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01-22-2007, 06:42 AM
  #1
RangerBoy
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Brooks-RANGERS NEED SHOT OF YOUTH

Larry Brooks

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I want Renney this week to make personnel evaluations based on the best interests of the Rangers. And in conjunction with Renney's visits to Wolf Pack practices, I want Sather to use waivers to cut the safety net of veterans the head coach has used as a security blanket right out from under him.

I want to see two or three fresh faces - Brandon Dubinsky, and maybe Ryan Callahan, maybe Lauri Korpikoski, maybe Dane Byers, maybe Nigel Dawes - when the Rangers reconvene Thursday.

I want evidence that management understands that the Same Old Same Old won't cut it
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01222007...rry_brooks.htm

Larry forgot to mention Ivan Baranka

I don't why the Rangers haven't called up Baranka.The kid should have made the Rangers out of training camp but the number of contracts on the Rangers defense prohibited Baranka from making the team.They called up Fedor Tyutin from Hartford around this time during the 2003-04 season.Bring up Baranka and play him.You would have Tyutin and Baranka.Marc Staal waiting in the wings.Look at Nashville,they have Dan Hamhuis,Ryan Suter(1 AHL season)and Shea Weber(1/2 AHL season) plus Ryan Parent waiting in the wings.Their team is in first place with a nice mix on defense-young and old(Timmonen and Zidlicky).When they lost Brendan Witt and Danny Markov as group III free agents their young players have picked up the slack because they were given the opportunties.Four of the top six forwards were acquired as free agents(Paul Kariya,Jason Arnott and JP Dumont)or through a trade(Steve Sullivan)

An article on Baranka from Bruce Berlet

Quote:
Ivan Baranka has elevated his game the past few months, but after Lowell scored a go-ahead goal late in the second period Saturday night, Wolf Pack coach Jim Schoenfeld admonished his defenseman for a lack of engagement.

Baranka got more involved Sunday and finished with the most significant play against the Springfield Falcons, a shot from just inside the blue line on a power play at 6:55 of the third period that gave the Pack a 2-1 victory before 4,489 at the Civic Center
http://www.courant.com/sports/hockey...adlines-hockey

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01-22-2007, 07:02 AM
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Ola
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Brooks are pushing for Dubinsky. I am not sold on that it would work.

It would be a must to play him with Cullen on LW with Shanahan, to help out in the transition game. It would have been one thing if we had a LW and a RW that worked together, and let Dubi go from there. But now?

At the same time it could work, and playing with Shanahan might really sky rocket his development.

I would say that its worth investigating it, I defenitly agrees with Brooks there.

But I don't know if bringing up anyone no matter the cost is worth it.

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01-22-2007, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Brooks are pushing for Dubinsky. I am not sold on that it would work.

It would be a must to play him with Cullen on LW with Shanahan, to help out in the transition game. It would have been one thing if we had a LW and a RW that worked together, and let Dubi go from there. But now?

At the same time it could work, and playing with Shanahan might really sky rocket his development.

I would say that its worth investigating it, I defenitly agrees with Brooks there.

But I don't know if bringing up anyone no matter the cost is worth it.
This philosophy is exactly why there are so many ineffective vets on the Rangers right now... because the organization is more comfortable with playing subpar vets instead of trying, I repeat trying, youth in these situations. Baranka is a great example. It is obvious now halfway through the season to certain vets just aren't working. They aren't a part of the future and they really don't look like they are a part of the present. It makes too much sense to go with youth on tryout basises, so the same old plan will be blindly followed.

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01-22-2007, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
This philosophy is exactly why there are so many ineffective vets on the Rangers right now... because the organization is more comfortable with playing subpar vets instead of trying, I repeat trying, youth in these situations. Baranka is a great example. It is obvious now halfway through the season to certain vets just aren't working. They aren't a part of the future and they really don't look like they are a part of the present. It makes too much sense to go with youth on tryout basises, so the same old plan will be blindly followed.
Agreed. It's been my argument since the beginning of the year. Sneaking into the playoffs is not the goal. BUILDING a team to legitimately contend each year is the only goal Management should know by now this team is very flawed and won't win a Cup.Youth must be played

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01-22-2007, 08:35 AM
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Ola, I don't know that Brook's is pining for a certain player as much as he's simply making a blanket statement about the way youth are handled by the organization. I can't think of a day the topic hadn't been addressed here at HFNYR.

For me, the heart of the article was the implication that Schoenfeld is apparently calling the shots on these promotions from Hartford, or lack thereof. Not sure I believe it, nor am I sure that Jessiman's demotion to Charlotte is somehow bad for the Rangers, but it's an interesting take. I would have like to have heard more evidence to support such a claim other than "Renney's a pushover".

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01-22-2007, 08:55 AM
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Brooks makes good points. I totally agree. Think of last year, the youth was what drove the Rangers last year. last year they out worked teams for 60 minutes, this year they outwork teams for 15 minutes a game. Now they may have more "talent" but less intensity(heart?).

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01-22-2007, 09:08 AM
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duh? We all know this except Rangers management

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01-22-2007, 09:23 AM
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Rangerboy...

Baranka had a great game on Sunday night. He absolutely was more involved. He plays the PP point quite well too, throwing a lot of pucks on net (only a couple got through though). He seems to have come back from his lack of playing time nicely and is making his case.

Larry has been pushing Dubi - who I think still just isn't ready. I'm all for watching a kid go through growing pains, but he's still going through growing pains in Hartford, having started off the season very lost and unimpressive. He still needs time.

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01-22-2007, 09:45 AM
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Its not so much who they bring up as it is that they bring SOMEONE up and give them the opportunity to outplay a veteran and earn a spot! Every so often Brooks has written a real good article that strikes a chord with me. This is one of those articles. Its imperative that Renney re take the reigns, and does whats best for the organization and not whats best for the current roster. These players in Hartford need to see that there is a spot for them on the big club as long as they play hard and do what is asked of them on and off the ice. As for the current roster of veteran players, it's only natural to think that they too need the spectre of youngbloods on the horizon pushing at their skateblades for their jobs. Competition is what its about, even from within. Without that possibility, you get the Rangers pre 2004!

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01-22-2007, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
because the organization is more comfortable with playing subpar vets instead of trying, I repeat trying, youth in these situations. Baranka is a great example.
Ranking the kids before this season Dawes, Immonen and Pck quit clearly lead the pack, and all were tried and none worked.

There is nothing to gain in trying a kid that clearly aren't ready. Especially not a D at MSG. Its one thing for a young kid to come in hand hold his own a few games, though especially at D you know there is gooing to be up and downs, and for a young D who aren't ready thoose downs would be really ugly and could have a big impact on that players confidence.

To put things in perspective, Baranka were pretty far behind were Kondratiev were a year ago gooing into this season. Drats at times upseted a few fans... For Ivan to get booed in MSG, it would hardly help his development.

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It is obvious now halfway through the season to certain vets just aren't working. They aren't a part of the future and they really don't look like they are a part of the present. It makes too much sense to go with youth on tryout basises, so the same old plan will be blindly followed.
There are other aspects.

Lets say we got a player who are really good in some aspects and can contribute with thoose in NY, but also defenitly aren't ready in others, that might be a player who you can give a shot instead of a player who just aren't getting it done.

The problem is when that kid can't even contribute at the NHL level in the areas that are his strengths. Like Dawes for example. If Nigel had gotten involved in the offensive play here in NY, not necessary scoring a handful of goals, but beeing dangerous on the rush, transporting the puck some, challenging D's ect, I personally wouldn't have cared if he screwed up some defensivly. But the problem with Nigel weren't his flaws, like his size, and defensive awarness as a checking line player, his problems were that he basically didn't get involved at all in the offensive aspects. At the most one or two quick touches and fast shots per game. In a enviorment like that he won't develop at all. If thoose areas aren't good enough, he needs to improve them. And in order to improve them he needs to practise at them. And if he aren't good enough to find ways to use them in the NHL, he won't get a oppertunity to improve them. Thats the minimum criteria IMO, that a player should be able to contribute in the aspects of the game that are supposed to be his strengths.

So while Dawes possibly couldn't have been worse then Adam Hall, I belive that playing him in Hall's role in NY, there wouldn't have been much to gain. Like lets say that we gave him one full year in that role, what would the product have been next season, would he then have been able to challenge for a bigger role? No I don't belive so, because Dawes needs to become even better at transporting the puck, at stickhandling, at getting involved offensivly. Even if he had played with Nylander and Jagr there would have been very little of that. He defenitly would have scored 20 goals in 82 games, maybe even more, but it would have been Nylander and Jagr who transported the puck, there would have been thoose players who found the open ice. Dawes would have had a great year and the hype would have sky rocketed, but surely, played in a diffrent situation when Nyls and JJ are gone, his flaws would have become obvious.

Though with Dubinsky it might be diffrent. Its possible that his offensive game might be good enough to make a contribution in the NHL. But that his lack of experience in the transition game might really have hurted the team. Its possible that he would be able to develop playing in the NHL.

But in Dubinsky's case there are other aspects, like were he can develop the fastest, the NHL or the AHL? He is involved allot more in all aspects in HFD, that might correct his flaws faster for example.

Though the bottomline is that I defenitly don't always think its wrong playing a vet as just a stopgap in NY untill the kids are ready.

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01-22-2007, 09:52 AM
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Every other team in the league, including those at the top of the standings (including the Devs) have no problem plugging youngsters into their lineup. Why can't we?
The Rangers expect their young players to be fully developed, fulled "formed" and ready to perform like seasoned vets when they bring them up. They are intolerant of mistakes and impatient when young players have an up and down development curve.
There isn't another team with this attitude. Most teams see NHL playing time as a young players "finishing school," knowing that talented youth can only benefit by being pushed at a higher level. They know and expect their kids to make mistakes but can live with them. In the meanwhile, teams benefit from the enthusiasm and energy that young players bring. Only a change in management is going to change this. And I thought that was what Sather was going to bring with him from Edmonton. Instead he fell into the Neil Smith mode
(but I will never knock Neil because of 94)

To quote Bob Hartley again: "when you play old players they just get older, when you play young players they only get better."

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01-22-2007, 10:14 AM
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The thing is to really develop players, you have to give them time at that level. It might be just 10 games the first season which they should start to get at about 20-21 NOT at 23+

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01-22-2007, 10:21 AM
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Ola
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
Every other team in the league, including those at the top of the standings (including the Devs) have no problem plugging youngsters into their lineup. Why can't we?

The Rangers expect their young players to be fully developed, fulled "formed" and ready to perform like seasoned vets when they bring them up. They are intolerant of mistakes and impatient when young players have an up and down development curve.
There isn't another team with this attitude. Most teams see NHL playing time as a young players "finishing school," knowing that talented youth can only benefit by being pushed at a higher level.
To be honest, that really aren't the case.

Parise, Zajac and Oduya are NJD's rookies. Oduya is 26 y/o. Zach Parise have played a full year in the AHL, and then played 13 min per game his first year in the NHL. And he was a pretty good prospect, not really compareable too Dawes or Callahan. Comparable to Zajac would be Dubinsky. But Zajac is much more well rounded then Dubinsky are. Dubinsky got raw potential, but struggled allot with the center role in camp. Its one thing to take the puck up ice in the CHL and another to do it in the NHL. I think its pretty safe to say that Dubi wouldn't have played right away for NJD either.

And while we are talking about NJD we should mention there nr 1 ranked prospect, Niklas Bergfors. He is on his 2nd season in the AHL.

Other NHL teams play players that are ready.

Many around here compare our top 10 prospects, and how we are handling them, with how other teams have handled the one of their propects who were big upset, like Zajac, but fail to mention Bergfors. For every Marc-Edouard Vlasic that are played, there is 200-300's of kids that aren't brought up like him.

A great example is Lars Johnsson in Philly, allot of people used him as a example. They put him on the top PP unit and the 2nd pair right away, there were a big storm here, how could Philly play Johnsson when we can't play Pck? Johnsson lasted all of 8 games in the NHL. Nobody uses him as a example of how Philly is such a great org at giving their kids a shot to play anymore.

Renney had no problem playing the kids last season, because they were ready. Lundqvist, Tyutin, Hollweg, Prucha and Moore. I am sure there were quite allot of fans around the league saying, look Rangers brought over Lundqvist/Prucha straight from Sweden/Czech and made him a starter, why can't with do that with X.

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01-22-2007, 10:34 AM
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strange that the player that Brooks wants to see (dubinsky) is clearly not ready while the players that he lists as maybes (Callahan, Dawes, Korpikoski) and not at all (Baranka) are far more advanced and deseerving of a call up. This is not a knock on Dubinsky, he's playing in his first pro season, but what has he done to earn a call up? Makes me question Brook's handle on our prospects.

I do think that the time has come to give Callahan and Baranka a shot. Dawes is also deserving but somewhat tricky because he doesn't have a spot. He's not someone that your gonna call up to muck and grind. Ideally you want to put him on the left side of Cullen on the second line (well actually there's nothing ideal about Cullen as a second line pivot, but you know what I meen.) The problem is that you already have an undersized young left winger that should (even though he rarely does) play at that spot. How many offensively minded, smallish left wingers can this team play? If Prucha is traded (and i'd put money down that he is) then that would be the right time to call up Dawes.

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01-22-2007, 10:38 AM
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I'M one of the guys pulling Jim Schoenfeld away from referee Don Koharski at the Meadowlands in the famous 1988 "Have Another Doughnut" incident. I'm the guy, then VP of Whatever it Was for the Devils, repeatedly warning, "Schony, Schony, Schony," at the origin of what became one of the most controversial episodes in league history.
That's something I didn't know, how about that?

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01-22-2007, 10:39 AM
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strange that the player that Brooks wants to see (dubinsky) is clearly not ready while the players that he lists as maybes (Callahan, Dawes, Korpikoski) and not at all (Baranka) are far more advanced and deseerving of a call up.
Again, I don't think the article is about who Brooks wants to see promoted, it's that Schoenfeld doesn't want to promote those guys. That's at least what I took away from it.

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01-22-2007, 10:49 AM
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Renney had no problem playing the kids last season, because they were ready. Lundqvist, Tyutin, Hollweg, Prucha and Moore. I am sure there were quite allot of fans around the league saying, look Rangers brought over Lundqvist/Prucha straight from Sweden/Czech and made him a starter, why can't with do that with X.
This seams slightly revisionist to me. Prucha got jerked around for quite sometime before he was given major minutes, and then it was mostly due to Rosy's injury. Tyutin was already established and Moore and Hollweg are checkers who ofetn got 4th line minutes. Lundqvist simply blew Weekes out of the water.

This really is the problem with the Ranger's policy towards youth. Veterans are given the benefit of the doubt while kids are asked to be perfect from day one. While you never want to hand a kid a spot, it's also unfair to ask a kid to prove that he is signifigantly better than a proven veteran the first minute he steps on the ice or wait for the veteran to get injured. If a prospect is playing well enough to deserve a call up, and I don't know how anyone can say that Callahan hasn't, then he should be allowed the opertunity to earn a spot with the big team, especially when there are players infront of him that are underperforming :cough:Hall:cough:. And an opertunity doesn't meen one or two games, it meens long enough for him to get aclimated to the pace of the NHL. Asking a guy to jump from the AHL to the NHL and be perfect from the get go is unreasonable.

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01-22-2007, 10:58 AM
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Again, I don't think the article is about who Brooks wants to see promoted, it's that Schoenfeld doesn't want to promote those guys. That's at least what I took away from it.
fair enough, I admit to being guilty of not reading the article and only the quote RangerBoy poasted (i've since gone back read the article.)

and if this is the case, then this organzation is evenmore assbackwards than we thought.

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01-22-2007, 11:11 AM
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Larry Melnyk
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Maybe the time is now right for Brooks to start whining about bringing up the kids...But I still think, for their development, all the kids have been in the right place this year and it will only help them in the long run (which seems to be what everybody cares about)...

Yes, almost all of us saw the problems with the Parent club...Many wanted kids called up to replace them..Personally, I would have loved to seen the kids up but wanted them down in the AHL for more development---which seems to be coming along nicely...

But now we get down to brass tacks up in NY where something has to be done..SOME kids are ready and the Rangers need help....Now you do it...Dubinsky would be better served in the AHL, but I think he will be the recall at C and one of Callahan/Dawes....

Still think it's only temporary becasue I thhink a big part of Renney looking over the kids in Hartford is to decide which players or prospects they want to deal for a 2nd C and maybe more...I can't see such a deal not happening..

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01-22-2007, 11:23 AM
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Bringing up young guys isnt so simple. People on the Devils boards would love to see Bergfors and Greene (who was sent down on Saturday) to play up in the NHL.

But it isnt so smart. Players may have raw talent and play well in the AHL, but how they handled Parise is the way to go. Season or two in the AHL, then 15 mins a game in the NHL for one season, then more mins and responsibility the season after.

Players arent tools where you simply bring them up and integrate them into the team. Bring some of these guys up too early and they fizzle out.

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01-22-2007, 11:27 AM
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Bringing up young guys isnt so simple. People on the Devils boards would love to see Bergfors and Greene (who was sent down on Saturday) to play up in the NHL.

But it isnt so smart. Players may have raw talent and play well in the AHL, but how they handled Parise is the way to go. Season or two in the AHL, then 15 mins a game in the NHL for one season, then more mins and responsibility the season after.

Players arent tools where you simply bring them up and integrate them into the team. Bring some of these guys up too early and they fizzle out.
I agree. Most of the griping isn't about first year players like Dubinsky or or Korpikoski, but about Dawes (who made the team out of camp and played very well in the A last year), Baranka (an AHL veteran at this point who probably doesn't have much more to learn) and Callahan (a first year AHLer but he's playing so well that he needs a look.)

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01-22-2007, 11:40 AM
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AS much as I would love to see some of our youth injected into the Rangers' lineup, my worry is that long term it would hurt their development. Let's keep the past in mind when we consider the future. It's too soon for Dubi and Korps, but Callahan, Baranka, Immo and Dawes could be given a look over the next couple weeks.

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01-22-2007, 11:52 AM
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AS much as I would love to see some of our youth injected into the Rangers' lineup, my worry is that long term it would hurt their development. Let's keep the past in mind when we consider the future. It's too soon for Dubi and Korps, but Callahan, Baranka, Immo and Dawes could be given a look over the next couple weeks.
I agree--now..but I think up to this point all these kids have benefitted from where they have been....

The problem is that our biggest need is at 2nd C and, I guess i'm in the minority, but I don't see IMMO as an NHL C, let alone a 2nd C...I just think he doesn't have the speed, enrgy, and physiclaity there...That leaves Dubinsky, who I think has all three, but probably isn't ready...Why the Ranger will get a 2nd C from outside the org--but may also bring up Dubi as a place holder----...and hopefully also bring up a young winger.....

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01-22-2007, 11:58 AM
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I don't really see a problem with bringing Dubinsky up for a few games and seeing what he can do. If it's not working out--just send him back. One thing for sure that hasn't worked and hasn't given any real indication from anybody of working is the 2nd line center spot. Is there anyone out there who thinks Cullen is doing a good job feeding Shanny or that Betts is offensively creative enough to handle that job description? Krog? It may be that Jarkko didn't get a fair enough chance but whatever the case is that hole we have in the middle of the second line is big enough to sink the ship. The other option is a trade (rental) which is likely going to cost good young players--or we can stay with the status quo (kind of our Iraq plan) and see if whether doing the same thing over and over again is going to give us a different result.

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01-22-2007, 11:58 AM
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Like Dawes for example. If Nigel had gotten involved in the offensive play here in NY, not necessary scoring a handful of goals, but beeing dangerous on the rush, transporting the puck some, challenging D's ect, I personally wouldn't have cared if he screwed up some defensivly. But the problem with Nigel weren't his flaws, like his size, and defensive awarness as a checking line player, his problems were that he basically didn't get involved at all in the offensive aspects. At the most one or two quick touches and fast shots per game. In a enviorment like that he won't develop at all. If thoose areas aren't good enough, he needs to improve them. And in order to improve them he needs to practise at them. And if he aren't good enough to find ways to use them in the NHL, he won't get a oppertunity to improve them. Thats the minimum criteria IMO, that a player should be able to contribute in the aspects of the game that are supposed to be his strengths.

So while Dawes possibly couldn't have been worse then Adam Hall, I belive that playing him in Hall's role in NY, there wouldn't have been much to gain. Like lets say that we gave him one full year in that role, what would the product have been next season, would he then have been able to challenge for a bigger role? No I don't belive so, because Dawes needs to become even better at transporting the puck, at stickhandling, at getting involved offensivly.
I VEHEMENTLY disagree with all of this. How can ANYONE say that Dawes was given a fair chance. This is a kid who is a top 6 forward, not a bottom line grinder. They play him on the 4th line, for 6 minutes a game. what exactly do you expect from him? If im not mistaken the 1, and only 1 game where Dawes got to play with a legit offensive threat (Nylander) he scored a goal, and looked damn good all night out there.

Same thing with Prucha how exactly does having him on the 4th line help the team at all? if hes on the 3rd line with guys with some offensive talent, then sure, i can buy the spreading around of the offense, but youve got to have those 2 important caveats there. 1)GIVE HIM PLAYING TIME!!! 2)Put him in a position to USE his strengths.
Playing Nigel Dawes with Ryan Hollweg and Colton Orr shows us what Nigel can do how exactly?

Nigel can, and should be playing in the NHL, if anything his experience here with the Rangers probably was more negative than anything. Playing him out of position and showing little to no confidence in the kid doesnt help the cause one freakin bit.

Its something further to add in the laundry list of poor decisions we can add to Renneys coaching tenure here with the Rangers.

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