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Old
01-22-2007, 11:29 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
30 teams = 30 no1 d-men
30 teams = 60 no1 and 2 d-men
30 teams = 90 no1, 2, 3 d-men
etc.

If you ment elite d-men or all-star d-men, it's another story, but when we consider no 1 or 2 or 3 d-men, don't forget there's 30 teams in the nhl.

I guess you were talking more about elite or all-star?
I've seen that argument many times, and i still don't think that makes sense.

30 teams = 60no1 and 2 dmen ????

How does that make sense, for example...The Atlanta Thrashers do not have a true # 1 or # 2 dmen, their top dman is Nik Havelid who IMO, is a good dmen, but more of a # 3 on an average team and a # 4 on a good team.

What about the Hurricanes, do they have a # 1 dman?
What about the Lightning, after Boyle, it gets pretty thin
The Oilers, etc.

There's alot of teams who have players playing the # 1 role, but aren't necessarily # 1 dmen

Hell for several years the Habs # 1 dman was Patrice Brisebois...nuff said

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01-22-2007, 11:31 AM
  #27
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Excellent Post

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I said Souray is a # 3 or 4 dman...are you implying he's more of a #1 or # 2?

I think Souray's got all the physical tools, but he lacks the awareness to be a top pairing defensman, he's a bit of a brute defensively as he uses his strength and not positionning to neutralize opponents, he doesn't think the game well enough defensively IMO.

Even offensively i've noticed that when you take away his shot, he's unsure of what to do...i'm not sure how you think he's a great passer, most of his assists come off rebounds, but I wouldn't say he's a great passer.

Again, i'm not trying to downgrade what Souray can do...but let's call a spade a spade
agreed , why overpay him like # 1 or 2 , when he isn`t , Bang on 417, when are these gm`s going to wake up and sign a player for what he is , not over pay for what he isn`t . WOULD YOU OVER PAY FOR A CAR AT A DEALERSHIP ? We ARE NOT A souray away from anything? Gainey will not pay 10-12 for him and Markov , Andrei
will be retained ,SHELDON I DON`T A PAY A CENT OVER $ 4M , he is having a career year , and will be Theo # 2 all over again. 417 at least you are a realistic Habs fan
not a dreamer like most who over value our talent , Sheldon is good , but if he gets
5.5-6 ish, now he is in Pronger`s pay scale , WAKE UP AND GET REAL HERE , he is nowhere in his class.
Kudos to Regeir who understands the cap and hasn`t missed a beat with Mckie and Dumont getting over paid elsewhere

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01-22-2007, 11:38 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I've seen that argument many times, and i still don't think that makes sense.

30 teams = 60no1 and 2 dmen ????

How does that make sense, for example...The Atlanta Thrashers do not have a true # 1 or # 2 dmen, their top dman is Nik Havelid who IMO, is a good dmen, but more of a # 3 on an average team and a # 4 on a good team.

What about the Hurricanes, do they have a # 1 dman?
What about the Lightning, after Boyle, it gets pretty thin
The Oilers, etc.

There's alot of teams who have players playing the # 1 role, but aren't necessarily # 1 dmen

Hell for several years the Habs # 1 dman was Patrice Brisebois...nuff said
Okay you've slightly contradicted yourself, because Atlanta is a good team. Noone was saying that EVERY team has a #1 defenseman, because obviously Anaheim has two for instance, but the term #1 defenseman isn't as restrictive for many people as you deem it to be.

Get off Brisebois, by the way. He was a good defenseman back in his day. Everyone bashes him now because he's gotten older, poorer and the last memory of him were those of "Breeze-by". He was even a plus player on some pretty poor teams in the late nineties.

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01-22-2007, 11:39 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I've seen that argument many times, and i still don't think that makes sense.

30 teams = 60no1 and 2 dmen ????

How does that make sense, for example...The Atlanta Thrashers do not have a true # 1 or # 2 dmen, their top dman is Nik Havelid who IMO, is a good dmen, but more of a # 3 on an average team and a # 4 on a good team.

What about the Hurricanes, do they have a # 1 dman?
What about the Lightning, after Boyle, it gets pretty thin
The Oilers, etc.

There's alot of teams who have players playing the # 1 role, but aren't necessarily # 1 dmen

Hell for several years the Habs # 1 dman was Patrice Brisebois...nuff said
RedScull response should explain a lot, but it's a question of offer and demand (that's why some d-man are overpaid compare to other).

You should only, again like RedSkull said (we should merge our 2 response!), reconsider your defintion of a no 1 d-man (they're not as good as you think...but some of them yes )...

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01-22-2007, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Okay you've slightly contradicted yourself, because Atlanta is a good team. Noone was saying that EVERY team has a #1 defenseman, because obviously Anaheim has two for instance, but the term #1 defenseman isn't as restrictive for many people as you deem it to be.

Get off Brisebois, by the way. He was a good defenseman back in his day. Everyone bashes him now because he's gotten older, poorer and the last memory of him were those of "Breeze-by". He was even a plus player on some pretty poor teams in the late nineties.
How's that?

Yeah, Atlanta is a good team bolstered by an incredible quick strike offense, but they've got nobody on defense and that will be their downfall, not to mention that they play in a division which seems to lack quality defensman, all of Atlanta, Carolina and Tampa Bay lack defensive depth, which explains they're inconsistencies this year IMO.

And yes, the poster wrote that Souray is somewhow a # 1 or # 2 dman because 30 teams equal 30 # 1 dmen and another 30 # 2 dmen.

That's not the case... how did I contradict myself???

As for Brisebois, I wasn't trying to disrepect Brisebois, but he was never a # 1 dman, not even a # 2, he was miscast as such in Montreal which wasn't his fault, but it speaks volumes of a teams defensive situation when Brisebois was your teams best dman, even at his prime Brisebois was never ever a top pairind dman.

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01-22-2007, 11:47 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
RedScull response should explain a lot, but it's a question of offer and demand (that's why some d-man are overpaid compare to other).

You should only, again like RedSkull said (we should merge our 2 response!), reconsider your defintion of a no 1 d-man (they're not as good as you think...but some of them yes )...
No, it doesn't.

I haven't even given you my definition of a no 1 dman, or a list of players I think can be considered no 1, so what is it you want me to reconsider???

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01-22-2007, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
No, it doesn't.

I haven't even given you my definition of a no 1 dman, or a list of players I think can be considered no 1, so what is it you want me to reconsider???
I'm not attacking you or your opinion, just telling you how I define #1 defenseman for comparison's sake. In my mind, there's a difference between an elite defenseman and a #1 defenseman, that the average #1 defenseman isn't elite, though could make the All-Star game.

But the fact that you previously posted "I only consider a handul of defensemen true #1 defensemen" (or something to that effect.. the post is off-page) implies to me that you share the same classifications as many posters on here, whose definitions I am aware of.

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01-22-2007, 11:58 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
How's that?

Yeah, Atlanta is a good team bolstered by an incredible quick strike offense, but they've got nobody on defense and that will be their downfall, not to mention that they play in a division which seems to lack quality defensman, all of Atlanta, Carolina and Tampa Bay lack defensive depth, which explains they're inconsistencies this year IMO.

And yes, the poster wrote that Souray is somewhow a # 1 or # 2 dman because 30 teams equal 30 # 1 dmen and another 30 # 2 dmen.

That's not the case... how did I contradict myself???

As for Brisebois, I wasn't trying to disrepect Brisebois, but he was never a # 1 dman, not even a # 2, he was miscast as such in Montreal which wasn't his fault, but it speaks volumes of a teams defensive situation when Brisebois was your teams best dman, even at his prime Brisebois was never ever a top pairind dman.
You are simplifing a lot my argument here. I never said that "if you're the best d-man for the team, you're a no 1 d-man".

The terms no1, no2 or top 4 are linked to the demands of each teams in the league. If there was 10 teams, the no 1 d-men would be much better than they are right now.

Some teams (Anaheim, Toronto, Detroit...and I would add Mtl, because I believe that Souray and Markov are in the top 30) have more than one no1 d-man, while others (Rangers, Trashers, Oilers...) don't have a top 30 or no 1 d-man...

From the no 1 d-men (which are, to the definition, the 30 best d-men in the league) only a handfull are elite (maybe Norris winners like Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger...) and some constant all-star (Chara, Schneider, Redden, Jovanovski...)

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01-22-2007, 12:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Ouch Maybe I need to pay more attention during games, I don't agree with that, but i'll focus on it more next couple of games...IMO, no one is close to Markov when it comes to finding the open man, after him i'd agree that it's probably Souray, although i swear sometimes his passes are as hard as his shots.
I also give alot of credit to Souray for being able to get open to unleash that deadly one timer, but when teams do find a way to neutralize his shot, I find he doesn't look for other options and keeps trying to get his shot off, which isn't entirely bad, but he's got to show the opposition that if they cover his shot, he can find the open man and I don't think he's proven that on a regular basis.

Don't take my criticism of Souray the wrong way, I'd rather have him on my team than against, but that doesn't mean I think he's indespensable.
Maybe i did exagerate beetween the gap of him and Markov when it comes to playmaking abilities but he is still our 2nd best defensmen passer and yes he is good( maybe not elite) when it comes to finding open players, especially when the player is playing along the boards. I'm starting to find that even us Habs fans open our eyes only when we're on the powerplay when it comes to Souray. I stand by my opinion and think that Souray is a top2 defensmen even at 5 on 5

Could you just imagine our powerplay without Souray? We woudn't be in the top 15 without him

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01-22-2007, 12:03 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
I'm not attacking you or your opinion, just telling you how I define #1 defenseman for comparison's sake. In my mind, there's a difference between an elite defenseman and a #1 defenseman, that the average #1 defenseman isn't elite, though could make the All-Star game.

But the fact that you previously posted "I only consider a handul of defensemen true #1 defensemen" (or something to that effect.. the post is off-page) implies to me that you share the same classifications as many posters on here, whose definitions I am aware of.
No worries, I didn't feel attacked

In that case, I agree with you, I meant to say that there's only a handful of players I consider elite # 1 dmen.

Pronger, Niedermayer, Chara, Lidstrom.

There's there's the no #1 to # 2 dmen, who like you say, aren't elite, but are still top pairing all star dmen.

Kaberle, Redden, Markov, Boyle, Hannan, Zubov, Rafalski, Ohlund, Tallinder, Phaneuf, Timonnen, Boucher, Schneider, i'm sure i've missed a few more.

There's there's another group which I think Souray is included in.

Souray, McCabe, Vishnovsky, Gonchar, Campbell, Liles, Phillips, Jovanoski, Bouwmeester, Pitkanen, Zdlicky, Salo, Hamrlik, Stuart.

That group of players are all solid players, but aren't as complete as the others mentionned above and are better served on the 2nd pairing as opposed to the 1st pairing. They're all pretty good at one thing, but average in all other areas...

That was off the top of my head, i'm sure I missed some players, but you get my point.

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01-22-2007, 12:05 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
No worries, I didn't feel attacked

In that case, I agree with you, I meant to say that there's only a handful of players I consider elite # 1 dmen.

Pronger, Niedermayer, Chara, Lidstrom.

There's there's the no #1 to # 2 dmen, who like you say, aren't elite, but are still top pairing all star dmen.

Kaberle, Redden, Markov, Boyle, Hannan, Zubov, Rafalski, Ohlund, Tallinder, Phaneuf, Timonnen, Boucher, Schneider, i'm sure i've missed a few more.

There's there's another group which I think Souray is included in.

Souray, McCabe, Vishnovsky, Gonchar, Campbell, Liles, Phillips, Jovanoski, Bouwmeester, Pitkanen, Zdlicky, Salo, Hamrlik, Stuart.

That group of players are all solid players, but aren't as complete as the others mentionned above and are better served on the 2nd pairing as opposed to the 1st pairing. They're all pretty good at one thing, but average in all areas...

That was off the top of my head, i'm sure I missed some players, but you get my point.
Interesting you'd put Chara on that first list, but not Redden. Did Muckler choose the wrong defenseman?!

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01-22-2007, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Guillaume the great! View Post
Maybe i did exagerate beetween the gap of him and Markov when it comes to playmaking abilities but he is still our 2nd best defensmen passer and yes he is good( maybe not elite) when it comes to finding open players, especially when the player is playing along the boards. I'm starting to find that even us Habs fans open our eyes only when we're on the powerplay when it comes to Souray. I stand by my opinion and think that Souray is a top2 defensmen even at 5 on 5
Could you just imagine our powerplay without Souray? We woudn't be in the top 15 without him
I respect your opinion, but I don't agree, not even remotely.

It's an adventure with Souray, especially with players who challenge him one on one with speed because his main asset defensively is his strength not positioning.

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01-22-2007, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Interesting you'd put Chara on that first list, but not Redden. Did Muckler choose the wrong defenseman?!
If I think about it, I wouldn't even put Chara in that first group to tell you the truth.

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01-22-2007, 06:00 PM
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I was reading an overrated defensmen thread on the national hockey league thread and people keep putting Souray as the most overrated defensmen. Why? Not only is he the best scoring defensmen in the east but he's getting to be as good as anyone on defense, never makes brain cramp passes like Brisebois used too, he hits, defends his teammates, nice hands, leader on the team. What does he have to do next to earn respect? We're lucky in Montreal to have 2 n.1 defensmen but people just have to complain because of it. Cause Markov didn't get beat 1 on 1 by Spezza or Briere Souray's overrated...
yeah , they talk about him on that board the same way as you talk about ryder on this board .

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01-22-2007, 06:23 PM
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yeah , they talk about him on that board the same way as you talk about ryder on this board .
Prove me wrong that what i said GENERALLY about Ryder ain't true, i don't know if it's a problem with my home town or something but everyone wants Ryder gone cause they consider him a liability in the team, especially with the youngsters ready now. Without Sheldon Souray we woudn't be 4th in the eastern conference, would Ryder gone maid that much a difference, would it made one?

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