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Real Cloutier HHOF?

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Old
01-07-2007, 10:07 PM
  #26
jumptheshark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by statistics View Post
Why not? He was better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely.

WHA:

Regular season: 369 games, 566 points
Playoffs: 48 games, 63 points

Bill Hunter Trophy Winner (Leading scorer of the regular season) 1977 and 1979.

Avco World Trophy (WHA champion) 1977

NHL:

Regular season 317 games, 344 points
Playoffs: 25 games, 12 points

Real Cloutier's stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00001037

WHA is very underrated league.
WHA was like a bad JR league where a good player racked up lots of points

Comparing him to Neely is a joke

I actual saw him play games in the WHA and NHL(yes I am that old) and no--he is not in the same catagory as Neely

btw

A book on hockey stats a few years ago came out and said overall for WHA stats devide all skater stats by 2.2 to get the NHL equivalent

also

When he got taken off the top line and moved to the second--his stats in the nhl started to go down

Why did he retire at 30?

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Old
01-07-2007, 10:10 PM
  #27
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There were much better WHA/NHL split guys than Cloutier who aren't in the Hall. J-C Tremblay should be in the Hall. Cloutier, really not.

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Old
01-07-2007, 10:22 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graveyardshift View Post
WHA was like a bad JR league where a good player racked up lots of points

Comparing him to Neely is a joke

I actual saw him play games in the WHA and NHL(yes I am that old) and no--he is not in the same catagory as Neely

btw

A book on hockey stats a few years ago came out and said overall for WHA stats devide all skater stats by 2.2 to get the NHL equivalent

also

When he got taken off the top line and moved to the second--his stats in the nhl started to go down

Why did he retire at 30?
Of course Neely is better than Cloutier but the NHL was not much better than the WHA. (read sasKanesh's post)Based on your profile, you were a little kid when the WHA disbanded so you are no expert. I was there.

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01-08-2007, 04:34 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I was P.O.'ed when Duff was announced for the HHOF. And I'm still not thrilled about it. But if I had to come up with a modern comparison, I'd say he was the Joe Nieuwendyk of his time. He was a good/really good regular season producer. But when the playoffs arrived, he was one of the guys everybody wanted on their team. A money player who played a critical role on six Cup champions. And in the end, as anyone who knows anything about sports will tell you, you build your legacy, your place in the game, on the playoffs. The greats find a way to take their game to another level in the playoffs.
Wow ... to me you're giving Duff way too much credit.

This is a guy who had a couple OK (50-point) offensive seasons early in his career on terrible Leaf teams, and then averaged about 35 points/season from age 23 onward, and was a third-line type player for the majority of his career. Yeah, the eras are different, but Nieuwendyk was clearly a front-line star-calibre offensive player in this league for many years.

Duff is almost a carbon copy of Bob Bourne, career-wise. Quality two-way forwards who won a boatload of championships as support players and had a knack for raising their games in the playoffs. Almost identical career numbers when you adjust for era. Bourne's resume is to me actually a bit more impressive, and he isn't even close to a HHOF guy.

And Bob Nystrom is another guy off that same Islander team with a very similar career resume to Duff. It still blows my mind how this guy was inducted ... you can't find a legitimately comparable guy who has even received a sniff at the HHOF.

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01-08-2007, 04:54 AM
  #30
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is this the HHOF version of Rory Fitzpatrick?

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01-08-2007, 04:59 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by LannysStach View Post
is this the HHOF version of Rory Fitzpatrick?
More or less. Although, I think if Fitzpatrick makes it and Vishnovsky doesn't, that's still more realistic than Duff in the Hall while Mikhailov, Vachon and Shero are on the outside looking in.

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01-08-2007, 05:36 AM
  #32
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kay wait. Rogie Vachon is not in the HHoF??!!

oops!

and it's located in Canada, right?

somebody needs to send them the Canada Cup '76 DVD set.

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Old
01-08-2007, 05:45 AM
  #33
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Give me Mark Howe and Jean-Claude Tremblay before a hell lot of players not in it. For your question, I don't see Cloutier great enough to make it in the HHOF, even though I recognize he was a great player at the time he played

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01-08-2007, 09:14 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Wow ... to me you're giving Duff way too much credit.

This is a guy who had a couple OK (50-point) offensive seasons early in his career on terrible Leaf teams, and then averaged about 35 points/season from age 23 onward, and was a third-line type player for the majority of his career. Yeah, the eras are different, but Nieuwendyk was clearly a front-line star-calibre offensive player in this league for many years.

Duff is almost a carbon copy of Bob Bourne, career-wise. Quality two-way forwards who won a boatload of championships as support players and had a knack for raising their games in the playoffs. Almost identical career numbers when you adjust for era. Bourne's resume is to me actually a bit more impressive, and he isn't even close to a HHOF guy.

And Bob Nystrom is another guy off that same Islander team with a very similar career resume to Duff. It still blows my mind how this guy was inducted ... you can't find a legitimately comparable guy who has even received a sniff at the HHOF.
Hence my argument for Esa Tikkanen. Though I think you may be under-rating Duff. Esa was a great Defensive forward and was the ultimate pest and was a top playoff performer. Was integral to multiple Cup teams and probably the best player on 2 weaker Edmonton teams that made it to the 3rd round. Plus he was on the first line of Edmonton with Gretz and Kurri not on a 3rd line.

Of course I personally witnessed Tikkanen's greatness while Bourne and Nystrom were a bit before my time and Duff far before. I think as time goes on and the guys on the Hall of Fame committee were actually teammates/on ice opponents as coach or player of some of these more recent players they may get in like Duff did. It is generational. I witnessed Tikkanen and how amazing he was in the playoffs for Edmonton every season. Many did not witness Duff and all the things he did to help the Habs and Leafs win games. The intangibles you can't see on a stat sheet and really can't comprehend without actually watching the players play games is the reason, I think, that Gilles, Duff and even Neely are in the HHOF.

A player like Nieuwendyk might not get voted in anytime soon. He might, but it really depends who is on the Hall of Fame committee each year. He could be like Duff and have to wait a very long time to get in.

But Nieuwendyk, Tikkanen and many others are guys that maybe will get in a long time from now when Messier or Gretzky or Hull are on the Hall of Fame selection committee. I think that having several key Islander people on the HHOF selection committee is the reason why Gilles got in.

As time goes on I care less and less about perhaps less prestigous players getting in the HHOF. Federko, Gilles, Neely were great players. If they get in the Hall then that is fine, even if quite a few question their selections. Anyone that watched the Islanders win their 4 Cups is not going to argue much with Gilles selection I think.

The biggest people that argue against Duff and Gilles are people looking back at the stats and saying their stats aren't good enough. But stats are so over-rated in evaluating hockey greatness. Some day people will look back and sat "Why the heck is this Bob Gainey guy in the HHOF? he got 40 points when the best players were getting 100 a season?". Of course those that saw Gainey play won't argue his merits but the stat people will.

I like stats a lot but Hockey isn't baseball and they tell far less of the story in Hockey then they do in baseball.

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Old
01-08-2007, 09:23 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Give me Mark Howe and Jean-Claude Tremblay before a hell lot of players not in it. For your question, I don't see Cloutier great enough to make it in the HHOF, even though I recognize he was a great player at the time he played
As I have said many, many times before Mark Howe should be a HHOFer. No doubt at all and it isn't a hard selection either. But the WHA is still working against him. I firmly believe as the HHOF committee changes it's composition and more and more people that are not negative about the WHA are on the committee he gets in.

In the mid-80's Howe was one of 3 of the best D-Men in the NHL. And the other 2 are Bourque and Coffey and it wasn't always Howe as the third best of those 3. Add on the 6 years as one of the top 5 players or so in the WHA as a forward/D-Man Howe is clearly a HHOFer. He was as good as MacInnis, Stevens, Pronger, Niedermeyer, Leetch. Chelios, Bourque and Coffey, Lidstrom, Potvin, Robinson I rate over him but players of his comparable effectiveness are no-brain HHOFers.

The 80's Flyers never won a Cup but they were a great dominate team that came up against the Edmonton Juggernaut. The most important player on those Flyer teams wasn't the revolving (great) Goalies or Kerr or Propp it was Howe.

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Old
01-19-2007, 10:27 PM
  #36
jumptheshark
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Originally Posted by murray View Post
Of course Neely is better than Cloutier but the NHL was not much better than the WHA. (read sasKanesh's post)Based on your profile, you were a little kid when the WHA disbanded so you are no expert. I was there.
and I saw Real play in the NHL and a few games in the world league

he was not that good of player

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