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respect Souray!

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Old
01-22-2007, 12:15 AM
  #1
Maxpac
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respect Souray!

I was reading an overrated defensmen thread on the national hockey league thread and people keep putting Souray as the most overrated defensmen. Why? Not only is he the best scoring defensmen in the east but he's getting to be as good as anyone on defense, never makes brain cramp passes like Brisebois used too, he hits, defends his teammates, nice hands, leader on the team. What does he have to do next to earn respect? We're lucky in Montreal to have 2 n.1 defensmen but people just have to complain because of it. Cause Markov didn't get beat 1 on 1 by Spezza or Briere Souray's overrated...

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01-22-2007, 12:24 AM
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The league, under the cap, is a question of dollars. Souray will hit the jackpot in 2007-2007, and that's what they are talking about. They are not sure he will he able to continue producing as much as he will produce this year and end up being the next McCabe or the next Gonchar.

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01-22-2007, 12:29 AM
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I'm with you that one. He doesn't derserve all these critics. Every d-man made mistakes because it doesn't exit the perfect player. If he has those kind of numbers, it's because he's doing something good A lots of folks say that he has a wonder year; true. But, I think if he could score 15 goals each year and getting 45-55 pts for the next couple years or on a regular basis, he will earn the respect that he deserves.

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01-22-2007, 12:45 AM
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souray is a defensive liability, and there's no reason to argue it, cuz that's just the way it is...

he scores, he's a decent passer, but he makes many mistakes in the defensive zone..

i like him tho.....rocket of a shot

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01-22-2007, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimy1221 View Post
souray is a defensive liability, and there's no reason to argue it, cuz that's just the way it is...

he scores, he's a decent passer, but he makes many mistakes in the defensive zone..

i like him tho.....rocket of a shot
The Souray of this year doesnt make many errors in his zone, id say after Markov hes been our best defensive D this year. Hes actually great one on one this year.

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01-22-2007, 02:10 AM
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Souray's lapses in his own end have been exaggerated by a few "undressings" that have become highlight reel regulars. Well, guess what? Every defenseman gets undressed periodically. Kopitar undressed Niedermayer earlier this season. Kopitar didn't score, but it was just as bad as the Spezza on Souray play.

Souray's been logging huge icetime, killing penalties, on the ice in the last few minutes of a game.. he also contributes offensively both on the PP and 5 on 5. I don't know what else you want from the guy. Not everyone is Scott Niedermayer, but I'll settle for a pre-2003-without-the-holding-penalties Adrian Aucoin type.

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01-22-2007, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jcpenny View Post
The Souray of this year doesnt make many errors in his zone, id say after Markov hes been our best defensive D this year. Hes actually great one on one this year.
I tend to agree with this... I don't think Souray has been that bad in his own zone this year.... way better than in past years.

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01-22-2007, 03:44 AM
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Nobody can deny Souray's offensive abilities. He's proven that for a while now.

The average fan sees souray in the hilite reels getting undressed by spezza and bergeron and thats where the overrated talk comes from.

I'm not saying that souray is a chris pronger defensively but he's definitly not a Janne Niinimaa either.

I dont buy the plus/minus argument either because when a team has as many guys in the minus as montreal does, I would say its more of a team issue than an individual issue. And when you're defensive partners are guys like rivet and niinimaa who are having their struggles this season, you know its not entirely souray's fault.

He does posess a good outlet pass and he is very good in puck battles.

The question I have is... where would this team be WITHOUT souray this season? And that's where its clear that his postives DEFINITLEY outweigh his negatives.

I'd say the talk of souray being overrated is overrated in itself.

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01-22-2007, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Souray's lapses in his own end have been exaggerated by a few "undressings" that have become highlight reel regulars. Well, guess what? Every defenseman gets undressed periodically. Kopitar undressed Niedermayer earlier this season. Kopitar didn't score, but it was just as bad as the Spezza on Souray play.

Souray's been logging huge icetime, killing penalties, on the ice in the last few minutes of a game.. he also contributes offensively both on the PP and 5 on 5. I don't know what else you want from the guy. Not everyone is Scott Niedermayer, but I'll settle for a pre-2003-without-the-holding-penalties Adrian Aucoin type.
ya he's definately improved

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01-22-2007, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by shimy1221 View Post
souray is a defensive liability, and there's no reason to argue it, cuz that's just the way it is...

he scores, he's a decent passer, but he makes many mistakes in the defensive zone..
No you're wrong. This year, Souray has improved his play by leaps and bounds in the defensive zone. Not only he's not a liability at all but he's pretty good right now. He also plays a lot on the PK, and he's always on the ice when we're down 2 men. Didn't you know he was always on the ice in key moments when we need to have good defensive players on the ice? I guess you know more than Carbo...

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01-22-2007, 08:19 AM
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well maybe Souray's greatest assets isn't defense, but except Markov and Komisarek, they're all worse then him on D.

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01-22-2007, 08:25 AM
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Bunka Gurndeep
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Since Souray has been away from Rivet, his defensive lapses have not occured . But yet they are recently back together

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01-22-2007, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Guillaume the great! View Post
I was reading an overrated defensmen thread on the national hockey league thread and people keep putting Souray as the most overrated defensmen. Why? Not only is he the best scoring defensmen in the east but he's getting to be as good as anyone on defense, never makes brain cramp passes like Brisebois used too, he hits, defends his teammates, nice hands, leader on the team. What does he have to do next to earn respect? We're lucky in Montreal to have 2 n.1 defensmen but people just have to complain because of it. Cause Markov didn't get beat 1 on 1 by Spezza or Briere Souray's overrated...
Because defensively I think they're saying he's overrated. Know what's funny? You get what your paying for when you sign sheldon souray. A defensemen who is weak defensively but strong offensively. Someone who can make your powerplay twice as deadly. If anything it's just because people are saying he's not that great at defense so he's "overrated". Thing is, Souray isn't overrated, he's rated exactly what he is, an offensively strong D man with average D skills.

If he was overrated that would mean the media would be saying he's great defensively, which they are not clearly.

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01-22-2007, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
Nobody can deny Souray's offensive abilities. He's proven that for a while now.

The average fan sees souray in the hilite reels getting undressed by spezza and bergeron and thats where the overrated talk comes from.

I'm not saying that souray is a chris pronger defensively but he's definitly not a Janne Niinimaa either.

I dont buy the plus/minus argument either because when a team has as many guys in the minus as montreal does, I would say its more of a team issue than an individual issue. And when you're defensive partners are guys like rivet and niinimaa who are having their struggles this season, you know its not entirely souray's fault.

He does posess a good outlet pass and he is very good in puck battles.

The question I have is... where would this team be WITHOUT souray this season? And that's where its clear that his postives DEFINITLEY outweigh his negatives.

I'd say the talk of souray being overrated is overrated in itself.
If PP goals counted as a + Souray would have an extra +16 don't forget.

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01-22-2007, 10:11 AM
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He is overrated, there's no doubt about that IMO.

He's tremendous in one area of his game, and that's his shot on the PP...all the other facets of his game are average (although he does bring intangibles which aren't measured in stats - leadership, intimidation, solidarity, etc).

The NHL has become a special teams league almost, and in that respect, Souray is a hot commodity, but truly, his overall games is that of a #3 to # 4 dman, which isn't bad mind you, but not worth the salary he will likely command on the open market - I still think if the Habs sign Markov first, they have a shot at signing Souray-

Personally, I love Sheldon Souray, and not only because of his shot, but because he's a great leader IMO, his game has come a long way in the NHL and i love the way he has a presence on the ice...you can tell when Souray's on the ice, no one ***ks with Sheldon!

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01-22-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
He is overrated, there's no doubt about that IMO.

He's tremendous in one area of his game, and that's his shot on the PP...all the other facets of his game are average (although he does bring intangibles which aren't measured in stats - leadership, intimidation, solidarity, etc).

The NHL has become a special teams league almost, and in that respect, Souray is a hot commodity, but truly, his overall games is that of a #3 to # 4 dman, which isn't bad mind you, but not worth the salary he will likely command on the open market - I still think if the Habs sign Markov first, they have a shot at signing Souray-

Personally, I love Sheldon Souray, and not only because of his shot, but because he's a great leader IMO, his game has come a long way in the NHL and i love the way he has a presence on the ice...you can tell when Souray's on the ice, no one ***ks with Sheldon!
As previosuly stated, he's a 6.4 hitting, powerplay and pk specialist( since this year), great deker, great passer.... he's ALOT more then a #4 defensmen, and yes even at 5 on 5. What was Al Mccinis then if he was known for his shot too?

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01-22-2007, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Guillaume the great! View Post
As previosuly stated, he's a 6.4 hitting, powerplay and pk specialist( since this year), great deker, great passer.... he's ALOT more then a #4 defensmen, and yes even at 5 on 5. What was Al Mccinis then if he was known for his shot too?
I said Souray is a # 3 or 4 dman...are you implying he's more of a #1 or # 2?

I think Souray's got all the physical tools, but he lacks the awareness to be a top pairing defensman, he's a bit of a brute defensively as he uses his strength and not positionning to neutralize opponents, he doesn't think the game well enough defensively IMO.

Even offensively i've noticed that when you take away his shot, he's unsure of what to do...i'm not sure how you think he's a great passer, most of his assists come off rebounds, but I wouldn't say he's a great passer.

Again, i'm not trying to downgrade what Souray can do...but let's call a spade a spade

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01-22-2007, 10:51 AM
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well maybe Souray's greatest assets isn't defense, but except Markov and Komisarek, they're all worse then him on D.
Souray is better than Komisarek defensively. Komi is all about grit, but lately his work in the defensive zone is below-average.

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01-22-2007, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I said Souray is a # 3 or 4 dman...are you implying he's more of a #1 or # 2?

I think Souray's got all the physical tools, but he lacks the awareness to be a top pairing defensman, he's a bit of a brute defensively as he uses his strength and not positionning to neutralize opponents, he doesn't think the game well enough defensively IMO.

Even offensively i've noticed that when you take away his shot, he's unsure of what to do...i'm not sure how you think he's a great passer, most of his assists come off rebounds, but I wouldn't say he's a great passer.

Again, i'm not trying to downgrade what Souray can do...but let's call a spade a spade
To start an attack i think Souray is on par with Markov or close when it comes to finding the open guy and nailing a real fast pass to him. For one timers i think we can both agree he's probably the best player we have. For someone witch the oppostion's pk plan is to have someone on his back for a hole shift i think he's really good to get himslef open. There's a reason why most his assits come from rebounds, his slapshot is as deadly as Sakic's wrister and he'd be dumb not to use it when he has a shot.


Shimy1221, what exactly this year still makes you think he's alibility in the defensive zone? when we're playin 3 on 5, he's mostly the D we use, rarely to never gets beaten 1 on1 nowandays, even if he uses his physique instead of his stick, so what, he stops him. That's the job he has to do every way possible

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01-22-2007, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I said Souray is a # 3 or 4 dman...are you implying he's more of a #1 or # 2?

I think Souray's got all the physical tools, but he lacks the awareness to be a top pairing defensman, he's a bit of a brute defensively as he uses his strength and not positionning to neutralize opponents, he doesn't think the game well enough defensively IMO.

Even offensively i've noticed that when you take away his shot, he's unsure of what to do...i'm not sure how you think he's a great passer, most of his assists come off rebounds, but I wouldn't say he's a great passer.

Again, i'm not trying to downgrade what Souray can do...but let's call a spade a spade
If you don't consider Souray a no1 or 2 d-man, you got to name at least 60 other defencemen who are better, overall (defence AND offence), than Souray...

Btw, Komisarek has struggle a lot since december and nobody seems to criticize him, while Souray gets bashed all the time...but Komi has one great advantage over Souray : Markov (even Rivet looks alright with the russian)

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01-22-2007, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Guillaume the great! View Post
To start an attack i think Souray is on par with Markov or close when it comes to finding the open guy and nailing a real fast pass to him.
Wow! You gotta be kidding, right! I like Sheldon's overall play this year, but no way he's as good a passer than Markov, not even close. It takes a mili-second for Markov to find the open man while Souray takes forever (not only Souray, but 99% of all d-men)

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01-22-2007, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Guillaume the great! View Post
To start an attack i think Souray is on par with Markov or close when it comes to finding the open guy and nailing a real fast pass to him. For one timers i think we can both agree he's probably the best player we have. For someone witch the oppostion's pk plan is to have someone on his back for a hole shift i think he's really good to get himslef open. There's a reason why most his assits come from rebounds, his slapshot is as deadly as Sakic's wrister and he'd be dumb not to use it when he has a shot.


Shimy1221, what exactly this year still makes you think he's alibility in the defensive zone? when we're playin 3 on 5, he's mostly the D we use, rarely to never gets beaten 1 on1 nowandays, even if he uses his physique instead of his stick, so what, he stops him. That's the job he has to do every way possible
Ouch Maybe I need to pay more attention during games, I don't agree with that, but i'll focus on it more next couple of games...IMO, no one is close to Markov when it comes to finding the open man, after him i'd agree that it's probably Souray, although i swear sometimes his passes are as hard as his shots.

I also give alot of credit to Souray for being able to get open to unleash that deadly one timer, but when teams do find a way to neutralize his shot, I find he doesn't look for other options and keeps trying to get his shot off, which isn't entirely bad, but he's got to show the opposition that if they cover his shot, he can find the open man and I don't think he's proven that on a regular basis.

Don't take my criticism of Souray the wrong way, I'd rather have him on my team than against, but that doesn't mean I think he's indespensable.

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01-22-2007, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
If you don't consider Souray a no1 or 2 d-man, you got to name at least 60 other defencemen who are better, overall (defence AND offence), than Souray...
Btw, Komisarek has struggle a lot since december and nobody seems to criticize him, while Souray gets bashed all the time...but Komi has one great advantage over Souray : Markov (even Rivet looks alright with the russian)
Why? There's only a handful of dmen I truly consider to be # 1 dmen.

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01-22-2007, 11:24 AM
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Why? There's only a handful of dmen I truly consider to be # 1 dmen.
30 teams = 30 no1 d-men
30 teams = 60 no1 and 2 d-men
30 teams = 90 no1, 2, 3 d-men
etc.

If you ment elite d-men or all-star d-men, it's another story, but when we consider no 1 or 2 or 3 d-men, don't forget there's 30 teams in the nhl.

I guess you were talking more about elite or all-star?

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01-22-2007, 11:27 AM
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Why? There's only a handful of dmen I truly consider to be # 1 dmen.
Then you should re-evaluate your definition of #1 defenseman.

This is something that truly irks me. By popular definition, there are only about 6 #1 defensemen in the entire NHL. There are also only about 20 #2 defensemen. That still leaves 4 teams without a #1 OR a #2 defenseman! If we're going to use terms like #1 or #2 to insinuate terms like "elite" and "all-star calibre" then we should drop the insinuation and just use them. I agree that there are only about 6 elite defensemen, but there are 30 #1 defensemen (though not every team has one).

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