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Brooks-RANGERS NEED SHOT OF YOUTH

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Old
01-22-2007, 12:06 PM
  #26
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Why not call up a line and replace it with the 3rd how much harm can that do. You have 3 players with a ton of chem. Not like those bottom lines are doing much anyway im pretty sure we could afford to do this for a game or two.

Still leaves us a problem with the 2nd line center hole but what better way to enject youth and a line who know how to play with each other..

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01-22-2007, 12:08 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
Its something further to add in the laundry list of poor decisions we can add to Renneys coaching tenure here with the Rangers.
Even if he was "NHL ready", if Dawes has learned some things in this year's stint in Hartford and has become a better all around player becasue of it, was that a poor decison? (BTW, I agree Renney has made some bad decisions)...

Of course, the counter arguement is that if Dawes was getting 15 mins a night in NY, he would have developed just as well or better...Maybe

Why this stuff is so fun..

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01-22-2007, 12:24 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Even if he was "NHL ready", if Dawes has learned some things in this year's stint in Hartford and has become a better all around player becasue of it, was that a poor decison? (BTW, I agree Renney has made some bad decisions)...

Of course, the counter arguement is that if Dawes was getting 15 mins a night in NY, he would have developed just as well or better...Maybe

Why this stuff is so fun..
well, i havent followed him much at all in Hartford, but from what I understand, he has taken a few steps back has he not?

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01-22-2007, 12:28 PM
  #29
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Like Brooks points out with Dawes, where would he be right now if he was given every chance that Hossa gets? I personally think that Dawes played better than Hossa while Hossa was given more minutes and slightly better linemates. Some want Dawes to be more offensive and aggressive but he was on a defensive line with guys who cannot pass and cannot shoot. They dump the puck in the zone and immediately go into a defensive mode. For all we know that is exactly what Renney asked of him. If the standard was offensive production with defensive responsibility, then how come Hossa was still playing even though it took him twice as many games as Dawes to get his first point (with Jagr by the way).

As far as the article, I think the realistic interpretation is that the management blindly trusts Schoenfield's advice about prospects. He hopes that Sather and Renney will at least have some personal information when making decisions, info that can be gathered this week. To suggest that Schoenfield is responsible for the lack of youth in NY is shortsighted. It wasn't Schoenfield that told Renney to scratch Dawes and give him 5 minutes a game. It isn't Schoenfield filling out the lineup card with Prucha on the 4th. Renney is timid. He wants safe players. He doesn't want to lose games but in the process he doesn't win them either. He needs a set in all honesty.

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01-22-2007, 12:29 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
well, i havent followed him much at all in Hartford, but from what I understand, he has taken a few steps back has he not?
He had, because he moped and sulked like a baby...But he, along with quite a few other Packers, has been playing good, complete hockey lately---Individual and teamwise...And that's what we need

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01-22-2007, 12:34 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Like Brooks points out with Dawes, where would he be right now if he was given every chance that Hossa gets? I personally think that Dawes played better than Hossa while Hossa was given more minutes and slightly better linemates. .
Does anybody KNOW where he would be? No, not really..Only opinions...Bottom line is if Dawes was used simialrly to Hossa, the better place for him was indeed Hartford where he could get so many more minutes under so many different conditions and grow as a player..

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01-22-2007, 12:35 PM
  #32
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Agreed. It's been my argument since the beginning of the year. Sneaking into the playoffs is not the goal. BUILDING a team to legitimately contend each year is the only goal. Management should know by now this team is very flawed and won't win a Cup.Youth must be played
Excellent point, spot on.

I was arguing a point with Trottier in the Jagr thread in the trade rumor forum, and that was exactly the point I was trying to convey to him.

You really couldn't have said it any better.

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01-22-2007, 12:55 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Does anybody KNOW where he would be? No, not really..Only opinions...Bottom line is if Dawes was used simialrly to Hossa, the better place for him was indeed Hartford where he could get so many more minutes under so many different conditions and grow as a player..
Fact is that Hossa has gotten more opportunities and more minutes per game dispite not performing as well as Dawes. I'm just suggesting that in his short time here he should have gotten at least as many minutes as Hossa if not more. And I am just wondering out loud how he would have acclimated to the bigs with that kind of opportunity. We can debate this all day but we both know that info can be pulled out that would support the statement that youth do not get chances until the team is forced to give them a chance (such as injury). There are hardly any examples of a youngster being given a decent look in a position that sets him up to succeed.

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01-22-2007, 01:18 PM
  #34
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Personally I'd rather leave Dubinsky and Korps down in the AHL.

However I think we are now at the point where you give a long look to Baranka and Callahan.

Both players aren't going to turn things around but they play areas the Rangers could afford to take a look at at this point.

Dawes is probably behind them if only because I think Callahan would be able to transition to the third line a little easier right now than Dawes.

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01-22-2007, 01:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Fact is that Hossa has gotten more opportunities and more minutes per game dispite not performing as well as Dawes. I'm just suggesting that in his short time here he should have gotten at least as many minutes as Hossa if not more. And I am just wondering out loud how he would have acclimated to the bigs with that kind of opportunity. We can debate this all day but we both know that info can be pulled out that would support the statement that youth do not get chances until the team is forced to give them a chance (such as injury). There are hardly any examples of a youngster being given a decent look in a position that sets him up to succeed.
ANd what I'm saying is, even if he got the minutes and opportunities of HOSSA, Hartford would still be the better place for his development...

As for the rest, quite a few kids got a shot last year and did quite well...I just don'
t think mostg of the kids that everybody clamored for were ready at the beginning of the season and got some great development time in Hartford instead--which was better for them...Now that incompetent play is sinking the Rangers, and the kids have progressed, the time is right for a few kids...

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01-22-2007, 01:30 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Personally I'd rather leave Dubinsky and Korps down in the AHL.

However I think we are now at the point where you give a long look to Baranka and Callahan.

Both players aren't going to turn things around but they play areas the Rangers could afford to take a look at at this point.

Dawes is probably behind them if only because I think Callahan would be able to transition to the third line a little easier right now than Dawes.
Agree about Dubi, but they have to do something about the C spot....Either Callahan or Dawes would be fine with me right now...

I'm leery about calling up a D-man, because with Pock playing well, I just don't think a kid will get much playing time over Pock, Rachunek,Toots,Ward, Rosy-Malik...Not saying I agree, but if they are going to be 7th, keep them in Hartford.....Also, I'm not so certain that Baranka will be recalled before Girardi, who has been the Packs best D-man for two years...

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01-22-2007, 01:40 PM
  #37
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This seams slightly revisionist to me. Prucha got jerked around for quite sometime before he was given major minutes, and then it was mostly due to Rosy's injury. Tyutin was already established and Moore and Hollweg are checkers who ofetn got 4th line minutes. Lundqvist simply blew Weekes out of the water.

This really is the problem with the Ranger's policy towards youth. Veterans are given the benefit of the doubt while kids are asked to be perfect from day one. While you never want to hand a kid a spot, it's also unfair to ask a kid to prove that he is signifigantly better than a proven veteran the first minute he steps on the ice or wait for the veteran to get injured. If a prospect is playing well enough to deserve a call up, and I don't know how anyone can say that Callahan hasn't, then he should be allowed the opertunity to earn a spot with the big team, especially when there are players infront of him that are underperforming :cough:Hall:cough:. And an opertunity doesn't meen one or two games, it meens long enough for him to get aclimated to the pace of the NHL. Asking a guy to jump from the AHL to the NHL and be perfect from the get go is unreasonable.
Xander, there are extremely few players that comes over from Europe and steps right in on a top line in the NHL. Even players like Zetterberg were used on 4th lines for a few months. Kondratiev, Prucha, Tyutin, Lundqvist, Moore and Hollweg were rookies who beat out the competition from various parts to take spots on this team last season. Renney is behind the bench, he can't play for the kids. Either they are good enough or they aren't. These 5 shouldn't count because they were too good?

I just don't get the "Ranger bias towards" youth thing. I really don't. Like have there ever been a kid here who didn't get a chance and then broke through somewhere else? Filip Novak? No. Mike Mottau? No.

All the good prospect we have had have been given a chance to play, most of them have actually been rushed to fast. Malhotra, Lundmark, York, Johnsson, Savard, Cloutier, Hlavac, Ortmayer, Kloucek, Prucha, Lundqvist, Moore, Hollweg, Tyutin and Kondratiev.

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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
I VEHEMENTLY disagree with all of this. How can ANYONE say that Dawes was given a fair chance. This is a kid who is a top 6 forward, not a bottom line grinder. They play him on the 4th line, for 6 minutes a game. what exactly do you expect from him? If im not mistaken the 1, and only 1 game where Dawes got to play with a legit offensive threat (Nylander) he scored a goal, and looked damn good all night out there.
I don't agree. I don't think he looked good. Just like I didn't think Immonen ever looked great. If you are a 58, 1-way offensive winger, and play two games on a 3rd line without once getting involved offensivly, if you aren't taking the puck up ice, if you aren't challenging d's one on one, if you aren't creating any other offense then a few quick shots, you just aren't good enough. Dawes were given a chance but weren't even close. This were right after camp. Dawes were then given a chance to sit down and collect himself for a while, and were again given a chance, still he didn't manage to contribute in thoose areas.

Its not like he were expected to score goals but couldn't finnish, or like he made a few big misstakes. He just didn't stay with the flow. He couldn't handle the tempo. For a player of Dawes stature, not beeing able to a raise the tempo is a bad grade, let alone not beeing able to keep up.

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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
Same thing with Prucha how exactly does having him on the 4th line help the team at all? if hes on the 3rd line with guys with some offensive talent, then sure, i can buy the spreading around of the offense, but youve got to have those 2 important caveats there. 1)GIVE HIM PLAYING TIME!!! 2)Put him in a position to USE his strengths.
HE HAVE BEEN GIVEN PLAYING TIME! Put him in a position to use his strength? Are there any other position on this team were he can do that besides next to Nylander and Jagr. Hell both Brad Smyth and Jeff Hamilton could use their strength in thoose positions. Prucha have been given a new chance time after time this season, he must pick it up!


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01-22-2007, 01:54 PM
  #38
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Hmm, Dubinsky and Korpikoski aren't ready now but I agree about Callahan and Baranka. At least give them an audition for a few weeks. Especially Baranka. I know hindsight is 20/20, but after watching the Rangers waste time and money on guys like Ozolinsh, Malik and Kasparaitis it's clear that Baranka deserved a shot. The Rangers just have too much money held up in bad contracts on the blueline.

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01-22-2007, 02:39 PM
  #39
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Callahan did get a chance...

in his 11 minutes of total ice time across two games, he failed to generate significant offense, only tallying 3 shots on goal and thus was deemed not fit for the NHL. Isn't that enough of a chance for a 21 year old?

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01-22-2007, 02:47 PM
  #40
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
in his 11 minutes of total ice time across two games, he failed to generate significant offense, only tallying 3 shots on goal and thus was deemed not fit for the NHL. Isn't that enough of a chance for a 21 year old?
It sure is..In today's competive NHL, if you don'ttake advantage of your opportunities, NO ICE FOR YOU! Give somebody else a shot..

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01-22-2007, 02:48 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
in his 11 minutes of total ice time across two games, he failed to generate significant offense, only tallying 3 shots on goal and thus was deemed not fit for the NHL. Isn't that enough of a chance for a 21 year old?
Respectfully, I dont think that is what happened at all. I dont think the organization thought he would stick with the big club, and I certainly dont think they were basing their decision to send him back down to Hartford on the little they saw in those 2 games. I believe that they just thought the experience, to skate and practice with the team, would be a good one for a young player.

His "cup of coffee" is completely different from a guy like Imo's, in my opinion.

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01-22-2007, 03:18 PM
  #42
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I don't agree. I don't think he looked good. Just like I didn't think Immonen ever looked great. If you are a 58, 1-way offensive winger, and play two games on a 3rd line without once getting involved offensivly, if you aren't taking the puck up ice, if you aren't challenging d's one on one, if you aren't creating any other offense then a few quick shots, you just aren't good enough. Dawes were given a chance but weren't even close. This were right after camp. Dawes were then given a chance to sit down and collect himself for a while, and were again given a chance, still he didn't manage to contribute in thoose areas.

Its not like he were expected to score goals but couldn't finnish, or like he made a few big misstakes. He just didn't stay with the flow. He couldn't handle the tempo. For a player of Dawes stature, not beeing able to a raise the tempo is a bad grade, let alone not beeing able to keep up.



Dawes had an average of about 7 minutes of ice time in those first 2 games of regular 3rd line minutes. He got 2 hots on net, playing with pretty inept partners. I dont remember exactly who his linemates where in those first 2 games, but im guessing the usual jokers are there.

so 7 minutes of ice time, over 2 games, playing with inept partners, and hes gotta move the heaven, earth and the sky in order to stay with the club. Do you have any idea how asinine that is?

How about the Devils Travis Zajac? the kid averaged 14 minutes a game in his first 2 games as a Devil. His career numbers arent even in the same league to the amount of points Dawes has put up throughout his career. It is absolutely crazy to think that Dawes got a fair chance. He didnt. I mean, you gotta put people in situations to succeed bro, you put a scorer, on a scoring line, OR with people who can play an effective offensive game. Equally you dont put a guy like Blair Betts on a scoring line, as his level of skill will pull the others around him down. Its the same exact thing. I cant believe you are making this argument!

Quote:


HE HAVE BEEN GIVEN PLAYING TIME! Put him in a position to use his strength? Are there any other position on this team were he can do that besides next to Nylander and Jagr. Hell both Brad Smyth and Jeff Hamilton could use their strength in thoose positions. Prucha have been given a new chance time after time this season, he must pick it up!

Are you kidding me?! how many games was it before he was relegated to the 4th line?

How about we look at it this way.. How many times has he played more than 14 minutes? Lets keep in mind that Travis Zajac, a ROOKIE, is averaging in NJ about 16:30 per game.

Petr Prucha has played ~14 minutes or more exactly 15 times this year. he has played ~12 minutes or less 21 times. less than 10 minutes 6 times.

Id say hes played about 30% of his games on either the 3rd or 4th lines, at least.

How about Travis Zajac?
~14 minutes or more: 38 times!
12 minutes or less: ONCE! where he played 5:50


So, while everyone gushes over Zajac who gets regular minutes, with regular linemates lets compare another thing, results.

Zajac: 46 GP 8 Goals 15 Assists 23 points

Prucha: 46 GP 10 G 9A 19 Points


Look at those numbers... Look at a first place team playing a player regular minutes putting up similar numbers to Prucha, and look at Prucha, getting shuffled all over the lineup, avergaing probably 4 minutes per game LESS than Zajac, and tell me your argument holds any kind of water.

It is an ineptitude of coaching, and a mind boggeling lack of consistency by Tom Renney that has given the illusion to everyone that Petr Prucha is having an awful year.
I just dont see it. I think, for the position hes been put in, hes having a pretty damn good year.

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01-22-2007, 03:28 PM
  #43
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Zajac is more of a puck mover that shooter. The Coaching staff has encouraged him to be a defense-first forward.

However, he has proven himself in this regard lately, and hopefully opens it up in the run to playoffs. The Devils will need both their top 2 lines going to win a Cup this year.

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01-22-2007, 03:32 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
in his 11 minutes of total ice time across two games, he failed to generate significant offense, only tallying 3 shots on goal and thus was deemed not fit for the NHL. Isn't that enough of a chance for a 21 year old?





I disagree here. How can you justify that in eleven minutes of mostly 4th line time Callahan should have shown more to prove that he's NHL worthy? How about 11 games? jeez how about 11 minutes PER game? if those were the cases then I could see your point but from what I saw of him, (I belileve against Buffalo or Ottawa)while he didn't take 20 shots on goal he played a fearless North South game and brought the energy and fire that has been missing from this team on most nights..To me that's atleast somewhere to start. To me that's doing more to warrant some additional ice time then say Hall or Ward have earned...Just my opinion..

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01-22-2007, 03:33 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post


It is an ineptitude of coaching, and a mind boggeling lack of consistency by Tom Renney that has given the illusion to everyone that Petr Prucha is having an awful year.
I just dont see it. I think, for the position hes been put in, hes having a pretty damn good year.
I agree that Renney has mismanaged and hindered Prucha this season, but lets not exaggerate how good Prucha is doing or let him off the hook for his weaker play this year....

Number/stats aside, to me Prucha has not been as good on defense, his mental game, backchecking, and both creating and taking advantage of offensive opportunites..Of course, some of this has to do with linemate, but some has to do with Prucha himself...

ANd if you want to talk about numbers, players should improve as the season goes along....Over the lastg 30 GAMES Prucha has 5G 3A and is a -10..which is very far from damn good...

All this being said, I'm all for giving Prucha a run of games on the top 2 lines because I think he's alot better than he has shown this year...

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01-22-2007, 03:39 PM
  #46
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McRanger...

Callahan wasn't called up for a 'cup of coffee', or at least that's my opinion. My opinion was that here's a kid that many thought would be a third/fourth liner, but showed at the AHL level that he could score goals (and he's still quite young, despite being an overager the year before). I'm guessing they were hoping he'd show offense on a fourth line in limited time because this was what this team desparately needed, offense from lines other than the top two lines. I'd further guess that Callahan didn't show the ability to be that guy right away and thus wasn't the immediate answer tot he problems and he was sent down after 11 NHL minutes and three shots on goal.

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01-22-2007, 03:39 PM
  #47
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Sorry james...

you missed my sarcasm... If they were going to give him a shot, they should've given him a shot, especially at a time when Hall wasn't producing on a third line and playing 10+ minutes.

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01-22-2007, 03:45 PM
  #48
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My fault Fletch

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you missed my sarcasm... If they were going to give him a shot, they should've given him a shot, especially at a time when Hall wasn't producing on a third line and playing 10+ minutes.




I'm kinda new to this forum and have yet to grasp the quirks of individual posters yet..I apoligize for that, if that's the case then I agree totally with the point you were making..

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01-22-2007, 03:48 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
I agree that Renney has mismanaged and hindered Prucha this season, but lets not exaggerate how good Prucha is doing or let him off the hook for his weaker play this year....

Number/stats aside, to me Prucha has not been as good on defense, his mental game, backchecking, and both creating and taking advantage of offensive opportunites..Of course, some of this has to do with linemate, but some has to do with Prucha himself...

ANd if you want to talk about numbers, players should improve as the season goes along....Over the lastg 30 GAMES Prucha has 5G 3A and is a -10..which is very far from damn good...

All this being said, I'm all for giving Prucha a run of games on the top 2 lines because I think he's alot better than he has shown this year...
Exactly, and its been in the later games where hes been regulated more and more to the bottom 2 lines. Is it any surprise his numbers are poor playing with Ryan Hollweg and Colton Orr at times?

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01-22-2007, 03:58 PM
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Exactly, and its been in the later games where hes been regulated more and more to the bottom 2 lines. Is it any surprise his numbers are poor playing with Ryan Hollweg and Colton Orr at times?
He hasn't always been with Hollweg and Orr and, in fact, has been with many players, all with the same weak results..Still, I agree his numbers are somewaht influienced by his linemates, but his overall play shouldn't be...And his overall play has been pretty weak and at times mentally and physically lazy....ANd just because he's young doesn't mean he shouldn't be held accountable (along with Renney and the line concoctions)

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