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Sather must decide: Is dealing Girardi best for Rangers?

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Old
01-07-2014, 04:17 PM
  #351
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
No it's Pet Shop Boys.
Nope. Goes way back before they did it.

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01-07-2014, 04:29 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Nope. Goes way back before they did it.
Damn, you're old.


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01-07-2014, 04:33 PM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The taking two or three steps back is darn easy.

How do you take four five steps forward in the coming years? Nobody is giving even a remotely plausible scenario for how to accomplish that in four five years.
Nothing is automatic, my friend.
Everything has risks.

You are weighing the risk of keeping assets who should deteriorate over time versus the risk of replacing, and if you replace with the wrong assets, even if they are in better condition, you go backwards.

It's a crapshoot; our consolation is we are mostly picking good lately, so we should use that to our advantage.

The Black Hawks were beyond terribad horrible, then got Towes and Kane and a couple of asset like Sharp and a few others fell into place and --- voila! They can win/compete and still draft guys like Beach (bustimundo so far) and McNeil (not a bust but disappointing and behind schedule). Why? One, they also draft guys like Saad. Two, they make smart decisions. They remind me of the 49ers of yesteryear. They knew when to trade for Garrison Hearst, when to deal him, and for how much both times.

It's lunacy to expect Sather and even his heir apparent to match the late truly great Bill Walsh, greatest GM ever IMO.

But we have Kreider and McDonagh, not to mention Hank, and a coupla others. We just need to convert a certain amount of actual assets into a larger number of greater potential quality assets.

You add enough, then percentages work in your favor (subject to certain assumptions like your GM is not a total idiot who gets the draft wrong EVERY time).

It's not easy, certainly not automatic, but it is do-able

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01-07-2014, 04:40 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Nothing is automatic, my friend.
Everything has risks.

You are weighing the risk of keeping assets who should deteriorate over time versus the risk of replacing, and if you replace with the wrong assets, even if they are in better condition, you go backwards.

It's a crapshoot; our consolation is we are mostly picking good lately, so we should use that to our advantage.

The Black Hawks were beyond terribad horrible, then got Towes and Kane and a couple of asset like Sharp and a few others fell into place and --- voila! They can win/compete and still draft guys like Beach (bustimundo so far) and McNeil (not a bust but disappointing and behind schedule). Why? One, they also draft guys like Saad. Two, they make smart decisions. They remind me of the 49ers of yesteryear. They knew when to trade for Garrison Hearst, when to deal him, and for how much both times.

It's lunacy to expect Sather and even his heir apparent to match the late truly great Bill Walsh, greatest GM ever IMO.

But we have Kreider and McDonagh, not to mention Hank, and a coupla others. We just need to convert a certain amount of actual assets into a larger number of greater potential quality assets.

You add enough, then percentages work in your favor (subject to certain assumptions like your GM is not a total idiot who gets the draft wrong EVERY time).

It's not easy, certainly not automatic, but it is do-able
Your most reasonable post in a long time.

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01-07-2014, 04:47 PM
  #355
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Should pack the bags for everyone not under 26 years old ..... including Lundqvist ...

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Old
01-07-2014, 05:11 PM
  #356
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Give me that Vatanen kid plus a 1st and im pretty happy.

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01-07-2014, 05:12 PM
  #357
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How about Dougie Hamilton?

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Old
01-07-2014, 05:30 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
How about Dougie Hamilton?
I think they consider him a cornerstone.

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Old
01-07-2014, 05:31 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
This is a point I was going to make with Prust being the prefect example. Nobody wanted to pay Prust because the Rangers would replace him with cheaper options...and, unfortunately, we got what we paid for in Asham, Halpern, Pyatt, etc...

You may be able to slot Zuc on the 2nd line RW...but where do you make up Callahan's lost goals? This team has needed more goal scorers for years and now we're going to get rid of our 2nd best scorer. And let's talk about grit. Callahan's one of the few forwards who plays a gritty, physical style. The last 2 seasons Callahan led the team in hits. Last season he had 154 and only one other forward topped 100. So now this team that hasn't been able to find goal scorers and has been too soft is going to get rid of it's second best goal-scorer and best hitter...and replacing that production isn't any cause for concern.

BTW - Over the last 3 seasons, the difference in goals scored between Callahan and Nash hasn't been as great as you might think. Nash has scored 30, 21 and 9 (counting yesterday's game). While Callahan has scored 29, 16 and 7.
Callahan's production has been good over the last several seasons, even this season he is one or two multi-point games from getting on that 50+ point pace. Last season he was on pace for around 60 points.

So people want to give that up, along with a guy who kill penalities one of the better in the league I might add.

Also, people need to rewatch the plays he made that led up to that PP goal, it is the work efforts he puts mixed with the talent he has that makes him an all around player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
No one is saying Callahan is a bad player, just that he is going to break down as he gets older. They have holes, but whether they hold onto him or not, they are not going to compete for The Cup. Get some assets, let another team overpay, develop the young players they bring in.




I see some d-men who may be available who can help fill some holes. Teams will also have players available. Sometimes the buy low candidates are the way to go in order to get by for half a season while a young player gets their feet wet (Allen/McIlrath).
Which is why he should not get more than 5 or 6 years. You'd be trying to fill two big holes if he was gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
This team is a lot closer to a Cup in the next 5 years with Callahan than without.

Totally agree.

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Old
01-07-2014, 05:39 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The taking two or three steps back is darn easy.

How do you take four five steps forward in the coming years? Nobody is giving even a remotely plausible scenario for how to accomplish that in four five years.
Very good question.
I have no answer because I just don't think it will happen with the Rangers.
I find it hard to believe that they would give Hank the extension if they had a 4-5 year rebuild.
I advocate trading Girardi and Cally if the price is right, but the idea is a quick retool that should take no more than a couple of years.
Another perplexing point is people are railing against Sather every other post but are willing to trust him with this 4-5 year rebuild and the cap space created.

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01-07-2014, 05:48 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The taking two or three steps back is darn easy.

How do you take four five steps forward in the coming years?
I don't know. But committing UFA dollars to Callahan and Girardi for 6 years is a sure way to take a number of steps back.

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Old
01-07-2014, 06:04 PM
  #362
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Although I'd flip them both, I don't see either leaving. Its just a matter of how much for how long.

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Old
01-07-2014, 06:08 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
In today's NHL they are worth more than that. here's some recent UFA or UFA to-be contracts:

Clarkson $5.25M for 7 years;
Weiss $4.9M for 5 years;
Brent Burns $5.76 for 5 years;
Clowe $4.85 for 5 years;
Bouwmeester $5.4M for 5 years; and
Streit (35 yr old) $5.25M for 4 years
Yeah and how are those deals working out for those teams?

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Old
01-07-2014, 06:10 PM
  #364
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A big question is would it be better to hold onto your top tier players and find new middle of the lineup players from within or acquisition? Should we cash in on Stralman being a top 4 player as a rental? Boyle should be traded. He most likely goes unsigned by the team. How about trading Staal? Him and Stralman will make up 7 million in cap next season. Is it worth that much to retain them and think of the assets coming back? These questions should not be made only for Callahan and Girardi. The entire roster should be under the microscope. How about trading Pouliot if his performance continues? If he is not to be retained, why not trade him? Same for Dom Moore. You could replace those players easier next season as opposed to Girardi and Callahan

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Old
01-07-2014, 06:11 PM
  #365
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Honestly how big step back would trading Callahan and Girardi be even in the short-term?

Girardi has picked up his game compared to the first quarter of the season, but still hasn't been performing that well. Most of his good defensive plays are made when he created the mess himself by bad decisions and/or puck handling. As long as we get a competent D-man in return, or can do a separate trade to acquire one (say Tom Gilbert) we won't be losing that much. But there is some risk in trading Girardi considering our lack of RDs.

Callahan isn't doing much 5v5 (never really has) and has been replaced on special teams. He has been superseded by Kreider and Pouliot in front of the net on the PP and is only on the third PK pairing. Removing him from the lineup honestly wouldn't hurt us that much at all. I think Callahan is a better player than Girardi, but I honestly believe that trading him wouldn't affect us much. Miller can take his place on the 3rd line. It pains me to say, but Callahan has somehow become redundant on our team.

An example of a lineup without them:

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Kredier-Richards-Zuccarello
Brassard-Miller-Pouliot
Boyle-Moore-Carcillo (Dorsett when healthy)

McDonagh-RD/Strålman
Staal-Strålman/RD
Del Zotto-Moore

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01-07-2014, 06:11 PM
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
This team is a lot closer to a Cup in the next 5 years with Callahan than without.
Not at the $$$ he's going to get.

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01-07-2014, 06:12 PM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Honestly how big step back would trading Callahan and Girardi be even in the short-term?

We'll miss Girardi a lot more than we'll miss Callahan.

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Old
01-07-2014, 06:19 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
We'll miss Girardi a lot more than we'll miss Callahan.
Yeah, we would definitely need to acquire some sort of immediate replacement for Girardi. We wouldn't actually need to do that for Callahan.

I still maintain that the best case scenario is to trade them both and somehow package assets to get Byfuglien who is exactly what we need on our blue line.

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01-07-2014, 06:31 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
How about Dougie Hamilton?
According to Sam and Joe he is the second coming of Bobby Orr. Those two have a ridiculous man-crush on him.

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01-07-2014, 07:04 PM
  #370
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From SBOB

"It's the inherent short-sightedness of this front office. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

If there was a plan, it could be a perfect scenario to complete recreate the entire organization:

1) Give Torts one more year. If he fails to meet standards, he's gone. A new GM hires his own coach.

The the number of FAs on this team at the end of the season allows for a great opportunity to jump-start a rebuild — both in terms of trade bait and potential cap space."

From Baby Punisher

"I would not call this a rebuild. You trade these guys now to re-tool & keep the farm system going & you give the team some more trade chips come next seasons deadline if we need to acquire missing pieces for a playoff push.

I know people, myself included look at Sathers free agent signing record & get crazy with it, with regards to the cap it is just money & Dolan has plenty off it. However If you look at the overall body of Sathers work since the first lockout it's really not bad. Playoffs every year except 2010, eastern conference finals 2 years ago. I think we got a lot out of the players that the team did rebuild with & we have some guys coming up.

Trading Girardi for a first rounder & a prospect would be huge considering he wasn't even a draft pick & he has played excellent hockey for us the past 8 plus seasons. That's a huge success story.

Trade these guys & any other pending UFA that will bring a return."



Ok, I can see some of the logic and points that you guys make.

Here's the thing: The Rangers have been making trades and acquisitions for longer than any of us cares to remember.

Where has any of it gotten this franchise? We've got one Cup in the last 74 years.

I get the whole impending FA situation. We can't keep em all.

It's like the whole Nash thing. It's gonna happen. We all know it. So, if there gonna do it then they better do it right this time. They maximize it.

They need to focus and blending skill and grit.....god it just sounds like a broken record. Whatever they do they have to focus on building a core and keeping the prospect pool stacked.

It's amazing how quickly they managed to deplete that prospect pool.

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01-07-2014, 07:33 PM
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post

Here's the thing: The Rangers have been making trades and acquisitions for longer than any of us cares to remember.

Where has any of it gotten this franchise? We've got one Cup in the last 74 years.
Well, for starters, for 74 years, the Rangers have packaged younger assets for aging/past their prime players. Whether that be by trade or by FA acquisition, these guys have also been massively overpaid.

This plan would be the polar opposite. It'd aim to replenish the organization stables.

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01-07-2014, 08:08 PM
  #372
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The Rangers have had two GM's in the last 25 years.

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Old
01-07-2014, 08:18 PM
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
This team is a lot closer to a Cup in the next 5 years with Callahan than without.
In five years, Callahan is a lot closer to needing a walker and knee reconstruction than he is to winning a cup here in NY.


If you think a 33 year old Richards looks worn out, wait till you see a 34 year old callahan.

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01-07-2014, 08:19 PM
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonsniper View Post
In five years, Callahan is a lot closer to needing a walker and knee reconstruction than he is to winning a cup here in NY.


If you think a 33 year old Richards looks worn out, wait till you see a 34 year old callahan.
So much this.

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01-07-2014, 08:21 PM
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonsniper View Post
In five years, Callahan is a lot closer to needing a walker and knee reconstruction than he is to winning a cup here in NY.


If you think a 33 year old Richards looks worn out, wait till you see a 34 year old callahan.
This is absolutely 100% speculation stated as fact.

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