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Old
01-03-2014, 12:58 PM
  #151
StefanW
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Suppose it would be facetious to suggest Michalek's sudden found confidence in his knee just happened to align itself with the opportunity to play with Zibanejad.
While Michalek's problems early in the year were not all Spezza's fault, the fact is Spezza wasn't helping with his poor puck management and less than stellar defensive zone play.

A line that had produced very little in the way of offense changes one player and over three games produces 4 goals, 6 assists, 25 shots on goal and was a +11, is an indication of more than just Michalek feeling good about his knee.
Yeah, playing apart from a struggling Spezza helps, and yeah 9MM spent most of the season playing alongside Spezza. Yes, 9MM's underlying numbers improve when he is not playing with Spezza. That much we can agree on.

However, I do think that it is incorrect to assume that the jump in 9MM's production is only about who he is playing with. As I've already said, 9MM's game has been different, and much improved, over the past couple of weeks. Spezza has only been gone for three games of that, which means 9MM's game got much better before Spezza was injured. Add in the fact that 9MM did not play solely with Spezza as lines were juggled early in the year, and until the past few weeks his production was poor regardless of who he was playing with, and it all adds up to me coming to the conclusion that you are incorrect about his knee having little or nothing to do with it. But whatever, I can live with agreeing to disagree.

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01-03-2014, 01:09 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by dingbatz View Post
Then you block the person and you move on. Bringing it up over and over again like I often see you do (and you see here I'm being very specific) is petty and it just makes you look like you have a superiority complex.
Believe me, I don't have a superiority complex. The person that piss me off the most on this planet is myself. I think my life is worth as much as an African kid struggling to survive and that every person should be equal even though some have attributes that others don't. But I had the chance to have an education and I'm trying to use it the best I can (college teach you to have an objective approach). I'm trying to change views and influence people to form a critical approach based on facts and perspective. I'm like that (and it plays a big part in my daily job too) and I can't change it. Not saying I'm perfect at that either, but at least I try. I have a problem with opinions based on nothing but bias and hate. Anyone can have those coming out of their pink hole and it doesn't take any effort or thought process to do so. All I'm asking is a bit of effort, even if it is just 1% of what they are asking from their favorite team players. In the end, what I want is that people start to show respect to athletes. It's so easy to bash on the anonymous internet, but frankly, it makes you a real ***** if you do so IMO. Yes, athletes make a lot of money, but money isn't the end and be all (not sure if that's correct), they deserve respect and support, they are not robots. Money makes life easier but doesn't bring happiness, believe me

As strange as it sounds, I have never blocked anyone on HF (however I agree I could have saved a lot of time by doing it). I don't think I need to do it. I have seen many posters improve a lot over the years. MAK is an example, I couldn't stand his posts in the beginning but now I'm interested to read him. Same thing with many others, when the bias aren't too heavy, they can make interesting posts.

All that being said, my next post below is a perfect example of what I'm trying to do around here

Quote:
Originally Posted by trobby View Post
Overall, I think Corvo's game has been good.
He hasn't had to many brain farts.

If you look at the whole season up to this point, Phillips and Cowen have been worse.
Phillips by far...the game is too fast for him now.
Perfect example of a totally biased post.

Corvo has been good but Phillips and Cowen have been worse?

Chris Phillips = 29 ESGA in 591:01 ice-time
Jared Cowen = 25 ESGA in 662:44 ice-time
Joe Corvo = 20 ESGA in 368:16 ice-time

What does it mean?

Chris Phillips = 1 goal against at ES every 20.4 minutes played
Jared Cowen = 1 goal against at ES every 26.5 minutes played
Joe Corvo = 1 goal against at ES every 18.4 minutes played

And that's without saying that Corvo face way easier assignements than either Cowen or Phillips...

So if that's the case (Corvo has been better), why do they have better defensive numbers and why does the coaching staff play them more and put them in tougher/key situations?


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01-03-2014, 01:17 PM
  #153
aragorn
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Believe me, I don't have a superiority complex. The person that piss me off the most on this planet is myself. I think my life is worth as much as an African kid struggling to survive and that every person should be equal even though some have attributes that others don't. But I had the chance to have an education and I'm trying to use it the best I can (college teach you to have an objective approach). I'm trying to change views and influence people to form a critical approach based on facts and perspective. I'm like that (and it plays a big part in my daily job too) and I can't change it. Not saying I'm perfect at that either, but at least I try. I have a problem with opinions based on nothing but bias and hate. Anyone can have those coming out of their pink hole and it doesn't take any effort or thought process to do so. All I'm asking is a bit of effort, even if it is just 1% of what they are asking from their favorite team players. In the end, what I want is that people start to show respect to athletes. It's so easy to bash on the anonymous internet, but frankly, it makes you a real ***** if you do so IMO. Yes, athletes make a lot of money, but money isn't the end and be all (not sure if that's correct), they deserve respect and support, they are not robots. Money makes life easier but doesn't bring happiness, believe me

As strange as it sounds, I have never blocked anyone on HF (however I agree I could have saved a lot of time by doing it). I don't think I need to do it. I have seen many posters improve a lot over the years. MAK is an example, I couldn't stand his posts in the beginning but now I'm interested to read him. Same thing with many others, when the bias aren't too heavy, they can make interesting posts.

All that being said, my next post below is a perfect example of what I'm trying to do around here



Perfect example of a totally biased post.

Corvo has been good but Phillips and Cowen have been worse?

Chris Phillips = 29 ESGA in 591:01 ice-time
Jared Cowen = 25 ESGA in 662:44 ice-time
Joe Corvo = 20 ESGA in 368:16 ice-time

What does it mean?

Chris Phillips = 1 goal against at ES every 20.4 minutes played
Jared Cowen = 1 goal against at ES every 26.5 minutes played
Joe Corvo = 1 goal against at ES every 18.4 minutes played

And that's without saying that Corvo face way easier assignements than either Cowen or Phillips...

So if that's the case (Corvo has been better), why do they have better defensive numbers and why does the coaching staff play them more and put them in tougher/key situations?
You realize that the same can be said for Greening, right? He plays a lot of minutes in various situations & a good deal when the game is on the line.

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01-03-2014, 01:23 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
You realize that the same can be said for Greening, right? He plays a lot of minutes in various situations & a good deal when the game is on the line.
Greening is playing well defensively and I appreciate his tenacity and forecheck but he is not producing. No problem for now as he makes only 816 667$ but when his new cap hit kicks in next year (2 650 000$), we can't afford to have him not producing

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01-03-2014, 01:34 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Suppose it would be facetious to suggest Michalek's sudden found confidence in his knee just happened to align itself with the opportunity to play with Zibanejad.

While Michalek's problems early in the year were not all Spezza's fault, the fact is Spezza wasn't helping with his poor puck management and less than stellar defensive zone play.

A line that had produced very little in the way of offense changes one player and over three games produces 4 goals, 6 assists, 25 shots on goal and was a +11, is an indication of more than just Michalek feeling good about his knee.
To be fair, Neither one helped the other early on in the season, and both have better underlying numbers away from one another. Michalek's play has been progressing since before Spezza's injury, and his skating has looked more explosive over the past 10 or so games, not just the last 3.

People are looking to pin things on Spezza and allowing confirmation bias to throw him under the bus for everybody elses struggles. Spezza has not been good this year, and that's on him, but blaming him for everybody elses struggles borders on the ridiculous.

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01-03-2014, 01:54 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by StefanW View Post
Yeah, playing apart from a struggling Spezza helps, and yeah 9MM spent most of the season playing alongside Spezza. Yes, 9MM's underlying numbers improve when he is not playing with Spezza. That much we can agree on.

However, I do think that it is incorrect to assume that the jump in 9MM's production is only about who he is playing with. As I've already said, 9MM's game has been different, and much improved, over the past couple of weeks. Spezza has only been gone for three games of that, which means 9MM's game got much better before Spezza was injured. Add in the fact that 9MM did not play solely with Spezza as lines were juggled early in the year, and until the past few weeks his production was poor regardless of who he was playing with, and it all adds up to me coming to the conclusion that you are incorrect about his knee having little or nothing to do with it. But whatever, I can live with agreeing to disagree.
Don't disagree with what you have written from a historical perspective, nor do I disagree that Michalek production didn't increase when playing with Smith, Pageau or Turris.

I also don't disagree Michalek had been playing better 8 - 10 games prior to Zibanejad being inserted on the Michalek-Conacher line.

However I do disagree that his knee was a significant factor, since it seems we both agree he was playing better prior to Spezza's injury without a jump in his production.

What has changed for Michalek in the past three games is the ability of Zibanejad to get the puck up the ice quickly and create offensive opportunity.

Fact is Michalek and Conacher are both more productive since Zibanejad took over from Spezza. I don't believe you can account for this by suggesting Michalek is feeling more confident with his knee.

IMO Zibanejad's ability to play better defense, move the puck quickly and create offensive opportunities are the reasons for the sudden resurgence in Michalek and the blossoming of Conacher.

For these reason I guess we will agree to disagree.

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01-03-2014, 02:16 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
To be fair, Neither one helped the other early on in the season, and both have better underlying numbers away from one another. Michalek's play has been progressing since before Spezza's injury, and his skating has looked more explosive over the past 10 or so games, not just the last 3.

People are looking to pin things on Spezza and allowing confirmation bias to throw him under the bus for everybody elses struggles. Spezza has not been good this year, and that's on him, but blaming him for everybody elses struggles borders on the ridiculous.
Fact is a few are attempting to suggest the play of the Spezza line without Spezza is now due to Michalek's better play is equally flawed.

Spezza played with Michalek and Conacher for a number of games prior to his injury against Boston. I believe we both agree Michalek was playing well during that time and even before being reunited with Spez.

So if I compare the three games prior to Spezza's injury to the three games with Zibby here is what it looks like.

With Spezza 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, -1, 15 shots.
With Zibby 4 goals, 6 assists, 10 points, +11, 25 shots.

While I agree people shouldn't blame Spezza for things he can't control, the fact is Spezza having a tough time hasn't helped his wingers be as good as they could be.

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01-03-2014, 02:24 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Don't disagree with what you have written from a historical perspective, nor do I disagree that Michalek production didn't increase when playing with Smith, Pageau or Turris.

I also don't disagree Michalek had been playing better 8 - 10 games prior to Zibanejad being inserted on the Michalek-Conacher line.

However I do disagree that his knee was a significant factor, since it seems we both agree he was playing better prior to Spezza's injury without a jump in his production.

What has changed for Michalek in the past three games is the ability of Zibanejad to get the puck up the ice quickly and create offensive opportunity.

Fact is Michalek and Conacher are both more productive since Zibanejad took over from Spezza. I don't believe you can account for this by suggesting Michalek is feeling more confident with his knee.

IMO Zibanejad's ability to play better defense, move the puck quickly and create offensive opportunities are the reasons for the sudden resurgence in Michalek and the blossoming of Conacher.

For these reason I guess we will agree to disagree.
I think it would be fair to suggest that playing with Zibanejad combined with his generally better play as of late has lead to his recent resurgence.

Conacher has been playing quite well for the last 10-15 games imo, and I'd credit that to earning the coaching staffs trust (he's been playing quite a bit better without the puck lately) more than playing with Zibanejad. he happens to be putting in points right now, so maybe there is more to it, but he's also been getting a lot more ice-time since going onto Zibanejad's line. I think regular shifts really are helping both Conacher and Zibanejad reach their potential.

Here's hoping Spezza can eventually come back fully healthy and somewhat closer to his 2011-12 form, because if he can anchor a line with Greening and say Stone, we could have good lines and roll them pretty evenly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Fact is a few are attempting to suggest the play of the Spezza line without Spezza is now due to Michalek's better play is equally flawed.

Spezza played with Michalek and Conacher for a number of games prior to his injury against Boston. I believe we both agree Michalek was playing well during that time and even before being reunited with Spez.

So if I compare the three games prior to Spezza's injury to the three games with Zibby here is what it looks like.

With Spezza 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, -1, 15 shots.
With Zibby 4 goals, 6 assists, 10 points, +11, 25 shots.

While I agree people shouldn't blame Spezza for things he can't control, the fact is Spezza having a tough time hasn't helped his wingers be as good as they could be.
I don't disagree with the bolded, though I'd suggest looking at two 3 game samples is a little unfair. Phx, Bos(rel. healthy) and Pitts(on a tear, but lost of injuries) vs Wpg, Was, and Bos(no Chara or Sied) are not the same playing field.


Last edited by Micklebot: 01-03-2014 at 02:35 PM.
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Old
01-03-2014, 02:33 PM
  #159
StefanW
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
I think it would be fair to suggest that playing with Zibanejad combined with his generally better play as of late has lead to his recent resurgence.

Conacher has been playing quite well for the last 10-15 games imo, and I'd credit that to earning the coaching staffs trust (he's been playing quite a bit better without the puck lately) more than playing with Zibanejad. he happens to be putting in points right now, so maybe there is more to it, but he's also been getting a lot more ice-time since going onto Zibanejad's line. I think regular shifts really are helping both Conacher and Zibanejad reach their potential.

Here's hoping Spezza can eventually come back fully healthy and somewhat closer to his 2011-12 form, because if he can anchor a line with Greening and say Stone, we could have good lines and roll them pretty evenly.
Yeah to all of this. We have more than one line going at the moment, and that has helped the team tremendously. In fact, the Turris line which has been carrying us all year has struggled in the past few games. The more lines we have going at the same time, the more likely we are to win hockey games and squeak into the playoffs.

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01-03-2014, 03:07 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
I think it would be fair to suggest that playing with Zibanejad combined with his generally better play as of late has lead to his recent resurgence.

Conacher has been playing quite well for the last 10-15 games imo, and I'd credit that to earning the coaching staffs trust (he's been playing quite a bit better without the puck lately) more than playing with Zibanejad. he happens to be putting in points right now, so maybe there is more to it, but he's also been getting a lot more ice-time since going onto Zibanejad's line. I think regular shifts really are helping both Conacher and Zibanejad reach their potential.

Here's hoping Spezza can eventually come back fully healthy and somewhat closer to his 2011-12 form, because if he can anchor a line with Greening and say Stone, we could have good lines and roll them pretty evenly.

I don't disagree with the bolded, though I'd suggest looking at two 3 game samples is a little unfair. Phx, Bos(rel. healthy) and Pitts(on a tear, but lost of injuries) vs Wpg, Was, and Bos(no Chara or Sied) are not the same playing field.
Don't like to try to draw game comparisons because it only clouds the real change between Spezza's performance and Zibanejad's.

However Phoenix isn't that strong, actually the Jets looked better, Pitt was devastated with injuries and Ott lost 5-0 in Bos with Chara, won 4-3 in Ott without Chara and Wash was on a roll as was Ovie.

Not really as significant a difference as it might first appear.

Fact is Zibanejad is playing a game that is going to lead to more success in the NHL than Spezza has been.

Lastly I absolutely agree with the bolded, without this happening the Sens most likely will miss the playoffs.

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01-03-2014, 03:41 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Don't like to try to draw game comparisons because it only clouds the real change between Spezza's performance and Zibanejad's.

However Phoenix isn't that strong, actually the Jets looked better, Pitt was devastated with injuries and Ott lost 5-0 in Bos with Chara, won 4-3 in Ott without Chara and Wash was on a roll as was Ovie.

Not really as significant a difference as it might first appear.

Fact is Zibanejad is playing a game that is going to lead to more success in the NHL than Spezza has been.

Lastly I absolutely agree with the bolded, without this happening the Sens most likely will miss the playoffs.
I disagree with Wpg over Phx, and even with injuries Pittsburgh was on a tear and playing well. Not sure what your point is with Bos, as with both Chara and Seidenberg out with no notice, we went from being blown out to a narrow victory, and imo losing their top D pairing in one night is a pretty hard thing to make up for. Not to mention Bos' poor decision to start Rask in back to backs. Bos on the 2nd night was clearly a vulnerable team.

My overall point though wasn't really the quality of the competition in those 2 samples, though I still think it's relevant, but that 3 games is not a significant sample.

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01-03-2014, 05:44 PM
  #162
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But you're totally right, anything short of 100% potential reached is a disappointment for this board and the scapegoating ensues... Who ever compared Spezza to Yzerman? Fool.
I mentioned Yzerman recently in relation to Spezza, I hope I'm not the "fool" you are referring to. But I explicitly framed it in the context that Spezza has himself has always looked up to Yzerman.

http://www.theobserver.ca/2013/09/14...in-of-nhl-team

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"My idols have always been Steve Yzerman and Mario Lemieux," said Spezza. "Steve Yzerman was an offensive guy like myself and became a guy that won Stanley Cups and was a leader, somebody I always looked up to as a player. I see how he handles himself as a man ... he's definitely somebody I always admired."
In my case, I was saying that he hasn't developed his 2-way game the same way Yzerman had done, and at 30 hasn't quite grown into that "complete player" mold. I was never making a direct comparison or saying that Spezza is expected to become the next Stevie Y.


If people here were expecting him to actually become the next Yzerman, though, that would be incredibly foolish.

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01-03-2014, 10:12 PM
  #163
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I mentioned Yzerman recently in relation to Spezza, I hope I'm not the "fool" you are referring to. But I explicitly framed it in the context that Spezza has himself has always looked up to Yzerman.
Don't worry, that comparison was brought way before you were a member here, maybe even myself. I wasn't referring to your post, damage has been done way before that. I think expectations have always been way too high for Spezza.

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01-03-2014, 10:46 PM
  #164
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Greening is playing well defensively and I appreciate his tenacity and forecheck but he is not producing. No problem for now as he makes only 816 667$ but when his new cap hit kicks in next year (2 650 000$), we can't afford to have him not producing
He looks good with Condra and Smith. Hopefully they develop chemistry together and Maclean doesn't break them up when Neil is back.

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01-03-2014, 10:51 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by VikingKarlsson View Post
if you look at it the other way it could.

The team looks much better with Spezza not in the line up.
I am not sure if the team looks better we still have many defensive breakdowns but Andy and zibby line have been hot

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