
I'd have to STRONGLY disagree. Immonen can play in the NHL. He is 24 years old and already played good in the AHL, he came to the NHL and played solid there as well, he didn't play horrible offensively and wasnt a defensive liability. He will be an NHL player in a steady role for years to come, maybe just not with the Rangers.
Maybe a comparison in terms of speed is Yannic Perrault. Not the fastest, yet he has played how long? Seems to be doing fine in the revised NHL.

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01-18-2007, 07:48 PM
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I judge them on trade value...

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01-18-2007, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
First, its not that just Sanguinetti can play the point on the powerplay, its that he can be an excellent pointman on the powerplay. The guy has 20 goals in 43 games this year as an 18 year old defenseman. If I remember correctly off the top of my head he leads the league in goals for a defenseman.

But again, its not really about Sanguinetti vs. Immonen. Its really just about why Immonen is rated so highly. For a fairer comparison lets compare Immonen to Pyatt. Both are centerman so it should be much easier to compare the two. Would anyone not take Pyatt for Immonen in a straight up deal?

I also want to add that I don't dislike Jarkko. There is room for him on an NHL club in my opinion. He's always in position and is a pretty smart player. I just don't think he has enough skill or speed to make him a 2nd line center, nor do I think he really has the defensive tenacity to use him on a shutdown line.
U have to remember that this is only immonens second year playing hockey in North America. You can't teach hockey smarts and ability which immonen has... You can teach speed and stick position, which is something imimonen is working on now as of this moment... He still has second line potential, will he max out his potential nobody knows as of right now...

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01-19-2007, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Apple View Post
U have to remember that this is only immonens second year playing hockey in North America. You can't teach hockey smarts and ability which immonen has... You can teach speed and stick position, which is something imimonen is working on now as of this moment... He still has second line potential, will he max out his potential nobody knows as of right now...
I could be wrong but I was under the impression that you can't teach speed. Either you are fast or you aren't. You can improve with hard work but It's not gonna turn Immonen into a speedster. Immonen speed is well below NHL average right now for a foward and Id be severly surprised if he ever reaches even the average level.

I do agree with you that he has some very good "hockey smarts" though.

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01-19-2007, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think allot of the love comes from the same people who wants Renney fired for not playing Immonen.
First, I gotta say, Ola, this is a pretty wacky comment from a level headed guy like yourself. Hopefully you were hitting the Aquavit when you wrote it or something.

Seems like every time we get back in the prospect polls, you realize that everyone is applying different "weight" to different aspects of a player. Some favor a player with a higher potential upside. Others weigh likelihood of making it the NHL more heavily, or perhaps even how close a player is to making it to the NHL. There's also a phenomenen where propsects are highly regarded by knowledgeable and well respected HF poster, and in turn, the perception is adopted by a community largely shut off from any first hand knowledge of these prospects. I can honestly say that BigE's reports on Pyatt, or Edge's feelings about Hillier have had an impact my opinions of those players.

You just have to realize that the poll isn't perfect, but if nothing else, those threads tend to spark some discussion and debate and a rough idea of boards' rankings. I don't see how these rankings are any more debateable, or even skewed, than anyone elses.

As for Immonen, he's proven he can be an NHL player in some capacity. I don't consider him a prospect anymore at all and I won't be voting for him or Pock this time around.

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01-19-2007, 12:02 PM
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Ola
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Melrose, FLY and dontstaal-

The best scouts in the world can missjudge a prospect allot. I could defenitly be wrong on Immonen.

But, given the perimeters other players are judged by, like Marcel Hossa, I don't think that I am far off to belive that if it weren't for the support Immonen had long before he got a chance to play, he wouldn't have so many backers right now. Jarkko is 6 month younger then Hossa. He got like 5 years experience of pro hockey.

The biggest reason for why I expect him to bust is because he have no flaws. Lets say that he were playing as well as he does, but skated really bad, or something like that, there would be room for improvement. I just don't see any real room for improvement with him, and what he is showing right now isn't nearly good enough. I would feel better with Hossa on the wing on a 2nd line then Immonen centering it.

Immonen aren't showing me enough at the AHL level to expect him to improve in the NHL. He is good at executing plays, but don't get involved enough. He never creates open ice for himself.

Though I have no problem what so ever if someone belive otherwise, Immonen would need to pick up his intensity a few notches to really get involved, thats defenitly not impossible, but like I said, what I do belive is strange is how many supports Immonen, and how few support Hossa for example.

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01-19-2007, 01:01 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
...what I do belive is strange is how many supports Immonen, and how few support Hossa for example.
Hossa undoubtedly looks better doing whatever he does out there than Immo, but in 34 more games this season, has amassed a grand total of 1 more point than Jarkko. We know what Hossa brings to the table and it's barely tangible. Which you prefer shouldn't matter, the fact is, this team needs offense and Immonen brings more on average than anyone who's displaced him.

Anyway, I'm not sure how the a thread about prospect polls became Hossa vs. Immonen, a guy who isn't a prospect and a guy who shouldn't be. I was more surpised that you think Jarkko is getting a pity vote than the fact that you're not a fan of his.

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01-19-2007, 03:43 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
I'd have to STRONGLY disagree. Immonen can play in the NHL. He is 24 years old and already played good in the AHL, he came to the NHL and played solid there as well, he didn't play horrible offensively and wasnt a defensive liability. He will be an NHL player in a steady role for years to come, maybe just not with the Rangers.
If a player doesn't make it by the age of 24 I'd guess he has a less than 5% chance of a menaingful NHL career, especially forwards.

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