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Del Zotto’s reps want meeting with Rangers GM to talk trade

View Poll Results: Trade Del Zotto?
Yes 130 76.47%
No 40 23.53%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-06-2014, 02:43 AM
  #201
Tawnos
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By the way, I'm not so sure that this story doesn't play out the same way with Tortorella as coach. Season starts, healthy Staal, McDonagh accelerated, coach in love with Moore, Girardi and Stralman, DZ 3rd pair out of position, confidence shot, downward spiral, DZ on block.

What in those facts has anything to do with AV vs Tortorella? Let's not forget that Torts was in love with Moore too.

It's all too easy to pin this on the coaching change, but the reality is that with the clean slate, DZ didn't draw a very good picture. Circumstance put him in a tough spot, not the coach. The player didn't help himself. That's the way it goes sometimes.

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01-06-2014, 02:43 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
AV completely destroyed ballard here in vancouver.....a player that had put up three very good seasons. You guys are very astute to see the problem with AV so quickly. It took vancouvef fans a lot longer. He will lay waste to assets no matter what the gm thinks...no matter what they cost to acquire or the implications of his decisions for the gm...luongo, ballard, hodgson

You will see you share of tanner glass types. I am so happy he's not in vancouver.
So he destroyed Ballard. Okay, I assume he destroyed Bieksa, Burrows, Kesler, the Sedins, Edler, Higgins, Raymond, and Ehrhoff too right? Uh huh, yeah, awful. Damn you AV!

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01-06-2014, 02:44 AM
  #203
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Del Zotto "pooped himself" in the NJ series in 2012? I guess we forgot the part in which his grandmother passed away at the start of that series? I am pretty sure he had to take a red eye or two to go back and forth for the services. Classic case of forgetting these players are human; real people. He had been performing well up until the NJ series and the death of his grandmother.

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01-06-2014, 02:46 AM
  #204
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Del Zotto "pooped himself" in the NJ series in 2012? I guess we forgot the part in which his grandmother passed away at the start of that series? I am pretty sure he had to take a red eye or two to go back and forth for the services. Classic case of forgetting these players are human; real people. He had been performing well up until the NJ series and the death of his grandmother.
People conveniently forget that he had a great playoffs until the Devils series.

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01-06-2014, 02:51 AM
  #205
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People conveniently forget that he had a great playoffs until the Devils series.
He closed out that Washington series with that insurance goal in game 7

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01-06-2014, 09:08 AM
  #206
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When the flyers couldn't win a game and their fans wanted to hang the whole team he was their first choice.
Well the flyers had Bryz and now Mason. If MDZ played for the flyers, then the flyers would be in even bigger trouble.

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01-06-2014, 09:31 AM
  #207
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There you go again distorting facts.

1 - DZ has been a top 4 on this team. He has averaged top 4 minutes last 3 seasons (Except this one where he is averaging top 5 minutes). Not only he deserved being top 4, but many nights he was the best Ranger D man on the ice.
2 - When Staal went down with his eye injury, Torts split up the Girardi-McDonagh pair and gave DZ top pairing minutes with Girardi. This is well publicized and basic googling skills can remind you if you forgot. Go back and look from about mid march to mid april of last season. So, you are wrong when you state that he has never been a top pair for the Rangers.

We also know this from the most common D pair from last season.

Defenseman -- Defenseman -- Frequency
DAN GIRARDI - RYAN MCDONAGH -- 23.74%
JOHN MOORE -- STEVE EMINGER --- 20.02%
DEL ZOTTO --- ANTON STRALMAN -- 18.63%
DEL ZOTTO --- DAN GIRARDI ------- 15.86%
STRALMAN ---- RYAN MCDONAGH -- 13.48%
DAN GIRARDI -- JOHN MOORE ------ 2.13%
RYAN MCDONAGH - STEVE EMINGER - 1.68%

Maybe this is not enough, how about we go ask the coach himself?



http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ran...kreider-as-ny-



http://snyrangersblog.com/2013-14/20...-lead-the-way/

By the way, I am not saying that he was the best Dman all the time during that stretch, but some of the time. For instance the Girardi - McD was reunited on April 11th because DZ struggled the game before



http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ran...-ny-rangers-to



What's wrong with a 23 year old averaging 35-40 points a season? How many of those do the Rangers have?


This one takes the cake, so the PP improved because McDonagh took DZs spot?
Having a new PP coach had nothing to do with it?

If you want to argue that DZ has not been consistently good during his tenure, I'd agree with you but you went a lot further than that without any facts to back you up.
DZ might as well be traded. But the way he has been railroaded by AV hurts the org. He has driven his value to the ground and you and some others seem to enjoy it.
I'd expect you to want what's best for the Rangers being a fan, but you are more interested in peddling non truths for whatever reason.
Top pair is 1st pair--not top 4. Jesus. Maybe it's the way you set up your argument. DZ moves into the top 4 when Staal goes down--well so?--someone has to. Has he played well as a 2nd pairing left side d-man in the past? Yes. When Staal came back what happened--DZ back to the bottom pair + the lion's share of the pwp time. Has our pwp sucked eggs the last few years until this one? Was McD getting any pwp time when Torts was the coach. Were DZ's lasers from the point when the team had an extra man often finding the back of the net? or were they being blocked?--going wide or being stopped by the goalie? He wasn't the entire problem with the pwp for sure but who is better on the pwp DZ or McDonagh?

37 points rookie year--moved up marginally to 41 points in the Rangers best season in a long time in 11-12. From that he signed his latest contract. Last year--not quite as good. This year he has a coaching staff that prefers other options and he's been marginalized. They don't like him enough--you don't care. His play has regressed--his edge over the rest of the defense corps--offensive creativity from the blueline--has disappeared. He's up for another contract and an automatic pay raise just to qualify him that would put him at least in the $3 mil per range. You don't want to get it--I don't give a ****. He hasn't shown he can take the next step and yet people talk about he's only 23--24 next year is coming fast--and he has upside but if this guy can't get the offense up into the 50's as a 24 year old-a 25 year old-a 26 year old then really where is the improvement from when he was 19 years old? There's nothing I've seen that leads me to believe his numbers are going to improve or that he's going to become an overall better player than he is already and he's due for at least one major pay raise off of the $2.55 mil per he's making now before he finally becomes a UFA. Managing your assets like it or not also involves managing your cap.

For **** sake people fall in love with their players.

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01-06-2014, 10:34 AM
  #208
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The problem is we have little choice now. This environment has become toxic for DZ. When his agents are asking to meet with our management about getting him moved, it's pretty clear that the player no longer wants to be in this situation. The only thing left is to hope we can still squeeze good value out of him and all call Glen (actually that should really probably be Alain) and leave 'told ya so' voicemails in a few years when DZ is doing well elsewhere.
Why is it so toxic for him? He's no longer gets the most PP time (good move by AV). Is that the definition of toxic? He's been scratched a few times - we have a lot of 3rd pair defense to try out.

MDZ and his agents need to focus on hockey and stop worrying about toxicity.

The one real beef he has is playing on the wrong side. If that's what they are complaining about then OK. One hopes (for the good of the team) that experiment is over.

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01-06-2014, 10:49 AM
  #209
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By the way, I'm not so sure that this story doesn't play out the same way with Tortorella as coach. Season starts, healthy Staal, McDonagh accelerated, coach in love with Moore, Girardi and Stralman, DZ 3rd pair out of position, confidence shot, downward spiral, DZ on block.

What in those facts has anything to do with AV vs Tortorella? Let's not forget that Torts was in love with Moore too.

It's all too easy to pin this on the coaching change, but the reality is that with the clean slate, DZ didn't draw a very good picture. Circumstance put him in a tough spot, not the coach. The player didn't help himself. That's the way it goes sometimes.
Not sure if this was done intentionally or not, but you do realize that none of this is accurate, right? McDonagh has never--NEVER--had anything to do with how much or how little Del Zotto plays. McD has always been the higher tier player because he's always been the more talented player. If anything, I think Torts would have put both McD and MDZ on the PP. Healthy Staal and Del Zotto have co-existed on Torts rosters for many months at a time. Torts still found ways to get MDZ minutes. And Moore? Yeah, Torts was so in love with Moore that he played him about a dozen minutes a game, and those minutes were so sheltered that he thought he was playing cold-war era hockey.

The biggest difference from last year, one that has everything to do with AV, that you forgot to mention is this idiotic insistence on man to man defense. Only a couple of teams use this, and you need to have D that are tailored for it. We only have ONE such defenseman--McDonagh. Literally, every other D on our roster has looked significantly worse from last season to this season. Yes, it's "all too easy to pin this on the coach." When 5 out of your 6 (formerly successful) d-men suddenly start ******** the bed in unison, RIGHT after a coaching/system change, that's the obvious reason.

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01-06-2014, 10:51 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by mandiblesofdoom View Post
Why is it so toxic for him? He's no longer gets the most PP time (good move by AV). Is that the definition of toxic? He's been scratched a few times - we have a lot of 3rd pair defense to try out.

MDZ and his agents need to focus on hockey and stop worrying about toxicity.

The one real beef he has is playing on the wrong side. If that's what they are complaining about then OK. One hopes (for the good of the team) that experiment is over.
Realistically he's head and shoulders better than than the guys he's being scratched for. He's being asked to play the wrong side and then when it's harder than playing his natural side, scratched in favor of someone he's better than. It's toxic, however, because the bridge has kind of been burned. It's unlikely he'll ever regain his confidence or develop further if he stays here. It's the classic "needs a change of scenery". If that term doesn't apply to this player now than when is it applicable? Don't get me wrong, I haven't been DZ's biggest fan for years now, but it's progressed to a stage where there's little to no likelihood he isn't move. I don't think the relationship can be salvaged. He's an RFA; he could refuse to sign and force us to deal his rights/let him rot, at which point his value will truly be destroyed. That's not how you manage your assets.

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01-06-2014, 11:09 AM
  #211
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Were DZ's lasers from the point when the team had an extra man often finding the back of the net? or were they being blocked?--going wide or being stopped by the goalie? He wasn't the entire problem with the pwp for sure but who is better on the pwp DZ or McDonagh?
Two things--first, McD has had plenty of shots wide and blocked shots as well, and he ALSO doesn't exactly have a laser from the point, so I'm not sure what you are saying there. Second--I know your last sentence there was supposed to be some sort of rhetorical, "obvious answer" question, but it shouldn't be. There is a legit question about which player is better on the PP. Production wise, BOTH players tend to produce far more at EV than they do on the PP. This year, the year of McDonagh the rock star PP QB, he has produced...wait for it...exactly the same PP production as MDZ did in a similar number of games last year. You know, the year that some people think Del Zotto was "not quite as good."

Quote:
37 points rookie year--moved up marginally to 41 points in the Rangers best season in a long time in 11-12. From that he signed his latest contract. Last year--not quite as good. This year he has a coaching staff that prefers other options and he's been marginalized. They don't like him enough--you don't care.
That's one way of looking at it. Another is that he has been averaging 35-40 points for his young career, and (one season of McD production notwithstanding--I want to see it repeated before I'm comfortable with him as a regular option in the offense) that is something the Rangers haven't had and had been looking for for a decade. Oh yeah, it's also not an isolated fact. MDZ is struggling. You want to know why I don't care that the coaching staff prefers other options? BECAUSE EVERY D-MAN NOT NAMED McDonagh is struggling just as much. Staal? Shell of his former self. Girardi? Scoring goals on his own team. Moore? Doesn't even look like an NHL player. Stralman? Started out well, but has been a mess for over a month now.

When a coach comes in, changes a system completely, and turns a top 5 defense--with NO player turnover--into a lousy one, you can bet your ass I'm going to question the coach instead of ONE of those regressed players. MDZ is AV's scapegoat.


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You don't want to get it--I don't give a ****. He hasn't shown he can take the next step and yet people talk about he's only 23--24 next year is coming fast--and he has upside but if this guy can't get the offense up into the 50's as a 24 year old-a 25 year old-a 26 year old then really where is the improvement from when he was 19 years old? There's nothing I've seen that leads me to believe his numbers are going to improve or that he's going to become an overall better player than he is already

For **** sake people fall in love with their players.
Stop being so ****ing arrogant. You've been shown the history over and over again. YOU are the one who doesn't want to get it. 23 year old defensemen almost never have offense into the 50s, particularly those drafted out of the top 10 who play on poor offensive teams. You go on and on about how he hasn't improved--He's a defenseman. His defense is MILES better than it was his rookie year.

Finally, stop being so condescending while you work on that whole arrogance thing. It's not about being "in love with players"--it's about wanting what's best for this team to win. I've been one of the loudest supporters for MDZ. Take a look at the poll. I haven't voted. While I think the problems MDZ (and the rest of the D) has had can be directly attributed to AV's idiotic man to man system, I also wonder whether the relationship between player and team can be reconciled. If MDZ doesn't want to be here, and his reps have made that clear, then he needs to be moved ASAP. If MDZ would be able to bring back pieces that would be a clear upgrade (IE- Not bottom 6 players, over the hill players or the other crap that's been proposed), then I would be thrilled.

But please, continue ranting about how some of us are "in love" with a player and mocking said player right out of town. Many of the user names on both sides are exactly the same as they were during the Dubinsky debates, and that worked so wonderfully for the team when that went down, didn't it?


Last edited by smoneil: 01-06-2014 at 11:24 AM. Reason: correcting verb tense
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01-06-2014, 11:17 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by mandiblesofdoom View Post
Why is it so toxic for him? He's no longer gets the most PP time (good move by AV). Is that the definition of toxic? He's been scratched a few times - we have a lot of 3rd pair defense to try out.

MDZ and his agents need to focus on hockey and stop worrying about toxicity.

The one real beef he has is playing on the wrong side. If that's what they are complaining about then OK. One hopes (for the good of the team) that experiment is over.
First, he's been a top-4 defenseman on a top 5 defense here for the last two years. Suddenly, he's told that he's in a competition for the #6 spot with three guys (Conor Allen, John Moore and Falk) who, if you combine their career accomplishments, don't get you half of an average MDZ season. It would be like benching Callahan because you want to see what Fasth, Akim Aliu and Michael Kantor have to offer).

Second, it's become toxic because the benchings A- haven't always followed bad games (his biggest string of riding pine came after two of his better games on the ice) and B- have coincided with AV running his mouth about the player. This board rioted when Torts called out Hagelin for not being good on the power play. What Torts said pales in comparison to the way AV has thrown his own player under the bus.

It's become toxic because AV has publicly used Del Zotto as his personal scapegoat to deflect from what should be obvious--his stupid defensive system does not work with these players. AV was paid a lot of money to take a 2nd round team to the next level. He's taken them right out of the playoff picture. He took a top 5 defense and turned them into a joke. The man needs a scapegoat--I don't blame him for trying to save his job, but for the people on here to buy it hook line and sinker? AV is the massive failure here--not Del Zotto.

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01-06-2014, 11:18 AM
  #213
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Why does he need to boost his offense into the 50s to be a worthwhile player? Why can't he be a 40+ point dman and just learn to be more consistent and tighten up his defense. Consistency and improving away from the puck are certainly the most common things 23 year old dmen struggle with. How many other 40pt dmen are on this team anyway?

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01-06-2014, 11:21 AM
  #214
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By which I don't mean we should keep him but where did you become so high and mighty with this "he's done nothing to show me he's got. 50+ potential. He's a bum" attitude, like you're used to some abundance of 50, or even 40, point dmen on the team.

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01-06-2014, 12:47 PM
  #215
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He closed out that Washington series with that insurance goal in game 7
Ahh, I remember it well...watching at the hotel bar in the Bahamas with some other Ranger fans I had met. Good times...

I miss that season so much...

I'm hesitant to trade him. I think he has some really good hockey in him, and with us.

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01-06-2014, 12:50 PM
  #216
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He closed out that Washington series with that insurance goal in game 7
That was last year. The before it was the game 7 winner against the caps.

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01-06-2014, 12:57 PM
  #217
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The problem is we have little choice now. This environment has become toxic for DZ. When his agents are asking to meet with our management about getting him moved, it's pretty clear that the player no longer wants to be in this situation. The only thing left is to hope we can still squeeze good value out of him and all call Glen (actually that should really probably be Alain) and leave 'told ya so' voicemails in a few years when DZ is doing well elsewhere.
See if they move him and don't get value, he does well elsewhere, team continues to be mediocre or worse, the noose tightens and pitchfork count goes up a lot sooner than certain contracts expire.

In other words, any trade involving DZ where DZ happens to be the best player in the deal will backfire. Especially if Stralman and/or Girardi leave or hit pay dirt.

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01-06-2014, 12:59 PM
  #218
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I'll tell you this, after Saturday, we should want NOTHING to do with Gardiner or Franson. They were awful....

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01-06-2014, 01:01 PM
  #219
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See if they move him and don't get value, he does well elsewhere, team continues to be mediocre or worse, the noose tightens and pitchfork count goes up a lot sooner than certain contracts expire.

In other words, any trade involving DZ where DZ happens to be the best player in the deal will backfire. Especially if Stralman and/or Girardi leave or hit pay dirt.

I'm less worried about Girardi and Stralman than I am Staal in any MDZ trade. MDZ doesn't really offer any coverage on the right side, so having him doesn't help us if G or Strals leave. If Staal doesn't regain form, however, we are so screwed without Del Zotto. Staal has been putrid for most of the season, and if he doesn't recover his form, who do we have behind McD on the left side? John "wait, that was my guy?" Moore? Brady Skjei is still a few years away. If MDZ is traded and Staal's injuries have indeed turned him into...this, then we are screwed on the left side.

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01-06-2014, 01:03 PM
  #220
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I'll tell you this, after Saturday, we should want NOTHING to do with Gardiner or Franson. They were awful....
Gardiner has been overrated ever since his 5 points in 6 playoff games run a couple years back. The Toronto media machine hyped the hell out of him at that time. He's nothing special. He's never BEEN anything special. His best NHL season is well below MDZ's average season. Which means we'll probably trade for him, because God knows the Rangers management (and half their fans) prefer a player with hype to one with actual ability.

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01-06-2014, 01:45 PM
  #221
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Gardiner has been overrated ever since his 5 points in 6 playoff games run a couple years back. The Toronto media machine hyped the hell out of him at that time. He's nothing special. He's never BEEN anything special. His best NHL season is well below MDZ's average season. Which means we'll probably trade for him, because God knows the Rangers management (and half their fans) prefer a player with hype to one with actual ability.
Yeah.. I don't know if you've watched MDZ for the past year and a half but it hasn't been looking so good..

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01-06-2014, 02:06 PM
  #222
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Two things--first, McD has had plenty of shots wide and blocked shots as well, and he ALSO doesn't exactly have a laser from the point, so I'm not sure what you are saying there. Second--I know your last sentence there was supposed to be some sort of rhetorical, "obvious answer" question, but it shouldn't be. There is a legit question about which player is better on the PP. Production wise, BOTH players tend to produce far more at EV than they do on the PP. This year, the year of McDonagh the rock star PP QB, he has produced...wait for it...exactly the same PP production as MDZ did in a similar number of games last year. You know, the year that some people think Del Zotto was "not quite as good."



That's one way of looking at it. Another is that he has been averaging 35-40 points for his young career, and (one season of McD production notwithstanding--I want to see it repeated before I'm comfortable with him as a regular option in the offense) that is something the Rangers haven't had and had been looking for for a decade. Oh yeah, it's also not an isolated fact. MDZ is struggling. You want to know why I don't care that the coaching staff prefers other options? BECAUSE EVERY D-MAN NOT NAMED McDonagh is struggling just as much. Staal? Shell of his former self. Girardi? Scoring goals on his own team. Moore? Doesn't even look like an NHL player. Stralman? Started out well, but has been a mess for over a month now.

When a coach comes in, changes a system completely, and turns a top 5 defense--with NO player turnover--into a lousy one, you can bet your ass I'm going to question the coach instead of ONE of those regressed players. MDZ is AV's scapegoat.




Stop being so ****ing arrogant. You've been shown the history over and over again. YOU are the one who doesn't want to get it. 23 year old defensemen almost never have offense into the 50s, particularly those drafted out of the top 10 who play on poor offensive teams. You go on and on about how he hasn't improved--He's a defenseman. His defense is MILES better than it was his rookie year.

Finally, stop being so condescending while you work on that whole arrogance thing. It's not about being "in love with players"--it's about wanting what's best for this team to win. I've been one of the loudest supporters for MDZ. Take a look at the poll. I haven't voted. While I think the problems MDZ (and the rest of the D) has had can be directly attributed to AV's idiotic man to man system, I also wonder whether the relationship between player and team can be reconciled. If MDZ doesn't want to be here, and his reps have made that clear, then he needs to be moved ASAP. If MDZ would be able to bring back pieces that would be a clear upgrade (IE- Not bottom 6 players, over the hill players or the other crap that's been proposed), then I would be thrilled.

But please, continue ranting about how some of us are "in love" with a player and mocking said player right out of town. Many of the user names on both sides are exactly the same as they were during the Dubinsky debates, and that worked so wonderfully for the team when that went down, didn't it?
I can tell you this--I don't want to give Del Zotto a $2.9 mil qualifying offer this summer and possibly have to pad that because of negotiations and/or arbitration. He hasn't earned the raise--his play along with the current coaching staff's lack of confidence in him makes that almost automatically a bad contract and his so-called value isn't going to be any better next year than it is this year if things continue as they are currently. This idea that AV needs to play him is nonsense. A coach plays what he thinks is his best lineup whether you or I or anyone else think otherwise.

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01-06-2014, 02:48 PM
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MDZ for Rundblad

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01-06-2014, 02:49 PM
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I can tell you this--I don't want to give Del Zotto a $2.9 mil qualifying offer this summer and possibly have to pad that because of negotiations and/or arbitration.
I think his RFA status is my #1 reason for trading him. Totally agree, we can't live with that QO. you are forgetting the mandatory 10% bump that usually goes with QOs

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01-06-2014, 02:50 PM
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MDZ for Rundblad
ha, you're dreaming! I'd go for that.

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