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Old
01-07-2014, 09:13 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Had we waited and Emelin had a strong second-half of the season, he would've cost much more. The Cap is about to go up and a D like him will be a fortune. At least a D like him from last season.

Will he get back to where he was? I think it's a worthwhile gamble that he will. I'm sure Bergevin confirmed Emelin's knee was 100%, but then he gambled that his game would return to 100% and signed him cheaper, pre-UFA. I'll give Emelin until March for a fair assessment.
...Emelin needs to be put back on the left side for awhile...

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01-07-2014, 09:16 AM
  #202
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Now that I think of it, Emelin's failures DID start off when he was put on the RIGHT side next to Markov.

Emelin was doing an absolutely great job on the left side, for a #3/4 d-man

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01-07-2014, 09:17 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Had we waited and Emelin had a strong second-half of the season, he would've cost much more. The Cap is about to go up and a D like him will be a fortune. At least a D like him from last season.

Will he get back to where he was? I think it's a worthwhile gamble that he will. I'm sure Bergevin confirmed Emelin's knee was 100%, but then he gambled that his game would return to 100% and signed him cheaper, pre-UFA. I'll give Emelin until March for a fair assessment.
If he really was going to cost much more (not sure I agree with you there), then Bergevin should have walked. Historically, defensive defensemen break down quickly and are not worth either long term investment or big time cash. At least, that's my philosophy. I'm barely OK with the deal he got now, any more (either cash or term) would have really been not worth it IMO.

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01-07-2014, 09:21 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Now that I think of it, Emelin's failures DID start off when he was put on the RIGHT side next to Markov.

Emelin was doing an absolutely great job on the left side, for a #3/4 d-man
everyone sees it but MT.


We have ONE leftie who can play the exact same when put on the right, it's Gorges, we have another leftie who has shown already to be lost on the right...

it's so damn simple :
Markov - Subban
Emelin (left) - Gorges (right)

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01-07-2014, 09:24 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
everyone sees it but MT.


We have ONE leftie who can play the exact same when put on the right, it's Gorges, we have another leftie who has shown already to be lost on the right...

it's so damn simple :
Markov - Subban
Emelin (left) - Gorges (right)
Tinordi plays on the right-hand side, right?

Hope he'll graduate to the NHL soon.

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01-07-2014, 09:25 AM
  #206
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I struggle to buy the side argument. A pro of that caliber should be able to adjust to both sides. Sure he can be more comfortable on one side than the other, but shouldn't make him completely ineffective. Yes on the PP or something like that but without the puck defensive coverage is defensive coverage regardless of what side you're on.

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01-07-2014, 09:26 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Tinordi plays on the right-hand side, right?

Hope he'll graduate to the NHL soon.
...Tinordi was also not good on the right when he was called up...Greg Pateryn is a righty and is pretty much ready to make the jump; why not call him up if they need a righty that bad??...

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01-07-2014, 11:58 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Had we waited and Emelin had a strong second-half of the season, he would've cost much more. The Cap is about to go up and a D like him will be a fortune. At least a D like him from last season.

Will he get back to where he was? I think it's a worthwhile gamble that he will. I'm sure Bergevin confirmed Emelin's knee was 100%, but then he gambled that his game would return to 100% and signed him cheaper, pre-UFA. I'll give Emelin until March for a fair assessment.
Much more??? How much do you think he was going to get?? 5.5M???
5M? Which is only a 900K increase in the cap hit..

The fact he got 4.1M after such an injury was already huge. The guy had not played in 8 months, and he wasn't this soldier beast everybody has made themselves believe because we coincidentally started sucking when he went down last year.
He had the same damn flaws. Often caught out of position, mishandles the puck, looks lost at times, less punishing hits.
Emelin's game hasn't changed from last year. What did change is Markov and his ability to cover for Emelin, he just can't do it as much this year. Remember last year when people were saying Markov seems to have slowed down? Well, that pairing looked like as crappy as it does now.
The only time Emelin has looked good was when he played on his natural side. Every time he was moved to the right, he sucked, that includes last year.
So, I don't understand how he got a 4y/4.1M deal to begin with. That was a much bigger deal than I thought he'd get already.
It was a stupid decision.

That being said, I agree, I'm sure Bergevin thinks that had he waited, it would have cost him more. My issue with that is this was the reason he gave to extending DD. That to him, he felt like if he waited, it would end up costing him more in the end. However, he also followed this up by saying he can't go back to change things now, leading people to believe he would have done things differently. And yet, he does the same thing with Emelin this year.

I'm starting to seriously doubt Bergevin's talent analysis. I think he too bought into the whole ''well we started losing after Emelin's injury, therefore he must be the key piece''.
This team is being carried by players that were here before Bergevin. Plek-DD-Max-Gallagher-PK-Markov-Gorges-Gio-Price, none of them are Bergevin acquisitions.
The guys he did bring in, Briere, Bouillon, Armstrong, Murray, Parros, Prust, aside from last season from Prust, they've all been pretty bad. That's concerning to me.
Not to mention, the extensions to DD and Emelin were completely poorly timed.

Hopefully he learns fast. It will be interesting to see what happens with Eller, Markov, PK, Gio, Diaz getting off the book this year. We'll see that he does.

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01-07-2014, 12:24 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Much more??? How much do you think he was going to get?? 5.5M???
5M? Which is only a 900K increase in the cap hit..

The fact he got 4.1M after such an injury was already huge. The guy had not played in 8 months, and he wasn't this soldier beast everybody has made themselves believe because we coincidentally started sucking when he went down last year.
He had the same damn flaws. Often caught out of position, mishandles the puck, looks lost at times, less punishing hits.
Emelin's game hasn't changed from last year. What did change is Markov and his ability to cover for Emelin, he just can't do it as much this year. Remember last year when people were saying Markov seems to have slowed down? Well, that pairing looked like as crappy as it does now.
The only time Emelin has looked good was when he played on his natural side. Every time he was moved to the right, he sucked, that includes last year.
So, I don't understand how he got a 4y/4.1M deal to begin with. That was a much bigger deal than I thought he'd get already.
It was a stupid decision.

That being said, I agree, I'm sure Bergevin thinks that had he waited, it would have cost him more. My issue with that is this was the reason he gave to extending DD. That to him, he felt like if he waited, it would end up costing him more in the end. However, he also followed this up by saying he can't go back to change things now, leading people to believe he would have done things differently. And yet, he does the same thing with Emelin this year.

I'm starting to seriously doubt Bergevin's talent analysis. I think he too bought into the whole ''well we started losing after Emelin's injury, therefore he must be the key piece''.
This team is being carried by players that were here before Bergevin. Plek-DD-Max-Gallagher-PK-Markov-Gorges-Gio-Price, none of them are Bergevin acquisitions.
The guys he did bring in, Briere, Bouillon, Armstrong, Murray, Parros, Prust, aside from last season from Prust, they've all been pretty bad. That's concerning to me.
Not to mention, the extensions to DD and Emelin were completely poorly timed.

Hopefully he learns fast. It will be interesting to see what happens with Eller, Markov, PK, Gio, Diaz getting off the book this year. We'll see that he does.
Do you remember when EVERYONE was saying that the Habs got a bad season ending and 2013 Playoffs BECAUSE he was not there....
But I agree that ONCE AGAIN, Bergevin signed a player too early for too long and too much $$$. he is the opposite of Gainey who never wanted to re-sign a player during the season.

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01-07-2014, 12:35 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Much more??? How much do you think he was going to get?? 5.5M???
5M? Which is only a 900K increase in the cap hit..

The fact he got 4.1M after such an injury was already huge. The guy had not played in 8 months, and he wasn't this soldier beast everybody has made themselves believe because we coincidentally started sucking when he went down last year.
He had the same damn flaws. Often caught out of position, mishandles the puck, looks lost at times, less punishing hits.
Emelin's game hasn't changed from last year. What did change is Markov and his ability to cover for Emelin, he just can't do it as much this year. Remember last year when people were saying Markov seems to have slowed down? Well, that pairing looked like as crappy as it does now.
The only time Emelin has looked good was when he played on his natural side. Every time he was moved to the right, he sucked, that includes last year.
So, I don't understand how he got a 4y/4.1M deal to begin with. That was a much bigger deal than I thought he'd get already.
It was a stupid decision.

That being said, I agree, I'm sure Bergevin thinks that had he waited, it would have cost him more. My issue with that is this was the reason he gave to extending DD. That to him, he felt like if he waited, it would end up costing him more in the end. However, he also followed this up by saying he can't go back to change things now, leading people to believe he would have done things differently. And yet, he does the same thing with Emelin this year.

I'm starting to seriously doubt Bergevin's talent analysis. I think he too bought into the whole ''well we started losing after Emelin's injury, therefore he must be the key piece''.
This team is being carried by players that were here before Bergevin. Plek-DD-Max-Gallagher-PK-Markov-Gorges-Gio-Price, none of them are Bergevin acquisitions.
The guys he did bring in, Briere, Bouillon, Armstrong, Murray, Parros, Prust, aside from last season from Prust, they've all been pretty bad. That's concerning to me.
Not to mention, the extensions to DD and Emelin were completely poorly timed.

Hopefully he learns fast. It will be interesting to see what happens with Eller, Markov, PK, Gio, Diaz getting off the book this year. We'll see that he does.
You know as well as I do that there's a huge gap between what we think a player's worth, and what the market says he's worth. Especially this summer when GMs go on a signing frenzy as the Cap goes up. It'll be terrifying and amusing to see what insane contracts are handed out! My guess is that $4.1M for a solid D in his prime will look pretty good in eight months. We'll see. Of course Emelin has to earn his money, and I admit he's looked bad this season. But I remain optimistic that he'll get back to 100%.

We'll have to agree to disagree on what 100% of Emelin actually means. Last season, I saw a responsible defenseman who became much better at handling the puck and taking out the opposition. He was a solid 2nd pairing. Yes, I saw mistakes, but much fewer than what you're describing. I do agree he was (and is) better on his natural side, though I think the difference is overstated. Most of Emelin's current problems are -- I hope -- because of conditioning, vision and confidence, three factors he can improve on with time.

Bottom line, I think it was worth the gamble to sign him. His skillset fills a desperate need on this team, provided, of course, that he reaches his potential. I'm guessing you'll be very happy with the guy come playoff time. But if we're still seeing the same issues in two months, you have license to say "I told you so".

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01-07-2014, 12:43 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Now that I think of it, Emelin's failures DID start off when he was put on the RIGHT side next to Markov.

Emelin was doing an absolutely great job on the left side, for a #3/4 d-man
Maybe, but last season he was doing a good job on the right side. It's worrisome IMO. I'm still confident it's bad strecht.


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01-07-2014, 12:46 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
You know as well as I do that there's a huge gap between what we think a player's worth, and what the market says he's worth. Especially this summer when GMs go on a signing frenzy as the Cap goes up. It'll be terrifying and amusing to see what insane contracts are handed out! My guess is that $4.1M for a solid D in his prime will look pretty good in eight months. We'll see. Of course Emelin has to earn his money, and I admit he's looked bad this season. But I remain optimistic that he'll get back to 100%.

We'll have to agree to disagree on what 100% of Emelin actually means. Last season, I saw a responsible defenseman who became much better at handling the puck and taking out the opposition. He was a solid 2nd pairing. Yes, I saw mistakes, but much fewer than what you're describing. I do agree he was (and is) better on his natural side, though I think the difference is overstated. Most of Emelin's current problems are -- I hope -- because of conditioning, vision and confidence, three factors he can improve on with time.

Bottom line, I think it was worth the gamble to sign him. His skillset fills a desperate need on this team, provided, of course, that he reaches his potential. I'm guessing you'll be very happy with the guy come playoff time. But if we're still seeing the same issues in two months, you have license to say "I told you so".
He came back from his injury too early. No training camp is starting to bite him in the ass. + Now he got his fat, long contract !!!

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01-07-2014, 12:47 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
If he really was going to cost much more (not sure I agree with you there), then Bergevin should have walked. Historically, defensive defensemen break down quickly and are not worth either long term investment or big time cash. At least, that's my philosophy. I'm barely OK with the deal he got now, any more (either cash or term) would have really been not worth it IMO.
Emelin will have just turned 32 when his contract ends. Still pretty young to be worried about breaking down. Bergevin gambled on an upside that, if Emelin reaches it, will make his contract look brilliant. Even if he doesn't reach his potential, his position, age and size will make him an attractive trade asset. Most teams (including us) are always on the lookout for a big, physical Dman.

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01-07-2014, 12:54 PM
  #214
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If he really was going to cost much more (not sure I agree with you there), then Bergevin should have walked.
Don't know if you mean Bergevin should have walked or if he should have let Emelin walk. If it is the latter, then I would consider that a very odd approach to building a team. Letting Emelin walk leaves a hole in the defense, even if he is playing at a sub-par level at he moment. I don't know how that would be filled if our young players aren't even at the level where they can replace Bouillon or Murray.

There are so many comments on this board about getting rid of this player or that player in order to improve the team but no one really comes up with any legitimate alternatives to replace the players they would like to see gone.

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01-07-2014, 12:56 PM
  #215
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Do you remember when EVERYONE was saying that the Habs got a bad season ending and 2013 Playoffs BECAUSE he was not there....
But I agree that ONCE AGAIN, Bergevin signed a player too early for too long and too much $$$. he is the opposite of Gainey who never wanted to re-sign a player during the season.
The only player who didn't get overpaid and paid too early is Subban... our best player..

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01-07-2014, 12:57 PM
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He came back from his injury too early. No training camp is starting to bite him in the ass. + Now he got his fat, long contract !!!
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Do you mean we should give him more time before making a judgment about him.
or
Do you mean you think he is being paid too much

He eventually has to play to get into game shape and catch up with the rest of the team so at some point you are going to have give him some time to get his timing, etc. back.

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01-07-2014, 12:59 PM
  #217
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Now that I think of it, Emelin's failures DID start off when he was put on the RIGHT side next to Markov.

Emelin was doing an absolutely great job on the left side, for a #3/4 d-man
I think all Dmen should play on their stick side... but this is just false. Emelin played left only in his rookie season... where he was TERRIBLE defensively. He became a top 4 player last season playing with markov on the right side.

He also started off really hot with Gorges this year again on the right side. I'd still try him on the left, but I just think he hasn't reached the top 4 level yet. He has yet to play well on the left side in the NHL

Play him with Subban! Look what he did for bouillon

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01-07-2014, 01:00 PM
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Maybe, but last season he was doing a good job on the right side. It's worrisome IMO. I'm still confident it's bad strecht.
It is a bad stretch and I hope he works his way out of it... but the way posters go berserk on this board... it's almost as if they need someone to pick on to make themselves good or to appear knowledgeable.

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01-07-2014, 01:37 PM
  #219
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I think all Dmen should play on their stick side... but this is just false. Emelin played left only in his rookie season... where he was TERRIBLE defensively. He became a top 4 player last season playing with markov on the right side.

He also started off really hot with Gorges this year again on the right side. I'd still try him on the left, but I just think he hasn't reached the top 4 level yet. He has yet to play well on the left side in the NHL

Play him with Subban! Look what he did for bouillon
This should hopefully resonate with a few people about the side argument. Fact is Emelin is playing not even half of the level he was last year and I really doubt that it's because he was switched sides. Sure he might be more comfortable on the left, but it doesn't explain his recent play.

Not that it can compare to the level he's playing at in any way shape or form, but I play D and I'm a lefty and I actually prefer the right side because it gives me a better angle on playing the body and the puck when the guy tries to cut to the middle. My stick is on its strong side when I knock pucks off rushing forwards trying to cut inside. It also gives me a better angle at the net from the point when I have the puck. Only disadvantage is I'm on my blind side when retrieving pucks down low on the right side of the defensive zone.

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01-07-2014, 01:44 PM
  #220
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You know as well as I do that there's a huge gap between what we think a player's worth, and what the market says he's worth. Especially this summer when GMs go on a signing frenzy as the Cap goes up. It'll be terrifying and amusing to see what insane contracts are handed out! My guess is that $4.1M for a solid D in his prime will look pretty good in eight months. We'll see. Of course Emelin has to earn his money, and I admit he's looked bad this season. But I remain optimistic that he'll get back to 100%.
That's not the point. Nobody is talking about letting him hit free agency, or are you arguing that had we not re-signed him when we did then there was no way he would have been re-signed later unless it's to a vast open market ridiculous deal???
I don't understand this belief in Habs fans. It's the same thing when people argue that if PK was signed to a 5year deal, then he would have been eligible for UFA and that means we would have lost him. Like seriously, wtf.

We could have waited for him to come back, see where he stands a month after, or two, and then decide. If Emelin decided to be greedy and ask for 6M because he was playing well, then you trade him. Just like if you don't re-sign Markov by deadline despite trying, you should trade him, regardless of the standings because let's face it, we're not winning the cup with this roster. It's truly as simple as that.
But there's no reason to believe we wouldn't have been able to re-sign him, and had we waited, it would have probably been for cheaper and shorter (just like DD, the exact same scenario).

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We'll have to agree to disagree on what 100% of Emelin actually means. Last season, I saw a responsible defenseman who became much better at handling the puck and taking out the opposition. He was a solid 2nd pairing. Yes, I saw mistakes, but much fewer than what you're describing. I do agree he was (and is) better on his natural side, though I think the difference is overstated. Most of Emelin's current problems are -- I hope -- because of conditioning, vision and confidence, three factors he can improve on with time.
I think Emelin did the same mistakes, a little difference in his game since he wasn't coming back from 8months off due to injury. But the same poor reads, the same puck mishandling, the same positional mistakes due to playing on his off side. His skating and timing is a little more off due to his injury, but the bulk of it is identical to last year.
I don't think conditioning or confidence have much to do with his mistakes. He's just not comfortable out there and it's blatantly obvious. Maybe Therrien never saw Emelin play on the left side and on the PP, maybe he thinks he's right handed. I don't know. But deciding to use Bouillon or Murray on their off wing and scratching Emelin before giving him a chance to play on his natural side is just completely senseless. Not to mention, playing Bouillon-Gorges on the PP before him when he clearly has better passing and shooting than both those guys is another complete mystery to me. Did he not see some highlights from his last year in the KHL where he was a set up guy on the point and racked up points??

I think many of the problems Emelin have can be fixed by using him smartly. He will still need to improve on things, it won't be perfect, but it will make a significant difference. It has before, so I don't see why it wouldn't this time.

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Bottom line, I think it was worth the gamble to sign him. His skillset fills a desperate need on this team, provided, of course, that he reaches his potential. I'm guessing you'll be very happy with the guy come playoff time. But if we're still seeing the same issues in two months, you have license to say "I told you so".
It's not about ''I told you so'' in 2 months. You already know the answer.
We signed him before he played, he comes back and now is regularly scratched and benched. It was premature.
I'll be very happy the day we make him play with Diaz. When Martin had these two together, that's when he looked best.

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01-07-2014, 01:56 PM
  #221
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I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Do you mean we should give him more time before making a judgment about him.
or
Do you mean you think he is being paid too much

He eventually has to play to get into game shape and catch up with the rest of the team so at some point you are going to have give him some time to get his timing, etc. back.
Reasons for his actual struggle:

I just mean he got back too early, and he came back in the big crunch when the team was playing every two nights. Soory but training camps are crucial - maybe not for superstars like Crosby and Mario Lemieux - but otherwise, they are.

Like DD, he is comfortable with his new contract. Like DD, I hope he will bounce back soon enough, come back on Earth and play better.

Maybe putting him back with Markov was a mistake.

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01-07-2014, 02:05 PM
  #222
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Don't know if you mean Bergevin should have walked or if he should have let Emelin walk. If it is the latter, then I would consider that a very odd approach to building a team. Letting Emelin walk leaves a hole in the defense, even if he is playing at a sub-par level at he moment. I don't know how that would be filled if our young players aren't even at the level where they can replace Bouillon or Murray.

There are so many comments on this board about getting rid of this player or that player in order to improve the team but no one really comes up with any legitimate alternatives to replace the players they would like to see gone.
See, when you jump in halfway, you risk missing some of the important parts of the conversation. I didn't say Bergevin should have let Emelin walk full-stop, I said if Bergevin had waited to sign Emelin (until the off-season, say) and Emelin had asked for more money than he's earning now...then in that scenario, I would want Bergevin to walk. But obviously that scenario didn't happen, so I see no need to provide "alternatives" to something that never happened in the first place.

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01-07-2014, 05:17 PM
  #223
Doc McKenna
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I think he should be back on the left. I don't see him making bad plays back then. The thing is he doesn't hit on the right side..as much.

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01-07-2014, 05:24 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's not the point. Nobody is talking about letting him hit free agency, or are you arguing that had we not re-signed him when we did then there was no way he would have been re-signed later unless it's to a vast open market ridiculous deal???
I don't understand this belief in Habs fans. It's the same thing when people argue that if PK was signed to a 5year deal, then he would have been eligible for UFA and that means we would have lost him. Like seriously, wtf.

We could have waited for him to come back, see where he stands a month after, or two, and then decide. If Emelin decided to be greedy and ask for 6M because he was playing well, then you trade him. Just like if you don't re-sign Markov by deadline despite trying, you should trade him, regardless of the standings because let's face it, we're not winning the cup with this roster. It's truly as simple as that.
But there's no reason to believe we wouldn't have been able to re-sign him, and had we waited, it would have probably been for cheaper and shorter (just like DD, the exact same scenario).
No, I never thought Emelin would end up testing the UFA waters. I figured he'd be re-signed. $4.1M seems fair, and I have a feeling Bergevin will be vindicated the closer it gets to UFA season, as other re-signings start reflecting an inflated Cap. Salaries are going up, whether this year's UFAs re-sign with their team or hit the open market. You thought it was ridiculous last season? Wait'll this year.

Getting it done early with Emelin pre-empted the escalation that's sure to come.

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It's not about ''I told you so'' in 2 months. You already know the answer.
We signed him before he played, he comes back and now is regularly scratched and benched. It was premature.
I'll be very happy the day we make him play with Diaz. When Martin had these two together, that's when he looked best.
I agree about playing him with Diaz. Diaz has had his own adjustment issues, maybe that's part of the reason. But yeah, the two looked great together, especially at the beginning of last season. As far as his comeback being premature, I don't see any other way for Emelin to get his legs back other than in actual game situations. Unfortunately, that means he's making all his mistakes during actual games. I don't see how anyone can impose a judgment on him or his salary until he's reached his mid-season form, which I estimate to be another month or so. At that point it'll become clearer whether we have a bargain-priced 2nd-pair, or an over-priced bottom pair.

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01-07-2014, 05:30 PM
  #225
Monctonscout
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I think he should be back on the left. I don't see him making bad plays back then. The thing is he doesn't hit on the right side..as much.
He played his best hockey last year and was on the right side all year. Somebody should put you a highlight reel of last year's hits...

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