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Old
01-05-2014, 01:26 PM
  #226
OnlyTruth
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Time for more debunking for the Lundqvist apologists:

Talbot has started 12 games. In those 12 games he's 9-3-0 with 2 shutouts, allowed one goal three times, and two goals five times.

10 of 12 starts he allowed two goals or less.

10.

And he's 9-3. The Rangers have scored two goals or less in six games he started. He's 3-3 in those games, so there goes the theory that the team cant win games when they arent scoring 3 or 4 goals a game.

Lundqvist has given up three goals or more in 9 of his last 10 starts. In those starts he has given up at least two goals in the 1st period six times, and in two of those games he gave up the first two goals of the 2nd period in a 0-0 game.

Why is it so hard for people to grasp? Being down 2-0 10 mins into a game changes the entire complexion of the game. In fact, in three of Henrik's December losses, the team came back from two-goal deficits to either take the lead or tie, only to have the team lose the game.

There werent any message boards back in 1990, but there were certainly fan boys. Vanbiesbrouck had an entire legion of supporters even though he was friggin brutal since his Vezina but nobody every challenged him. Froese, Scott....they all sucked.

Richter came along and took the team and the league by surprise. Nobody wanted to admit it, but Richter was clearly competent to split the workload with Beezer and over the next three seasons he did.

Talbot is a very sound goalie. Is he a flash in the pan? Who the hell cares. He's playing better than the "better" guy. I dont care how much money the other guy makes or what he did in his previous years.

Sports is a results-based industry. You think AV cares about Lundqvist's contract? He wants wins because wins keeps him employed.

Dominik Hasek was a third string backup to Eddie Belfour and Jimmy Waite in Chicago, then backed up Grant Fuhr in Buffalo.

And youre nuts if you dont think the players feel more confident playing with Talbot than they do with Lundqvist. I guess they like not trailing 2-0 in the 1st every friggin game.
Very good post! Pretty much puts it in perspective by using facts and logic. Of course Hank apologists skip this post because they don't want to alter their fairy tale world.

At this point I think that Talbot is just doing his job. I don't consider him Hasek or any other goalie of that type at the given moment. I would say that Talbot is a bit above average now, and that just tells you how bad Hank is playing.

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01-05-2014, 03:54 PM
  #227
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Based on this 13 game sample size, Talbot is > Quick, Rinne, Lundqvist, Price, etc.

How many of you wouldn't trade Talbot for Quick or Rinne RIGHT NOW? Get over the 13 game sample.

And in regards to scoring goals, Lundqvist has been in net for all five times the Rangers have been shutout. Meaning, he entered five games with 0% chance to post a win. If the Rangers even scored 2 or 3 goals in some of those shutouts, he could have a .500 record.

Can't wait until Lundqvist wins a Silver or Gold Medal at the Olympics. He could have his second gold around his neck, and his haters would still push Talbot over him.

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01-05-2014, 04:09 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Based on this 13 game sample size, Talbot is > Quick, Rinne, Lundqvist, Price, etc.

How many of you wouldn't trade Talbot for Quick or Rinne RIGHT NOW? Get over the 13 game sample.

And in regards to scoring goals, Lundqvist has been in net for all five times the Rangers have been shutout. Meaning, he entered five games with 0% chance to post a win. If the Rangers even scored 2 or 3 goals in some of those shutouts, he could have a .500 record.

Can't wait until Lundqvist wins a Silver or Gold Medal at the Olympics. He could have his second gold around his neck, and his haters would still push Talbot over him.
I wouldn't, because of economics. Quick makes $5,800,000, and Rinne makes $7,000,000(Cap hits, which are all that the NYR really care about.). Talbot makes $562,500. That's an average savings of $5,837,500, which likely would have a much greater impact if spent on our forward or defense group instead of a goalie. The difference in production that you get for that money is likely much more significant in another area of the team where it is needed.

If I'm Sather, I give Talbot a 3 or 4 year extension on July 1, as soon as you can, ideally at around 1.5 million or so. Either he shows he can be a legit starter and it's a great contract, meaning that the return in a likely trade would be significant(A .923 SV% goalie with 3 years at 1.5 million is going to bring a much nicer return than the same goalie at 7 million), or he regresses back to a solid backup, in which case it's a fair contract to a slight over payment by a couple of hundred thousand dollars, but not a huge deal. If he has another good/excellent/elite year next year, some team will throw big bucks at him in UFA to be a starter.

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01-05-2014, 04:23 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by goalsequalvictory View Post
I wouldn't, because of economics. Quick makes $5,800,000, and Rinne makes $7,000,000(Cap hits, which are all that the NYR really care about.). Talbot makes $562,500. That's an average savings of $5,837,500, which likely would have a much greater impact if spent on our forward or defense group instead of a goalie. The difference in production that you get for that money is likely much more significant in another area of the team where it is needed.

If I'm Sather, I give Talbot a 3 or 4 year extension on July 1, as soon as you can, ideally at around 1.5 million or so. Either he shows he can be a legit starter and it's a great contract, meaning that the return in a likely trade would be significant(A .923 SV% goalie with 3 years at 1.5 million is going to bring a much nicer return than the same goalie at 7 million), or he regresses back to a solid backup, in which case it's a fair contract to a slight over payment by a couple of hundred thousand dollars, but not a huge deal. If he has another good/excellent/elite year next year, some team will throw big bucks at him in UFA to be a starter.
If I was Talbot, I wouldn't go for this crap. I sign 1.5m for 2 years. And after showing good play, go for 5m and 6 years.

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01-05-2014, 04:34 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Based on this 13 game sample size, Talbot is > Quick, Rinne, Lundqvist, Price, etc.

How many of you wouldn't trade Talbot for Quick or Rinne RIGHT NOW? Get over the 13 game sample.

And in regards to scoring goals, Lundqvist has been in net for all five times the Rangers have been shutout. Meaning, he entered five games with 0% chance to post a win. If the Rangers even scored 2 or 3 goals in some of those shutouts, he could have a .500 record.

Can't wait until Lundqvist wins a Silver or Gold Medal at the Olympics. He could have his second gold around his neck, and his haters would still push Talbot over him.
Who cares about sample size. Like someone said before, sports is a results based industry. What have you done for me lately? Sure Hank has the track record, but Talbot is playing better right now. Plain and simple. Everyone is always saying the team plays better with Talbot in net. Maybe it has something to do with Talbot? Playing goalie is more than just stopping pucks. He plays the puck well, which gives our incompetent defensemen more time to move the puck. More time to move the puck leads to less time in our zone/better breakouts. Better breakouts lead to scoring chances. He always controls rebounds well. Controlling rebounds and getting stoppages helps us get tired guys off the ice. Prevents us from having 5 tired guys in the defensive zone chasing players.

I have no doubt Hank will snap out of it eventually and be the better goalie again, but in the tight race were in for a playoff spot, Cam has given us a better chance to win on most nights. It's a confidence thing with Hank, but I also think the team plays more confidently with Cam in net.

I hope Hank wins a medal. Ultimate confidence boost for him. Go sweden.

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01-05-2014, 04:56 PM
  #231
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They outskated the Leafs by a decisive margin, ultimately sending 50 shots on net while out-attempting their foes 85-53, and 34-13 in the first period. They drove to the net all night long while playing with a chip on their collective shoulder.

“It starts with execution in our own zone,” Stepan said. “We were able to come out cleanly a couple of times early on, and when you do that, it allows you to manage the puck a lot better.”

It started, actually, with a noteworthy left shoulder save by Cam Talbot on James Van Riemsdyk’s screaming left wing wrist shot on a speed rush just 20 seconds into the match. The Blueshirts seized control on the next shift when Kreider, a force throughout, drove to the net with his linemates crashing behind him.

“It’s good to be tested early but that’s the kind of chance you want to stay away from,” said Talbot, who hails from Caledonia, Ontario, about 90 minutes from Toronto, and allowed that it was special for him to win in front of a collection of friends and family watching in the stands.

“Making that save gives you a boost. “I guess it’s a good thing if you make the save.”
http://nypost.com/2014/01/04/rangers...e-maple-leafs/

What an idea. Stop the puck and give your team the chance to get the lead.

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01-05-2014, 05:00 PM
  #232
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He is 31, so it is not age. The change in the Rangers’ system has required an adjustment, but it is not as if there were a force field around him when John Tortorella was behind the bench; indeed, the Blueshirts were often under siege, playing circle-the-wagons, able to survive only because of the goaltender’s brilliance.
http://nypost.com/2013/12/23/rangers...-to-find-game/

I needed a quick reminder. For a second I was almost convinced by this board that the Rangers under Torts were carbon copies of the Dynasty Habs of both Beliveau and Robinson.

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01-05-2014, 09:17 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Based on this 13 game sample size, Talbot is > Quick, Rinne, Lundqvist, Price, etc.

How many of you wouldn't trade Talbot for Quick or Rinne RIGHT NOW? Get over the 13 game sample.

And in regards to scoring goals, Lundqvist has been in net for all five times the Rangers have been shutout. Meaning, he entered five games with 0% chance to post a win. If the Rangers even scored 2 or 3 goals in some of those shutouts, he could have a .500 record.

Can't wait until Lundqvist wins a Silver or Gold Medal at the Olympics. He could have his second gold around his neck, and his haters would still push Talbot over him.
I think you're missing the point that people here are trying to make. The difference in salary between Lundqvist and Talbot, could add, what to the NYR roster? A lot? So, is the performance level that far off between them for the NYR to pass on adding that much talent to their skaters? Could he be a flash-in-the-pan? Sure. Could he get injured tomorrow? Yep. Could Lundqvist? Yes.

I'd like to see the NYR ride Talbot a bit right now and see where he can take them. If he can maintain, sure send Lundqvist packing. Why not?

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01-06-2014, 12:00 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
I think you're missing the point that people here are trying to make. The difference in salary between Lundqvist and Talbot, could add, what to the NYR roster? A lot? So, is the performance level that far off between them for the NYR to pass on adding that much talent to their skaters? Could he be a flash-in-the-pan? Sure. Could he get injured tomorrow? Yep. Could Lundqvist? Yes.

I'd like to see the NYR ride Talbot a bit right now and see where he can take them. If he can maintain, sure send Lundqvist packing. Why not?
I'm sending Lunqvist packing at the first opportunity.

Sather made a huge mistake with Hank's contract. He isn't playing well right now, and didn't deserve that contract until he was able to show that the struggles this season are a fluke.

I'm just going to put this question out there to everyone. What if this is what Hank's going to be like for the foreseeable future?

Maybe Talbot isn't the guy, but Hank might not be the guy either. There have been plenty of athletes who's production took a nose dive at Hank's age.

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01-06-2014, 12:38 AM
  #235
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He's not going to get traded--not even before the extension kicks in. The Rangers are stuck with him (which is fine my me--I think he'll regain his form). Might as well get used to it.

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01-06-2014, 01:53 AM
  #236
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I hope Hank starts tonight and Cam starts against Chicago.

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01-06-2014, 09:36 AM
  #237
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He's not going to get traded--not even before the extension kicks in. The Rangers are stuck with him (which is fine my me--I think he'll regain his form). Might as well get used to it.
Why not? Even if he does regain form, its an awful deal.

Maybe pay off for a year or two of the contract, and then trade him. If you take off a year or two, its not that bad of a contract. That contract would be tradable, and I think the Rangers could get a good return for Hank.

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01-06-2014, 10:02 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by rangersfan9 View Post
Why not? Even if he does regain form, its an awful deal.

Maybe pay off for a year or two of the contract, and then trade him. If you take off a year or two, its not that bad of a contract. That contract would be tradable, and I think the Rangers could get a good return for Hank.
Rangers will not trade him and cannot in the foreseeable future. It's an awful contract from a Cap/Team perspective but it's not from a business/marketing perspective. Hank in the last few years have brought in a lot of money to MSG and they market him as the face of the Rangers. They even created the crown 30 logo just for him. They probably sold more #30 jerseys than anyone else on the team.

Talbot cannot be the official starter. You just can't have that given what Hank has done for so long and how much he is making. What Slats should've done was waited. But i think Dolan and the marketing people pushed it.

Unless Talbot wins the Cup for us, Hank will always be the #1 here for the foreseeable future. I just hope it doesn't become the Luongo of the East.

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01-06-2014, 12:31 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by rangersfan9 View Post
Why not? Even if he does regain form, its an awful deal.

Maybe pay off for a year or two of the contract, and then trade him. If you take off a year or two, its not that bad of a contract. That contract would be tradable, and I think the Rangers could get a good return for Hank.
You mean even if he regains form as an annual Vezina finalist and Hart finalist it would be a bad contract?

Right now, it looks brutal. If he was playing like he has the last eight years, it's a fair contract. He's viewed as the best/most consistent goaltender of the decade for a reason.

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01-06-2014, 12:35 PM
  #240
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Rangers will not trade him and cannot in the foreseeable future. It's an awful contract from a Cap/Team perspective but it's not from a business/marketing perspective. Hank in the last few years have brought in a lot of money to MSG and they market him as the face of the Rangers. They even created the crown 30 logo just for him. They probably sold more #30 jerseys than anyone else on the team.

Talbot cannot be the official starter. You just can't have that given what Hank has done for so long and how much he is making. What Slats should've done was waited. But i think Dolan and the marketing people pushed it.

Unless Talbot wins the Cup for us, Hank will always be the #1 here for the foreseeable future. I just hope it doesn't become the Luongo of the East.
Such a losers mentality. The Rangers should be striving to win the Cup, not keep their sentimental figures to please the fans. The fans should care more about the team winning than rooting for their favorite player.

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01-06-2014, 12:37 PM
  #241
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You mean even if he regains form as an annual Vezina finalist and Hart finalist it would be a bad contract?

Right now, it looks brutal. If he was playing like he has the last eight years, it's a fair contract. He's viewed as the best/most consistent goaltender of the decade for a reason.
Its going to be really bad in about five years. Back ups don't make eight million dollars, and I can't see Hank playing at a starting level five years from now.

Even if he regains his previous form, it won't be for more than another two or three years. Players his age start to decline.

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01-06-2014, 12:59 PM
  #242
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Best case scenario, (and I know he's having a sophomore slump) would be a Conacher for Bishop type deal in the offseason.

thoughts?

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01-06-2014, 01:14 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
http://nypost.com/2013/12/23/rangers...-to-find-game/

I needed a quick reminder. For a second I was almost convinced by this board that the Rangers under Torts were carbon copies of the Dynasty Habs of both Beliveau and Robinson.
Well, thats just you not comprehending the discussion.

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01-06-2014, 01:32 PM
  #244
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Such a losers mentality. The Rangers should be striving to win the Cup, not keep their sentimental figures to please the fans. The fans should care more about the team winning than rooting for their favorite player.
I agree. I'm just saying that Slats and MSG won't do it because of Hank's popularity. The Rangers need more than just good goaltending to win a Cup and that's why I'm not a fan of Hank's extension even if he's vezina every year. As ranger fans, we want the cup not individual trophies.

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01-06-2014, 02:23 PM
  #245
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so has AV named the starter tonight?

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01-06-2014, 02:29 PM
  #246
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Its going to be really bad in about five years. Back ups don't make eight million dollars, and I can't see Hank playing at a starting level five years from now.

Even if he regains his previous form, it won't be for more than another two or three years. Players his age start to decline.
That's not necessarily true. Brodeur had some of his best years around the age of 35, 36, etc. That said, Brodeur does play a style more conducive to a long term career.

Kiprusoff had one of the best seasons of his career at 35.

Vokoun has played well his entire career, even into the ages of 36 or 37.

Roy had a few incredible years with the Avalanche at the end of his career.

This isn't the rule, but it doesn't mean everyone just falls apart when they hit their mid-30's.

Lundqvist's contract could look terrible when he is 37 or 38. Who says he will even be playing until then? Not every play plays until their contract expires either. The whole point of circumventing the cap in the past was that GM's signed players to contracts long term knowing they would never play up until that age. Maybe Lundqvist decides to call it quits at 36 or 37? Kipper just did.

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01-06-2014, 07:43 PM
  #247
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Put in Talbot!

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01-06-2014, 07:49 PM
  #248
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Hank needs to stop giving up so many goals. I know that the goals so far weren't that bad, but he is being paid too much money to only expect him to make the easy saves. At his price, he should be standing on his head every game.

Put in Talbot and stay with him for a few weeks.

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01-06-2014, 09:16 PM
  #249
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Lundqvist, when he's on, is one of the best goalies in the world, if not THE best. He's now under contract for eight more years, so he's not going anywhere. He needs to play through his struggles. He's not going to get over them sitting on the bench.

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01-06-2014, 09:27 PM
  #250
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There seems to be a group of people who have something against Talbot and want him to fail, so that the other guy looks better.
That's disgusting. You cheer for the front of the jersey, not the back.

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