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Del Zotto’s reps want meeting with Rangers GM to talk trade

View Poll Results: Trade Del Zotto?
Yes 130 76.47%
No 40 23.53%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-03-2014, 11:18 PM
  #76
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Last year for sure, I agree.

Both have been equally terriawful this season though.

I guess it makes sense to trade the guy who's been here longer and has shown signs of regression.
Then we would be trading every defenseman on the roster aside from McD. Staal, MDZ, Girardi, Moore and (over the last month or so) Stralman have looked significantly worse under AV than they did with Torts. When 5/6ths of your defense "regresses"--it's a problem with the system, not the players.

AV's stubborn insistence on the man to man defense (a system almost nobody else uses) is a big part of the problem in my opinion.

You don't trade a 35-40 point, 23 year old defenseman before trying to fix the (bigger) problem first. If the only way for AV's man system to work is to have guys like McD at 1-6, then we have a serious problem, because we're all out of Gomez' to trade.

Frankly, had I been in MDZ's shoes, I would have asked for a trade a long time ago. He's been shafted by AV for most of the season. I don't know if that working relationship can even be saved at this point.

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01-03-2014, 11:41 PM
  #77
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The value Sather is probably looking for in return isn't available right now and likely won't be until after the Olympic break, no need to sell low on him he's going to be an RFA, if the return is right move him if not hang on and wait it out.

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01-03-2014, 11:51 PM
  #78
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**** this whole god damn bush league organization. From top to ****ing bottom.

Drive his value to the absolute ground, THEN get desperate to trade him. What a professional move.

And bench him in favor of John Moore, who's damn near close to the epitome of useless. I don't know how anyone can ****ing justify that. I don't know how anyone can say "John Moore is part of the future" with a straight ****ing face, while insulting Del Zotto.

It's not even worth being angry anymore, just another day in Ranger Land.

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01-04-2014, 12:06 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
**** this whole god damn bush league organization. From top to ****ing bottom.

Drive his value to the absolute ground, THEN get desperate to trade him. What a professional move.

And bench him in favor of John Moore, who's damn near close to the epitome of useless. I don't know how anyone can ****ing justify that. I don't know how anyone can say "John Moore is part of the future" with a straight ****ing face, while insulting Del Zotto.

It's not even worth being angry anymore, just another day in Ranger Land.
Great post. John Moore is horrible

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01-04-2014, 12:10 AM
  #80
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Then we would be trading every defenseman on the roster aside from McD. Staal, MDZ, Girardi, Moore and (over the last month or so) Stralman have looked significantly worse under AV than they did with Torts. When 5/6ths of your defense "regresses"--it's a problem with the system, not the players.

AV's stubborn insistence on the man to man defense (a system almost nobody else uses) is a big part of the problem in my opinion.

You don't trade a 35-40 point, 23 year old defenseman before trying to fix the (bigger) problem first. If the only way for AV's man system to work is to have guys like McD at 1-6, then we have a serious problem, because we're all out of Gomez' to trade.

Frankly, had I been in MDZ's shoes, I would have asked for a trade a long time ago. He's been shafted by AV for most of the season. I don't know if that working relationship can even be saved at this point.
If DZ did ask for a trade, good. AV treats him like **** but lets John Moore and Nash play, screw ups and all. And people thought Torts was bad? I really hope we keep DZ, Torts had no problem using him the right way but AV does and its sick. If we do trade DZ,best of luck to him and i hope he goes on to be a consistent top 4 35-40 point dman who lights us up because this organization sucks.

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01-04-2014, 12:52 AM
  #81
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I want to see him stay. I just don't see who we replace him with that is an upgrade, and has his upside.

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01-04-2014, 12:58 AM
  #82
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I want to see him stay. I just don't see who we replace him with that is an upgrade, and has his upside.

I agree for the most part, but I think there is a serious question about whether or not he still wants to be here. He's been in a toxic environment all season long. Ultimately, I think he would only want to be here if AV wasn't, and I doubt Sather/Dolan cuts bait this early on a new coach. That's why I didn't vote in the poll one way or the other. I don't want to see DZ moved (I'd rather see a new coach--not just because of MDZ, but because of the struggles of the entire defense outside of McD, and because I think AV was brought in to do something--contend--that this team is going to be a few years away from doing). But by the same token, if he doesn't want to be here and AV isn't going to go anywhere, MDZ's value will just go lower and lower.

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01-04-2014, 01:51 AM
  #83
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The Rangers can't bench John Moore until his episode of " Beginnings" Airs.

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01-04-2014, 02:06 AM
  #84
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I agree for the most part, but I think there is a serious question about whether or not he still wants to be here. He's been in a toxic environment all season long. Ultimately, I think he would only want to be here if AV wasn't, and I doubt Sather/Dolan cuts bait this early on a new coach. That's why I didn't vote in the poll one way or the other. I don't want to see DZ moved (I'd rather see a new coach--not just because of MDZ, but because of the struggles of the entire defense outside of McD, and because I think AV was brought in to do something--contend--that this team is going to be a few years away from doing). But by the same token, if he doesn't want to be here and AV isn't going to go anywhere, MDZ's value will just go lower and lower.
Well said. It's a lose, lose situation. AV doesn't want Del Zotto in the lineup, at least not on the left side--that's pretty clear. Not having Del Zotto in the lineup makes it harder to trade him and reduces his value. Oh well. Every time a new coach comes in, someone gets dumped. I like Del Zotto through and am not sold on John Moore. But, the damage is done.

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01-04-2014, 02:12 AM
  #85
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I've said it before. I think he's plateaued. A change of scenery is about the only thing that might push him to become a better player than he is right now. He was a very promising rookie but he's never become the pwp qb d-man capable of taking charge of the offense. He should be a legit 1st pairing d-man--a leader on this team by now not a follower. He still has confidence issues. That is part of the problem.

To qualify him this summer the Rangers lowball offer would be $2.9 mil per. That is way too much $ for a player the coaching staff have shown so little confidence in that they continually scratch him at least when everyone is healthy. I don't know what we're going to get for him but the $ he's making now and the $ he's automatically going to get this summer help lower his value as well.
There is a contradiction there.
If a player "plateaued" as you like to say then no change of scenery would help. A change of scenery would mean that a player still has potential and will fulfill it somewhere else.

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01-04-2014, 02:13 AM
  #86
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I agree for the most part, but I think there is a serious question about whether or not he still wants to be here. He's been in a toxic environment all season long. Ultimately, I think he would only want to be here if AV wasn't, and I doubt Sather/Dolan cuts bait this early on a new coach. That's why I didn't vote in the poll one way or the other. I don't want to see DZ moved (I'd rather see a new coach--not just because of MDZ, but because of the struggles of the entire defense outside of McD, and because I think AV was brought in to do something--contend--that this team is going to be a few years away from doing). But by the same token, if he doesn't want to be here and AV isn't going to go anywhere, MDZ's value will just go lower and lower.
I think more than just DZ would like to have a different coach.

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01-04-2014, 02:31 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
The Rangers can't bench John Moore until his episode of " Beginnings" Airs.
Right after "The Garden Transformed Part 1357886544: Dolan recalls the exact spot where he took his first **** in the building"

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01-04-2014, 04:50 AM
  #88
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Package MDZ with Brassard to bring back a center who can consistently get 50-60 points per season. Depending on center's age and salary, we can throw in a second rounder and/or a prospect.

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01-04-2014, 05:09 AM
  #89
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People saying John Moore is "terrible" while defending Del Zotto are amazing to me. John Moore is half a year younger than DZ, and being a late 90 means he was drafted a year later. He's a year behind DZ in terms of his development, and while the Rangers in typical fashion ruined Del Zotto by bringing him up too early and not letting him season and learn the professional game.

Too often people on this board and all over the internet in general get too caught up on stats and what other people say. Fact of the matter is Del Zotto was drafted to be a puck-moving offensive defenseman and he doesn't do that well at all. He plays his position very poorly and he's being exposed this year. John Moore statistically this year is pretty much exactly the same as DZ and has better physical tools. Del Zotto will command a higher salary next year than Moore will. If you keep Del Zotto, he'll negotiate for a contract that Rangers fans will be furious with for years to come. If you trade him now, even if you don't get a great return at least you free yourself from a bad situation. Keeping Moore instead, who is I believe on the same level if not better than Del Zotto, gives the team more flexibility going forward. The team won't be good this year, but we can work towards the future NOW by at least getting something for a guy who won't be coming back anyway

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01-04-2014, 06:17 AM
  #90
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People saying John Moore is "terrible" while defending Del Zotto are amazing to me. John Moore is half a year younger than DZ, and being a late 90 means he was drafted a year later. He's a year behind DZ in terms of his development, and while the Rangers in typical fashion ruined Del Zotto by bringing him up too early and not letting him season and learn the professional game.

Too often people on this board and all over the internet in general get too caught up on stats and what other people say. Fact of the matter is Del Zotto was drafted to be a puck-moving offensive defenseman and he doesn't do that well at all. He plays his position very poorly and he's being exposed this year. John Moore statistically this year is pretty much exactly the same as DZ and has better physical tools. Del Zotto will command a higher salary next year than Moore will. If you keep Del Zotto, he'll negotiate for a contract that Rangers fans will be furious with for years to come. If you trade him now, even if you don't get a great return at least you free yourself from a bad situation. Keeping Moore instead, who is I believe on the same level if not better than Del Zotto, gives the team more flexibility going forward. The team won't be good this year, but we can work towards the future NOW by at least getting something for a guy who won't be coming back anyway

By the same token, people that bash Del Zotto while praising John Moore baffle me. They (yourself included in this very post), cling to what they hope the player might become. Yes, Del Zotto will be more expensive than John Moore. Guess what? Sidney Crosby is more expensive than Artem Anisimov too. You don't keep an inferior player just because he's cheaper.

That brings us to why it should be clear that John Moore is the inferior player. His career high is 7 points. 7. Yes, he's even statistically this year with MDZ. Guess which one of those two players has played about 10 more games? Guess which one has been playing the whole season on his comfortable side? Guess which one of those two players has received nothing but praise and near guaranteed minutes from his coach? Moore has enjoyed all of those benefits. He's been no better than a player who has been (unfairly) scratched repeatedly, has been forced to play his off side for about two thirds of the games he HAS played, and has been repeatedly ripped in the media by his coach, even after games that he didn't play in.

You talk about Del Zotto being "exposed." If that's the case, then Girardi, Staal, Stralman, and Moore have been "exposed" right along with him, because McDonagh is literally the only defenseman on this roster who can say that he is having a good season. Hell, he's the only one on the roster who can say that he hasn't regressed significantly from last year (an argument can be made for Strals, but he's had a rough month).

I don't think that Moore "sucks." I DO think that he has been worse than Del Zotto. I DO think that it is inexplicable that Moore, the completely unproven player, gets so much more leash than Del Zotto, who has proven himself as a top 4 defenseman in three of the last four seasons. I think Moore is being hurt by this idiotic man to man system as much as the rest of the defense. Ultimately, I want Moore to stick around. I think in a good system, he can be a phenomenal 3rd pair guy.

What baffles me is why Del Zotto is singled out on a defense that has, as a group, been a train wreck all season. I honestly wonder whether or not AV puts the negative attention on Del Zotto in order to deflect it from where it belongs--himself. His system sucks for these players. He took a top 10 defense and sent it into the garbage. He was brought in to take this team over the hump, and he's driving it towards a re-build. By keeping people talking about Del Zotto, it stops them from talking about how precarious AV's own place with this team should be.

This is a top 4 that has been elite for years. The problem isn't in one (of the 5) defenseman who is (are) having lousy season(s).

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01-04-2014, 07:06 AM
  #91
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I like him, but trade him. No point sitting him every game. I'm sure he can be a solid top 4 on an other team.

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01-04-2014, 07:20 AM
  #92
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I agree with everyone who is saying they bungled the chance of MDZ returning something good. Like Deniro said, nothing in this life is worse than wasted talent. LOL

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01-04-2014, 10:06 AM
  #93
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Great post. John Moore is horrible
So is Delzotto...

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01-04-2014, 10:08 AM
  #94
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People saying John Moore is "terrible" while defending Del Zotto are amazing to me. John Moore is half a year younger than DZ, and being a late 90 means he was drafted a year later. He's a year behind DZ in terms of his development, and while the Rangers in typical fashion ruined Del Zotto by bringing him up too early and not letting him season and learn the professional game.

Too often people on this board and all over the internet in general get too caught up on stats and what other people say. Fact of the matter is Del Zotto was drafted to be a puck-moving offensive defenseman and he doesn't do that well at all. He plays his position very poorly and he's being exposed this year. John Moore statistically this year is pretty much exactly the same as DZ and has better physical tools. Del Zotto will command a higher salary next year than Moore will. If you keep Del Zotto, he'll negotiate for a contract that Rangers fans will be furious with for years to come. If you trade him now, even if you don't get a great return at least you free yourself from a bad situation. Keeping Moore instead, who is I believe on the same level if not better than Del Zotto, gives the team more flexibility going forward. The team won't be good this year, but we can work towards the future NOW by at least getting something for a guy who won't be coming back anyway
$2.55 mil vs $.840mil

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01-04-2014, 10:15 AM
  #95
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By the same token, people that bash Del Zotto while praising John Moore baffle me. They (yourself included in this very post), cling to what they hope the player might become. Yes, Del Zotto will be more expensive than John Moore. Guess what? Sidney Crosby is more expensive than Artem Anisimov too. You don't keep an inferior player just because he's cheaper.

That brings us to why it should be clear that John Moore is the inferior player. His career high is 7 points. 7. Yes, he's even statistically this year with MDZ. Guess which one of those two players has played about 10 more games? Guess which one has been playing the whole season on his comfortable side? Guess which one of those two players has received nothing but praise and near guaranteed minutes from his coach? Moore has enjoyed all of those benefits. He's been no better than a player who has been (unfairly) scratched repeatedly, has been forced to play his off side for about two thirds of the games he HAS played, and has been repeatedly ripped in the media by his coach, even after games that he didn't play in.

You talk about Del Zotto being "exposed." If that's the case, then Girardi, Staal, Stralman, and Moore have been "exposed" right along with him, because McDonagh is literally the only defenseman on this roster who can say that he is having a good season. Hell, he's the only one on the roster who can say that he hasn't regressed significantly from last year (an argument can be made for Strals, but he's had a rough month).

I don't think that Moore "sucks." I DO think that he has been worse than Del Zotto. I DO think that it is inexplicable that Moore, the completely unproven player, gets so much more leash than Del Zotto, who has proven himself as a top 4 defenseman in three of the last four seasons. I think Moore is being hurt by this idiotic man to man system as much as the rest of the defense. Ultimately, I want Moore to stick around. I think in a good system, he can be a phenomenal 3rd pair guy.

What baffles me is why Del Zotto is singled out on a defense that has, as a group, been a train wreck all season. I honestly wonder whether or not AV puts the negative attention on Del Zotto in order to deflect it from where it belongs--himself. His system sucks for these players. He took a top 10 defense and sent it into the garbage. He was brought in to take this team over the hump, and he's driving it towards a re-build. By keeping people talking about Del Zotto, it stops them from talking about how precarious AV's own place with this team should be.

This is a top 4 that has been elite for years. The problem isn't in one (of the 5) defenseman who is (are) having lousy season(s).
While all of this may be true, the fact remains it has been made clear DZ is not part of the "plan" (lol) going forward and is expected to be traded. There is no justification in the world now that can change that.

All we can hope for at this point is if they are going to sell on all of these formerly effective players who are not cutting it in this system (flawed or not) is that they can bring back pieces that are going to work, or just bring back assets in general and move on from this system even if it means changing coaches, again.

The only thing that is clear is that nothing is working, and whether or not it is a new system with flawed players, or vice versa, something has to give.

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01-04-2014, 10:25 AM
  #96
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So is Delzotto...
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Originally Posted by Mio41 View Post
$2.55 mil vs $.840mil


MDZ has actually accomplished certain feats and earned that salary. Moore hasn't done jack ****.

The only thing Moore has on Del Zotto is his skating ability.

Most of us have been watching hockey long enough to know that skating doesn't mean anything if the player doesn't understand certain fundamentals.

Ever notice why Del Zotto plays much better on the Left than the Right? I mean, is it ****ing rocket science?

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01-04-2014, 10:31 AM
  #97
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There is a contradiction there.
If a player "plateaued" as you like to say then no change of scenery would help. A change of scenery would mean that a player still has potential and will fulfill it somewhere else.
Not really. He plateaued two years ago. He's got worse since and particularly this year. I think other coaching staffs could get more out of him than this coaching staff of ours. Get him back to where he was anyway. Not going to find out that until it actually happens but I expect his game will improve after he moves. Here--he's going to spin his wheels.

If we're going to talk about DZ objectively. Do I think he's capable of putting up 35-40 point seasons? Yes. With us--with AV? No. Upside?--no more upside than we've seen in the past. He is more or less what he is. An average defender at best who can add some offense from your back line--just don't expect too much. Don't expect him to be a legit pwp qb. His offensive creativity has not really improved since his rookie year. His shot is suspect in terms of 1. accuracy 2. velocity. Mentally I think he's a bit on the fragile side. Not a leader in any respect. That is something that hurts him as Staal at least was a huge leader for the Rangers until all the injuries and McDonagh has pretty much become the leader of the D and IMO is captain material.

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01-04-2014, 10:51 AM
  #98
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$2.55 mil vs $.840mil
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
MDZ has actually accomplished certain feats and earned that salary. Moore hasn't done jack ****.

The only thing Moore has on Del Zotto is his skating ability.

Most of us have been watching hockey long enough to know that skating doesn't mean anything if the player doesn't understand certain fundamentals.

Ever notice why Del Zotto plays much better on the Left than the Right? I mean, is it ****ing rocket science?
MDZ has not earned a raise but will get one this summer if the team owning his rights qualifies him. MDZ is moving into territory on his contract where the owners of said contract will have less ability to cost control his earnings at least until he hits UFA status. His $ should go up as his offensive production goes up for the Rangers to get real value out of his contract. Offense is his bread and butter argument for more $. The way AV etal. use him there's no chance that there's going to be much production at all. Playing him on the right side IMO is just stupid. 7 points this year tells you anyway his confidence is in the toilet. Are we going to turn around and give him $2.9 mil + this summer going at the rate he's going and with a coach with 4 more years on his contract who obviously doesn't want him? That would be IMO just ****ing senseless. John Moore IMO has nothing to do with this argument. He's not playing all that better than DZ but the expectations--his role on this team are different enough. The $'s he's making is manageable for what we're getting out of him.

Hypothetically--the Rangers attempt to sign DZ this summer for one year at his qualifying offer--$2.9?--coming off a 15 point season (quite possibly non-playoff season) of numerous scratches. Same coaching staff next year. I mean WTF? Does DZ sign that? Does he take the team to arbitration? and ask for $3.5 or $4 mil per? If he does we'll be going through the same nonsense of signing him the year after. Does he demand a trade because he doesn't want to play for this team anymore? If he wins a one year arbitration award for $3.5 mil.--what's his next contract going to look like?

It should be fairly clear by now that 1 of 2 things are going to happen. 1. DZ gets moved. 2. Sather fires AV and staff. No. 2 is extremely unlikely. Maybe there's a third option--couples therapy. Somehow I don't think that will work either.

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01-04-2014, 11:20 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
MDZ has not earned a raise but will get one this summer if the team owning his rights qualifies him. MDZ is moving into territory on his contract where the owners of said contract will have less ability to cost control his earnings at least until he hits UFA status. His $ should go up as his offensive production goes up for the Rangers to get real value out of his contract. Offense is his bread and butter argument for more $. The way AV etal. use him there's no chance that there's going to be much production at all. Playing him on the right side IMO is just stupid. 7 points this year tells you anyway his confidence is in the toilet. Are we going to turn around and give him $2.9 mil + this summer going at the rate he's going and with a coach with 4 more years on his contract who obviously doesn't want him? That would be IMO just ****ing senseless. John Moore IMO has nothing to do with this argument. He's not playing all that better than DZ but the expectations--his role on this team are different enough. The $'s he's making is manageable for what we're getting out of him.

Hypothetically--the Rangers attempt to sign DZ this summer for one year at his qualifying offer--$2.9?--coming off a 15 point season (quite possibly non-playoff season) of numerous scratches. Same coaching staff next year. I mean WTF? Does DZ sign that? Does he take the team to arbitration? and ask for $3.5 or $4 mil per? If he does we'll be going through the same nonsense of signing him the year after. Does he demand a trade because he doesn't want to play for this team anymore? If he wins a one year arbitration award for $3.5 mil.--what's his next contract going to look like?

It should be fairly clear by now that 1 of 2 things are going to happen. 1. DZ gets moved. 2. Sather fires AV and staff. No. 2 is extremely unlikely. Maybe there's a third option--couples therapy. Somehow I don't think that will work either.
Not much I can disagree with here. I don't think MDZ gets much of a raise though. The mentality that MDZ is moveable because he sucks and John Moore is superior is a joke. That's what I'm trying to highlight.

If you don't like MDZ. Or feel like MDZ shouldn't be part of our long-term planning. Whatever. I can respect that.

Assuming Moore is a more capable dmen though?

There are some real foolish suspects in this thread that make me wonder what the hell they're watching with some of the nonsense they're posting though. That's what the nature of my post was.

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01-04-2014, 11:35 AM
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eco's bones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Not much I can disagree with here. I don't think MDZ gets much of a raise though. The mentality that MDZ is moveable because he sucks and John Moore is superior is a joke. That's what I'm trying to highlight.

If you don't like MDZ. Or feel like MDZ shouldn't be part of our long-term planning. Whatever. I can respect that.

Assuming Moore is a more capable dmen though?

There are some real foolish suspects in this thread that make me wonder what the hell they're watching with some of the nonsense they're posting though. That's what the nature of my post was.
DZ looked to have a lot of potential after his first season. He's not realized it. Torts arguably had him playing against his strengths with the system he put in place. DZ IMO has always been a disaster waiting to happen on the right side. My ***** with AV concerning DZ isn't about the scratches--I don't think DZ has played well this season at all--but continuing to put him in situations to fail and especially IMO when he has better options--Moore for instance would be a better option on the right side. This is far as I'm going to go with my backseat coaching on this issue. I just don't get it. DZ though over the course of his time with the Rangers has only improved marginally as a defenseman. He strikes me as have a fragile psyche and to be honest I don't care for players who are fragile upstairs. They're not winners IMO. It's possible that he'll get over that some day but I'm done waiting. He's got to the point where his earnings are going to be more of an issue as well. All this hurts his trade value as well IMO. Teams looking to deal for him need to believe he's going to come in the right frame of mind and be worth the next contract he signs. It's almost like Zherdev redux.

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