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Trade Thread Part XI: New year...no trades.

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Old
01-03-2014, 03:54 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Fair points. And if the argument is Girardi could break down, or isn't worth $5M+ per, I totally get it. I just take issue with the "doesn't fit" argument. Especially when the round hole the Rangers are trying to force the defense into has little track record for success. And requires a significant roster overhaul, based on hoping you find the right prospects. Seems a bit like grasping in the dark to me.
That's fair, but I think the "doesn't fit" argument becomes more prevalent when you consider it as a part of the bigger picture. Picking the guy that you know isn't a fit in fear of the gamble on someone who might be seems like a safe play but, like I said, I think both moves have their fair share of risk.

Too often we've seen this team jettison the players that do fit in favor of ones who might fit. I think the opposite might be worth a shot for a change.

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01-03-2014, 03:56 PM
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We aren't getting Burns unless we give up McD.
Yeah, seems really unlikely.

That is one of the problems. There just doesn't seem to be one good fit this year in terms of really desperate teams, let alone two or three so that you can get a bidding situation.

EDM is a fit from some perspectives, like getting Cally and Girardi would definitely head-start the extremely painful process they are in to get to the next level. OTOH, very few want to play there. Doesn't seem likely at all that even if they were willing and we were willing, Cally and G would resign with them.

A team like Vancouver is maybe a bit desperate, but what could we get from them? If Edler were a RD, like him and Kassian might be something to consider. But Edler is a LD and they really don't have much else.

LA might look for a bit of a shake-up, but what can they give up?

Philly is always looking, but its easy to propose on a message board that we should trade Cally and or G to Philly, in real life you would probably fear the consequences a bit...

SJ? Minny?

Col? ROR

Wasington? Could Mike Green be had lol?

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Old
01-03-2014, 03:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
A couple responses to the "who fills Girardi's minutes" comment...

1. Girardi does nothing on the PP, so those mintues can be handed off to Stralman, Allen, ect without substantial loss.

2. On the PK, the handedness of a defenseman is less important. So NYR could run 2 pairings, those being McD, Stralman and Staal, Del Zotto or Staal-Moore

3. For ES, you'd have to move someone over. That is the big problem, because to me the main reason for Del Zotto's recent struggles have been the fact that he was the guy forced over onto the right hand side. You could try McDonagh over there, or really anyone, just not Del Zotto.
Who would you move over to take top pair minutes? Could Staal move over? Could McDonagh move over to the right? If those are not possibilities, then I don't see how you could replace Girardi effectively. The D-Man just aren't there in the system or on the team to replace the loss of a 1st pair RHD.

I agree that you can easily replace him on the PP and the PK to a lesser extent. For ES though, Stralman can't do the job of 1st pair RHD against some of the top lines in the league every night and if you can't move Staal or McDonagh to the right side, its going to be a huge problem. Besides, who can the Rangers sign in free agency that is a bargain compared to Girardi that could do a good job as a 1st pair RHD? I just don't see that player out there in free agency.

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01-03-2014, 04:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Yeah, seems really unlikely.

That is one of the problems. There just doesn't seem to be one good fit this year in terms of really desperate teams, let alone two or three so that you can get a bidding situation.

EDM is a fit from some perspectives, like getting Cally and Girardi would definitely head-start the extremely painful process they are in to get to the next level. OTOH, very few want to play there. Doesn't seem likely at all that even if they were willing and we were willing, Cally and G would resign with them.

A team like Vancouver is maybe a bit desperate, but what could we get from them? If Edler were a RD, like him and Kassian might be something to consider. But Edler is a LD and they really don't have much else.

LA might look for a bit of a shake-up, but what can they give up?

Philly is always looking, but its easy to propose on a message board that we should trade Cally and or G to Philly, in real life you would probably fear the consequences a bit...

SJ? Minny?

Col? ROR

Wasington? Could Mike Green be had lol?
With Seidenberg out for the season, I could easily see Girardi to Boston.

Fraser + Khok + 1st


Callahan would fit in well in Vancouver but I don't think they move the pieces necessary. Maybe Chicago goes for it this year. They have too many prospects as it is and not all of them will be able to play either now or in the future.

Clendening + McNeil +

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01-03-2014, 04:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by rangersfan9 View Post
Who would you move over to take top pair minutes? Could Staal move over? Could McDonagh move over to the right? If those are not possibilities, then I don't see how you could replace Girardi effectively. The D-Man just aren't there in the system or on the team to replace the loss of a 1st pair RHD.

I agree that you can easily replace him on the PP and the PK to a lesser extent. For ES though, Stralman can't do the job of 1st pair RHD against some of the top lines in the league every night and if you can't move Staal or McDonagh to the right side, its going to be a huge problem. Besides, who can the Rangers sign in free agency that is a bargain compared to Girardi that could do a good job as a 1st pair RHD? I just don't see that player out there in free agency.
No, they can't. But signing Girardi to a big money deal for a long time does nothing for the future of the organization either.

Add assets to the stable to wait to see if someone becomes available in the off-season. There were rumblings Buff was available (not saying I like him or not, just an example).

Losing Girardi for nothing or overpaying him are 2 very bad options

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01-03-2014, 04:03 PM
  #56
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ha that would be like a dream if they can get Jurco



I think Jurco is gonna be a great player
I think Tartar/Jurco/Nyquist will replace Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Franzen.

They literally have a rotating wheel of great core players.

Then they have young guys like Sheahan, Abdelkader, and Glendenning, to build around the core as good complementary players.

Bright future.

Anyway give me Tartar or Jurco pls

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01-03-2014, 04:03 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by rangersfan9 View Post
Who would you move over to take top pair minutes? Could Staal move over? Could McDonagh move over to the right? If those are not possibilities, then I don't see how you could replace Girardi effectively. The D-Man just aren't there in the system or on the team to replace the loss of a 1st pair RHD.

I agree that you can easily replace him on the PP and the PK to a lesser extent. For ES though, Stralman can't do the job of 1st pair RHD against some of the top lines in the league every night and if you can't move Staal or McDonagh to the right side, its going to be a huge problem. Besides, who can the Rangers sign in free agency that is a bargain compared to Girardi that could do a good job as a 1st pair RHD? I just don't see that player out there in free agency.
One thing that you can do is trade Del Zotto for Franson + and Girardi for what he returns (It would have to be significant.)

Then you have two 2nd pairing type right defensemen, and two 1st pairing left defensemen. Run

McDonagh-Franson
Staal-Stralman
Moore-Allen/Falk

For the time being. So the glut of LD and lack of right D is solved by moving Del Zotto for a similar right D.

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01-03-2014, 04:06 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by rangersfan9 View Post
Who would you move over to take top pair minutes? Could Staal move over? Could McDonagh move over to the right? If those are not possibilities, then I don't see how you could replace Girardi effectively. The D-Man just aren't there in the system or on the team to replace the loss of a 1st pair RHD.

I agree that you can easily replace him on the PP and the PK to a lesser extent. For ES though, Stralman can't do the job of 1st pair RHD against some of the top lines in the league every night and if you can't move Staal or McDonagh to the right side, its going to be a huge problem. Besides, who can the Rangers sign in free agency that is a bargain compared to Girardi that could do a good job as a 1st pair RHD? I just don't see that player out there in free agency.
This is the issue that others have addressed that I think you may have missed. In making the move, you acknowledge that you don't have a first pair RHD waiting in the wings; you accept the fact that you'll have a suboptimal lineup for at least a year... because you know in so doing you're much more likely to have a real cup contender 2-3 years down the road.

And yes, there is risk involved - you're going to have to find that guy eventually. But, you don't keep Girardi and give him a 6 x $6MM contract now, simply because you don't already know who's going to take his minutes in 18-24 months. You accept being worse now for the sake of being better then - and work on solving those problems one at a time as you build back up.

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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
No, they can't. But signing Girardi to a big money deal for a long time does nothing for the future of the organization either.

Add assets to the stable to wait to see if someone becomes available in the off-season. There were rumblings Buff was available (not saying I like him or not, just an example).

Losing Girardi for nothing or overpaying him are 2 very bad options
Exactly. And let's not forget that Girardi himself came damn nearly literally out of nowhere. He was an undrafted FA. Hell, for all we know Conor Allen is the second coming of Girardi, even though he shoots left. Or next summer another Girardi-like player could be available as an UFA. Or we might draft him in the 3rd round this year. We have no idea who will play his role two years from now, but that shouldn't push us to signing a bad fit to a bad deal.

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01-03-2014, 04:06 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont see the point of massively overpaying Girardi just because the team doesnt have an immediate replacement.

For decades, the Rangers have panicked over holes in the lineup - and it often led to longterm problems, doing more bad than good, causing the team to take steps backwards.

Whats wrong with trying something different? Whats wrong with purposefully taking a couple of steps back as part of a plan to get better in the future?
Was signing Hank to a ridiculous contract signs of rebuilding? Doing a half way rebuilding job never works. If its a full rebuilding job, then trade Girardi, Callahan, Staal, Nash and Lundqvist, but if the team is still going to try to contend, they can't afford to trade Girardi. Half way rebuilding jobs don't work.

I agree that panicking over a hole in the line up is not the smart way to go, but if the Rangers actually think they are going to be a contender for the cup with this group, you can't afford to move a player like Girardi.

I'm not saying overpay the guy, but sign him to a fair deal. If this group is still going for the cup, don't treat him with no respect like he could easily be replaced, because the truth is that he can't be easily replaced, and letting Girardi go would hurt the team defensively, big time.

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01-03-2014, 04:10 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
This is the issue that others have addressed that I think you may have missed. In making the move, you acknowledge that you don't have a first pair RHD waiting in the wings; you accept the fact that you'll have a suboptimal lineup for at least a year... because you know in so doing you're much more likely to have a real cup contender 2-3 years down the road.

And yes, there is risk involved - you're going to have to find that guy eventually. But, you don't keep Girardi and give him a 6 x $6MM contract now, simply because you don't already know who's going to take his minutes in 18-24 months. You accept being worse now for the sake of being better then - and work on solving those problems one at a time as you build back up.
I haven't missed that, I just don't understand why the team would try a half way rebuilding job. Why just look to trade the guys that are out of contract soon? Why not look to trade Nash, Staal and Hank who's value in three or four years isn't likely to be anywhere near what it is now? I just don't like halfway rebuilding jobs. It never works. You either clean house or you pay the guys that you think can help you now to win the cup.

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01-03-2014, 04:11 PM
  #61
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Was signing Hank to a ridiculous contract signs of rebuilding? Doing a half way rebuilding job never works. If its a full rebuilding job, then trade Girardi, Callahan, Staal, Nash and Lundqvist, but if the team is still going to try to contend, they can't afford to trade Girardi. Half way rebuilding jobs don't work.

I agree that panicking over a hole in the line up is not the smart way to go, but if the Rangers actually think they are going to be a contender for the cup with this group, you can't afford to move a player like Girardi.

I'm not saying overpay the guy, but sign him to a fair deal. If this group is still going for the cup, don't treat him with no respect like he could easily be replaced, because the truth is that he can't be easily replaced, and letting Girardi go would hurt the team defensively, big time.
You can still retool. Trade Callahan and Girardi for some young pieces that can grow with the team and be part of your core in the future. See what you can get for Staal. Hell, I'd dangle Nash out there, though now might not be the time to do it.

It's painfully obvious that what the Rangers are doing now isn't working.

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01-03-2014, 04:13 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
One thing that you can do is trade Del Zotto for Franson + and Girardi for what he returns (It would have to be significant.)

Then you have two 2nd pairing type right defensemen, and two 1st pairing left defensemen. Run

McDonagh-Franson
Staal-Stralman
Moore-Allen/Falk

For the time being. So the glut of LD and lack of right D is solved by moving Del Zotto for a similar right D.
Exactly. I'm not a fan of Franson, but if you can land a 2nd pairing defender in a deal for Del Zotto, you can spread the minutes out more evenly amongst the defense for the remainder of the season.

There are plenty of options. Perhaps getting a young kid who can grow into bigger minutes is the best solution.

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01-03-2014, 04:20 PM
  #63
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You can still retool. Trade Callahan and Girardi for some young pieces that can grow with the team and be part of your core in the future. See what you can get for Staal. Hell, I'd dangle Nash out there, though now might not be the time to do it.

It's painfully obvious that what the Rangers are doing now isn't working.
I agree the team is mediocre and overrated. I just don't understand why Hank was given a ridiculous contract. How is that going to help the team in the next few years when they are trying to rebuild? When giving an older player a large contract, you are banking on them helping you the next few years and just dealing with the consequences for the last few years of the deal when their level of play falls off. How does it help the team if Hank plays well for a few years at a huge price and then sucks when the team is planning on contending again? Thats called a halfway rebuilding job. You either tear it all down or you don't tear any of it down. Sather either thinks the team can still contend or he is an even bigger moron than I thought. I'm really not sure which one it is.

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01-03-2014, 04:26 PM
  #64
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Was signing Hank to a ridiculous contract signs of rebuilding? Doing a half way rebuilding job never works. If its a full rebuilding job, then trade Girardi, Callahan, Staal, Nash and Lundqvist, but if the team is still going to try to contend, they can't afford to trade Girardi. Half way rebuilding jobs don't work.

I agree that panicking over a hole in the line up is not the smart way to go, but if the Rangers actually think they are going to be a contender for the cup with this group, you can't afford to move a player like Girardi.

I'm not saying overpay the guy, but sign him to a fair deal. If this group is still going for the cup, don't treat him with no respect like he could easily be replaced, because the truth is that he can't be easily replaced, and letting Girardi go would hurt the team defensively, big time.
They're not rebuilding. They could re-tool, though. This core has run its course, in my opinion. Lundqvist wasn't going to be the casualty. He is the face of the franchise and the first half of his career has been HOF caliber. Callahan and Girardi are nowhere near that level. Whats the sense in overpaying them? Turn the page.

Recoup some assets that fit the speed and skill mold. Dont ****ing change course after 2 or 3 years. Pick something and stick with it.

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01-03-2014, 04:32 PM
  #65
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Hearing Rangers have asked about Barrie

https://twitter.com/adater/status/419233827525898240

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01-03-2014, 04:34 PM
  #66
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Barrie is far too small for my liking as an NHL blueliner.

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01-03-2014, 04:35 PM
  #67
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Barrie is far too small for my liking as an NHL blueliner.
My grandmother used to say "Beggars can't be choosers"

I think the Rangers are in that situation in regards to unloading Del Zotto.

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01-03-2014, 04:36 PM
  #68
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I agree the team is mediocre and overrated. I just don't understand why Hank was given a ridiculous contract. How is that going to help the team in the next few years when they are trying to rebuild? When giving an older player a large contract, you are banking on them helping you the next few years and just dealing with the consequences for the last few years of the deal when their level of play falls off. How does it help the team if Hank plays well for a few years at a huge price and then sucks when the team is planning on contending again? Thats called a halfway rebuilding job. You either tear it all down or you don't tear any of it down. Sather either thinks the team can still contend or he is an even bigger moron than I thought. I'm really not sure which one it is.
In some extent we have to rebuild, retool or whatever you may call it. The current rooster is built for Torts hockey. AV was brought here to change things, but he can't do that alone the personnel have to change as well.

Girardi for example have struggle a lot this season adjusting to the new system although he has picked it up quite a bit lately, but still is he a first pairing d that AV prefers? I don't think so.

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01-03-2014, 04:38 PM
  #69
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Barrie is far too small for my liking as an NHL blueliner.
2 inches and 5lbs smaller.

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01-03-2014, 04:39 PM
  #70
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The day Lundqvist was resigned, was the signal that this team won't be drafting (with their own pick) in the top ten for about a decade.

That is the reality we have to work with going forward.

Its going to be back-fill UFAs to fill out the roster, and hope-and-pray-picks like Duclair.
In the last ten years, only the Red Wings have won a cup without a top pick in their lineup so you're going to need better than hope-and-pray picks to win the cup. you'll need like 6 of them. You need to draft top 5-like players in the top 30. A case can be made for Boston as Seguin didn't have the biggest role in their cup run. Anaheim flipped their high picks into Pronger but 2003's haul of Getzlaf and Perry were pretty instrumental. Again, that's hitting gold twice. Kane, Toews, Doughty E.Staal, Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Lecavlier round up their other teams hauls.

Detroit's team had Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, and oh maybe one of the best defensemen of all time Lidstrom. Their big UFAs were Rafalski and Hasek. Brad Stuart their one big trade. Their depth was pretty bonkers too with Draper, McCarthy, and Drake, Maltby, Holstrom, Samuelsson, Cleary, Helm, Filppula. All pretty tough players to play against. Two elite players and a lot of tough players. That's nothing close to the team we are currently suiting.


TLDR - You need to draft top 5-like players in the top 30.

we are not so we got a long ways to go if we want to compete for the cup.

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01-03-2014, 04:40 PM
  #71
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We need RD and a top 6 forward

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01-03-2014, 04:41 PM
  #72
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adater ‏@adater 2m
Hearing Rangers have asked about Barrie

https://twitter.com/adater/status/419233827525898240
Would make sense. RHD, can run a PP and has upside. Avs fans seem to think he's worth a ton, but I think the Rangers would want Barrie+ for Del Zotto. Change of scenery for both players, and the guy with the proven history gets a value bump.

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01-03-2014, 04:42 PM
  #73
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adater ‏@adater 2m
Hearing Rangers have asked about Barrie

https://twitter.com/adater/status/419233827525898240
MDZ for John Mitchell, Nate Guenin, and Marc-Andre Cliche

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01-03-2014, 04:43 PM
  #74
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Rangers need to rebuild their whole development structure. We'll need to hold on to those draft picks we have and getting a few more certainly isn't going to hurt.

The problem is that guys you draft this summer aren't likely to be showing up on your roster for 2-3-4-5 years. When you're talking about moving guys like Callahan or Girardi just for draft picks--who's going to play that first pair RD for you next year and the year after while you're waiting for the draft pick to be ready? Whether you like Girardi or not there's a guarantee there of a quality NHL player. The same goes with Callahan. You've created a void and you're going to have to fill that void while waiting around for your draft picks to be ready. In the meantime Henrik who've you just signed for 7 years turns 32, 33, 34, 35. So what the ****? Draft picks are hypothetical NHL'ers until they actually play in the NHL. Doesn't matter if they're 1st rounders or 7th rounders until they're actually playing in the NHL. Girardi and Callahan are not hypothetical players.

So if you're going to trade guys like that getting back younger already drafted players who are already developing well can be a better deal than draft picks--unless we're talking maybe about the top 10 of the first round. Weaker teams have no need for upcoming UFA vets like Girardi or Callahan though. They're likely to find better teams over the summer for next year so the likelihood of getting a top 10 first rounder is very poor.

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01-03-2014, 04:47 PM
  #75
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I agree the team is mediocre and overrated. I just don't understand why Hank was given a ridiculous contract. How is that going to help the team in the next few years when they are trying to rebuild? When giving an older player a large contract, you are banking on them helping you the next few years and just dealing with the consequences for the last few years of the deal when their level of play falls off. How does it help the team if Hank plays well for a few years at a huge price and then sucks when the team is planning on contending again? Thats called a halfway rebuilding job. You either tear it all down or you don't tear any of it down. Sather either thinks the team can still contend or he is an even bigger moron than I thought. I'm really not sure which one it is.
It's both. He thinks that an elite goalie surrounded by big steamy piles of doodoo is a contender. It's the same thing with him ever since 2005.

So yes, he might be a bigger moron than you thought, though that depends on how big of a moron you originally thought he was.

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