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Trade Thread Part XI: New year...no trades.

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01-08-2014, 09:03 AM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Nightshift View Post
Brian Boyle and Dom Moore are not bring back 2nd and 3rd round draft picks. Man o man...
Why not? We got Boyle for a 3rd, back when he was looking like a complete bust and had yet to make the NHL full time. He's certainly improved his stock since then. He is absolutely worth a 2nd.

Moore has played very well of late. A 3rd round pick is very possible. Just because you think these players suck, doesn't mean they don't have value to GMs and coaches.

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01-08-2014, 09:03 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
What's funny is that before last year, Sather was great at not giving away valuable assets for what he wanted at the deadline.

Prucha, Dawes and Kalinin for Morris.

Rozsival for Wolski

Minor deals for some added depth.

Clowe was the first real rental he spent quality assets on.
The problem with Clowe is they did the deal in the wrong year. It may well have been worth it in 11-12. If he could have managed that trade in 11-12 instead of 12-13--the Rangers might have made it into the Cup finals. The only guy we added in 11-12 was John Scott and in the first series against the Senators there was a debate over whether to play the newly signed Kreider or Scott because the Sens were giving us fits with their goaltending and physical play. Clowe could have been a big help--an antidote for Chris Neil, Matt Carkner and Zenon Konopka. Likewise the bigger Caps wingers in the second series against the Caps and the bigger NJ wingers in the conference finals when the whole thing collapsed.

Rangers did not tweak the 11-12 team going into the playoffs and it eventually killed them. Instead they tweaked the much weaker 12-13 team and went nowhere with that. Their chance was 11-12. It might be their last good chance for a while.

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01-08-2014, 09:05 AM
  #553
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Had a dream last night Boyle got traded to the Hawks for a 2nd. Hmm...
knowing the Rangers luck it'll be announced in a few mins and then he will score the game winner..


I had a dream Rangers traded Callahan to the Hawks at the deadline for Jeremy Morin, Joakim Nordstrom and Ryan Hartman

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01-08-2014, 09:08 AM
  #554
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Why not? We got Boyle for a 3rd, back when he was looking like a complete bust and had yet to make the NHL full time. He's certainly improved his stock since then. He is absolutely worth a 2nd.

Moore has played very well of late. A 3rd round pick is very possible. Just because you think these players suck, doesn't mean they don't have value to GMs and coaches.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but those guys are not worth anywhere near that.

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01-08-2014, 09:27 AM
  #555
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but those guys are not worth anywhere near that.
What are you basing your opinion on? It's clearly not on facts.

Moore's been traded numerous times for 2nd round picks. Gaustad was traded for a 1st who's comparable to Boyle. Look at deadline trades. 2nd/3rd is exactly what they'd bring.

Ryan ****ing Hollweg was traded for a 5th.

You don't know what you're talking about. So stop pretending.

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01-08-2014, 09:53 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
What are you basing your opinion on? It's clearly not on facts.

Moore's been traded numerous times for 2nd round picks. Gaustad was traded for a 1st who's comparable to Boyle. Look at deadline trades. 2nd/3rd is exactly what they'd bring.

Ryan ****ing Hollweg was traded for a 5th.

You don't know what you're talking about. So stop pretending.
Gaustad was a massive overpayment. I base my opinion on watching them actually play. Boyle is a tremendously flawed player and Dom Moore is a decent faceoff man at best who will be 34.

Thanks for the insult. I expected nothing less.

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01-08-2014, 09:57 AM
  #557
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I doubt they trade him due to so many factors, but if we could eek Etem out of Anaheim in a deal for Girardi, I'd be on top of the world.

Also, Boyle would absolutely get at least a 2nd in a trade. I think he's more valuable to the Rangers than that though. Ew, I can't believe those words came out of my mouth...erm...my hands?

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01-08-2014, 10:04 AM
  #558
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I doubt they trade him due to so many factors, but if we could eek Etem out of Anaheim in a deal for Girardi, I'd be on top of the world.

Also, Boyle would absolutely get at least a 2nd in a trade. I think he's more valuable to the Rangers than that though. Ew, I can't believe those words came out of my mouth...erm...my hands?

Etem, Beleksey and Rakell for Girardi and Boyle??

would this be fair for both teams?

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01-08-2014, 10:09 AM
  #559
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Whatever Boyle's worth, its not $1.7 million for 4th line center.
reminds me of when betts left via FA, ended up signed elsewhere for way else than he wanted from nyr. I see that happening with boyle.

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01-08-2014, 10:15 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Nightshift View Post
Gaustad was a massive overpayment. I base my opinion on watching them actually play. Boyle is a tremendously flawed player and Dom Moore is a decent faceoff man at best who will be 34.

Thanks for the insult. I expected nothing less.
You're still wrong. A lot people base their opinion on that and I would ask if they actually do watch them play.

A second and third is reasonable.

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01-08-2014, 10:16 AM
  #561
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The alternative to take three steps back and pray on four hell marys to go your way to be able to take four steps forward, is the following.

THE NO CHEATING OPTION

1. Fix the defense

We are 10th in shots against, but we are 21th in goals against 5 on 5. Last year we were tied 1st in goals against. 11/12 we were 3rd in goals against (Vancouver was 4th). 10/11 we were 5th in goals against. In 09/10 were were 7th in goals against 5 on 5. 08/09 we were 6th. And so forth.

I know, I blamed Torts for his transition game and now I am blaming AV. But I am just calling it like I see it, I thought Torts transition game was horrible and I think our man-man experiment is working horrible right now too. I really do.

Early in the season we gave up goals because we screwed up in the transition game. But that is not the case any more. We are just constantly blowing our coverge in our own zone. We rarely seem to be in good positions to block shots and pick up rebounds. we loose players in absolute no-go areas on a regular basis. We are just running around all over the place way way way too much.

I see no reason what-so-ever for why we can't be top 10 defensively. We were No 1 last season with the exact same roster. We now have a transition game, that can cost us a few more goals. But not so the jump is to go from 1 to 21, maybe 1 to 7th overall or whatever. Very few of the better teams are playing some version of man-man defense, and we seem to try to play some kind of NBA version of it that just looks absurd at times.

McD, Staal, Giradi and co has potential to form the basis of a very strong blue line and infront of Hank we should have one of the better D's in this league. We had just that under Renney and Torts, I just can't see what have changed now.

Fix it!

2. Make Nash work

You make your own bed. You just can't always go with the opt out-option. Nash might not become the franchise player we hoped for, but at least make sure to get scoring from him. He is on pace to score 28 goals and 56 pts. Last year he was a PPG player.

We are coaching him. We are training him. We are providing him with his linemates. We are deciding how he should play. I don't care if Nash is to be blamed or not. You just can't on a regular basis bring in players and not get production from them.

We can't opt out yet again.

Make Nash work!

3. Turn McD into a Norris candidate

McD's development this year has been remarkable. We have started to ask him to move the puck and be involved in the offense instead of just throwing the puck away, and he is starting to look like a top 10 D in this league. Keep developing him into a top 3 D! Ask for him to make the passes every shift. To learn to master the blueline every shift. The defense is already there. A little more strength will also come with age.

4. Develop Kreider, JT Miller & Co!

Kreider is really finding his way in NY. JT Miller might not have the consistency yet, but he is past showing flashes of belonging. He has for full periods played really good hockey in this league, and he is still only 20 y/o.

Fast made this team out of camp, while doing so he was a full year younger than Callahan was for example when Cally was one of the first cuts. O.L. will need some time to develop in HFD, but I think he is coming along. McIlrath will also need time, but he is improving for sure. Skjei got some gods for sure. We have some depth on the farm and some assets for sure.

College kids and European UFAs are often a bit hesitant to sign with the best teams since it seems unlikely that they will make it right away, we shouldn't have that problem. We should have a good shot on the next J Schultz or Zucc that becomes available.

We have a few spots open in the coming years. Make them count.

5. Make sure that Hagelin, Brassard & co. turn into players that count, every shift

Hagelin and Brassard are examples of very good hockey players that right now doesn't seem to be able to establish themselves as 2nd line scorers in this league. Instantly we are starting to hear talks about dumping them.

The best teams in this league always however manage to make these guys really count. Filpulla for a long time was a 3rd line player for Detroit and definitely played a big part in them making it to the SCF's two times and winning the Cup once. Det regulary had Hudler on a 4th line. Bolland in Chi became a pro after a 2.2 PPG season in the OHL. He was much more of a finesse player when he came up. 6'0 175 lbs.

Brassard is a very talented hockey player. Not many teams in this league got a Brassard in their system to spare out side the top 2 line. Had Brassard been drafted by Chicago, I am sure everyone would be in love with him. Ohhhhh they are so good can even play Brassard on a 3rd line. Eventually I am sure Brassard would have turned into a 2nd lineer like Pat Sharp. I have a hard time seing Pat Sharp becoming a star had he stayed in Philly. Sharp was a year older than Brassard is today when he scored 35 pts in 80 games for them. The best teams get the luxury to be consistent with what they do. We can't compete with that with a wear and tear mentality. We can't expect to just have a Pat Sharp fall into our laps by taking a step back and getting some C-tier guy that a team is willing to spare, we have a heck of a talent in Brassard. Does play a style right now that fits a role open on a contender? No. Make him play that style then.

6. Tweak the roster

We got a roster hand picked for Torts and AV has a very diffrent philosopy. The diffrence is clear with a kid like Pouliot, I am sure we all can agree that Pouliot is miles ahead of Torts favorits Asham, Powe and co.

We need more puck moving ability from the blueline. We need players that are more comfortable with the puck. Given that we now spend time in the attacking zone, we could use a sniper. A PF woudn't hurt (wouldn't have hurt under Torts either...).

See what you can find on the trade market. Look for hockey trades. Hockey trades always seem to be the last option for this team and its fans. Its always 4 for 1 pickups of stars or dumps or whatever. We have 20 roster players and 3-4 guys on the farm. Deal a player that is good for another player that is good but fits you better.

7. Pray on -- one -- hell mary going your way

Be it a trade, pick, unsigned kid, UFA signing or whatever, our core lacks a bit of "it"-factor that we must find. By just fixing our defense, going back to being a team that at least is very hard to score goals on, we should definitely have a roster that really can support players and let a creative guy do his work.

Vancouver got Näslund for Stojanov. Philly got Giroux with a late first. Tampa got MSL for free and BR with a late round pick and Dan Boyle almost for free. Detroit picked Z and Dats with 7th rounders. Franzen was a late round pick. Boston signed Chara as a UFA. Ottawa got E Karlsson with a mid-first. NJD picked up Kovalchuk for Oduya, Bergfors and an avg prospect. Duncan Keith is a 2nd rounder that Chicago developed. Calgary made sure to get a real grade A prospect when they dealt Joe N, Jarome Iginla. Ottawa picked up Daniel Alfredsson with a 6th round pick. Teams that made it to the SCF's with some core players that they got real cheap. Sj is a long time contender and got Jumbo Joe for Marco Sturm, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart.

Boston built their entire team with out-side of the 1st round picks and never had top picks in their core. Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand and Krejci. 2nd-3rd round picks...

If we run this org really well, accomplish a lot of things that are set out above, and somehow can find a player that really comes here and thrives, you know, say a Giroux like steal that excels on a top line with Nash and Kreider and pot like 90 pts or whatever, while we have tweaked the roster some by say picking up a younger right shooting PMD that can grow into this team, we could certainly be a contender. We would be really strong in all areas.

I am not saying that we should not consider real hard whether to deal G and Cally or buy out Richards. But I am just not at all sold on the thinking that if the current roster we have now the way they play right now won't win the cup, lets just take three four steps backwards and play the lottery again approch. That's opting out and more of the same as we always try to do in NY. We have assets on this roster and opertunity's are always there. Its tougher when more players are getting trade restrictions in their contarcts, but vets can agree to be traded. If its a trade that really make sense, we have assets to give up.


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01-08-2014, 10:26 AM
  #562
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Boyle would definitely fetch at least a 2nd from a contending team and Moore would fetch a 3rd.

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01-08-2014, 10:27 AM
  #563
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I don't see how that's any different than what others are proposing, Ola. It still boils down to hoping that a lot of things break right for a lot of different players.

Nash is 30. He's not going to suddenly change his game to fit whatever we tell him to do. He's not a self motivator and I don't think AV is the kind of coach who will motivate him. He's played his best hockey under whip crackers like Tortorella and Hitchcock.

McDonagh is going to be an elite defender in this league, but I don't think being "Norris caliber" is going to make or break the team. I think he could very well win one, but he's a non-issue, IMO.

If we can hedge our best on developing our prospects, what's the harm in bringing in a few more? We're waiting for Miller, Lindberg, etc. already, so why can we wait for a couple more at the same time?

Hoping that Brassard is going to turn into a consistent player at 25/26 is a pipe dream. Patrick Sharp is one of the most consistent players in the league at both ends of the ice. Brassard is non-existent in the defensive zone, and inconsistent at best in the offensive zone. He is what he is. Had he been developed somewhere else, that might have been different, but it's too late for that now.

I don't know. Seems to me that your plan is to stick with what we have and hope for the best with that group. I don't think that's anymore of a sure bet than it is to jettison some players for new blood and emphasize what has really worked for us. I.e., amateur scouting.

Also, it's "Hail Mary" not "hell mary".

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01-08-2014, 10:30 AM
  #564
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1. Easier said than done. Injuries, regression and a new system have hurt the old core. That's what changed. Staal and Girardi might not be the fit they once were here. DZ is being forced out.

2. Nash has worked here. Nash will work better if surrounded by the right players. Most of this team is not the right players.

3. McDonagh is a Norris defenseman.

4. Kreider and Miller are developing fine.

5. So turn Brassard in to something he is not and will never be? Okay. Hagelin is that player already most nights.

6. This roster is not a tweak away.

7. Praying? Yeah that sounds like a solid plan.

You don't want them to play the lottery with the first round, and instead would rather we pray and dig gems out of the second and third round while waiting for a team not as good as you think it is to become better. Sounds good.

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01-08-2014, 10:36 AM
  #565
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Gaustad was a massive overpayment. I base my opinion on watching them actually play. Boyle is a tremendously flawed player and Dom Moore is a decent faceoff man at best who will be 34.

Thanks for the insult. I expected nothing less.
Massive overpayment? Ok.

What about Moore being traded numerous times for 2nd's?

You base your opinion on watching them play? I base my opinions on the same thing, but I go a step further. I actually pay attention to what players are traded for. I have an understanding of the trade market. I'm using previous trades as a benchmark.

What are you using besides your opinion? Absolutely nothing. Sorry, but you're wrong.

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01-08-2014, 10:42 AM
  #566
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Gaustad was a massive overpayment. I base my opinion on watching them actually play. Boyle is a tremendously flawed player and Dom Moore is a decent faceoff man at best who will be 34.
Can you explain to me how Boyle is a "tremendously flawed" player?

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01-08-2014, 10:42 AM
  #567
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I'm sorry, but if you have a team filled out with players with the big reputations like Girardi, J.Moore, Brassard, Callahan, MDZ, Nash, Richards, Lundqvist, McDonagh, Staal, Stepan, Kreider and Zuccarello and all you can do is play .500 hockey at max, something is seriously wrong with the team or just the fact that the players individually are overrated.

The issue is that, you can't keep having them play at the same level, while showing little signs of improvement.

On the other hand is another issue, how many more roster fixups will Sather make? None of his teams will ever gel.

Pretty tough situation going on with the Rangers at the moment.
It's like the opposite of 2011-12... this team is worse than the sum of its parts. But you are right, I think some of our players are overrated or are declining.

Sather has created quite the conundrum once again. Most of the rosters he puts together and the players he chooses to build around are flawed to begin with, which results in an inevitable overhaul. While this roster clearly isn't getting the job done, odds are the next roster he constructs won't either. The man just needs to retire and let Gorton or someone else make the big decisions.

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01-08-2014, 10:42 AM
  #568
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Nash is 30. He's not going to suddenly change his game to fit whatever we tell him to do. He's not a self motivator and I don't think AV is the kind of coach who will motivate him. He's played his best hockey under whip crackers like Tortorella and Hitchcock.
Yeah, but you know. How many times was Kovalchuk a healthy scratch for NJ? 2-3?

Kovalchuk scored 60 pts for NJ in 80 games and everyone really tore his game apart. The year after he scores 83 in 77 and carries them alone to the SCF's. They made him work.

Nash is a freak of nature, but he is not a great player on the PP. If he was that, he could have become a franchise player. But I just don't think we should give up on him, go like ahh another one and then let him slip away and turn into a worthless player or give him away. I don't at all think its impossible to turn Nash into a very valuble 35 goal scorer who will force teams to adjust to him to get match ups etc, provided that we can get through to him, that we can give him a good environment, use him really well etc.

Its like with Brassard. Look at Pat Sharp in Chicago. Philly gave up on him and dealt him with Eric Meloche for Matt Ellison and a 3rd round selection in 2006. Sharp was not good his first year in Chicago, 35 pts in 82 games. He was a small one-way forward. You won't find many talented players pass through organizations like Chicago's, Detroit's, NJ's, Pittsburgh's, Boston's and so forth, without them making that talent count. Be it Sharpe, Pascal Dupuis, Versteeg, Ryder and so forth and so forth. Make Brassard count. Make Nash count.

Quote:
Also, it's "Hail Mary" not "hell mary".
lol

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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
1. Easier said than done. Injuries, regression and a new system have hurt the old core. That's what changed. Staal and Girardi might not be the fit they once were here.
I see no reason for why Staal or Girardi can't adopt. I think Girardi is dramatically much better now than 30 games ago under AV. Staal has the ability, but 3.5 years of not passing the puck has hurt him.

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2. Nash has worked here. Nash will work better if surrounded by the right players. Most of this team is not the right players.
To a big extent this is also a process. Nash needs to learn his teammates and his teammates needs to learn him. Getting a PMD could certainly help him alot too. Nash himself also must play better, he has not handled the puck well lately. Definitely has no confidence etc.

I mean, if we can't make Nash work in NY, who could we make work? The 1st overall pick that we get when we tank? Is that your plan? What's saying that our teammates won't fit that 1st overall pick either or that the kid won't work hard here?

Ailurophile, to some extent you just make your own bed in this league. You gotta realize that.

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5. So turn Brassard in to something he is not and will never be? Okay. Hagelin is that player already most nights.
Look at Pat Sharp in Chicago. Philly gave up on him and dealt him with Eric Meloche for Matt Ellison and a 3rd round selection in 2006. Sharp was not good his first year in Chicago, 35 pts in 82 games. He was a small one-way forward. You won't find many talented players pass through organizations like Chicago's, Detroit's, NJ's, Pittsburgh's, Boston's and so forth, without them making that talent count. Be it Sharpe, Pascal Dupuis, Versteeg, Ryder and so forth and so forth. Make Brassard count. Make Nash count.

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6. This roster is not a tweak away.
I never said that either. But it can certainly become better with a tweak or two. Hockey trades. A lot of teams have improved a great deal with a 1 for 1 trade here and there. I like several players on this roster, but a 1 for 1 deal involving say Strålman, Hagelin, JT Miller, or someone like that really really make sense for us, do it.

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7. Praying? Yeah that sounds like a solid plan.

You don't want them to play the lottery with the first round, and instead would rather we pray and dig gems out of the second and third round while waiting for a team not as good as you think it is to become better. Sounds good.
Well, all I am seeing are people suggesting this x4.

You gotta take a step backwards to take two step forward.

How are we not only replacing Girardi and Callahan, but then taking the additional step forward?

LATE 1ST ROUND PICKS, B-TIER PROSPECTS, KUKLACHEV, VAATANEN, J MORROW!!!!!!!!!!!


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01-08-2014, 10:47 AM
  #569
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Boyle would definitely fetch at least a 2nd from a contending team and Moore would fetch a 3rd.
I am all for moving both out for picks. I won't be surprised if they are on a dz or girardi deal either . Boyle makes too much and Lindberg could replace Moore next season

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01-08-2014, 10:47 AM
  #570
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Can you explain to me how Boyle is a "tremendously flawed" player?
He fell down twice in a shift. Therefore, he's flawed.

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01-08-2014, 10:55 AM
  #571
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Yeah, but you know. How many times was Kovalchuk a healthy scratch for NJ? 2-3?

Kovalchuk scored 60 pts for NJ in 80 games and everyone really tore his game apart. The year after he scores 83 in 77 and carries them alone to the SCF's. They made him work.

Nash is a freak of nature, but he is not a great player on the PP. If he was that, he could have become a franchise player. But I just don't think we should give up on him, go like ahh another one and then let him slip away and turn into a worthless player or give him away. I don't at all think its impossible to turn Nash into a very valuble 35 goal scorer who will force teams to adjust to him to get match ups etc, provided that we can get through to him, that we can give him a good environment, use him really well etc.
Well, for starters, Kovalchuk is a more talented player than Nash, IMO. I also think, despite some speculation to the contrary, that he was a student of the game and was willing to adapt to a new style of play as long as it made sense to him.

Nash is a very talented player in his own right, but it's not so much how he plays, but the fact that he's just wildly inconsistent from shift to shift. He doesn't have that natural compete level that the best players in the league have. Getting 35 goals out of a player is great, and highly possible with Nash, but it's the other things in context that make him a question mark.

I don't have a problem with him on the team, but I do have a problem with building a team around him and thus making him our best forward.

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01-08-2014, 11:26 AM
  #572
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Seems to me that having Lundqvist, Nash, Girardi, Callahan all signed long term at high cap hits until and maybe through their mid 30s, all with no trade/movement clauses, might be a bad long term idea.

The only two arguments that make sense to me pertaining to keeping them is,

Sather and company will just use that cap space on worse ideas.

And/or

If they do sell them, some of them, whatever, they will just screw up the drafting or be non patient through the process and trade for more junk with those assets.

None of the options seems very appetizing to me unfortunately if history is a guide, I'm not sure I see it going any other way.

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01-08-2014, 11:28 AM
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
I am all for moving both out for picks. I won't be surprised if they are on a dz or girardi deal either . Boyle makes too much and Lindberg could replace Moore next season
id love to see Lindberg get a few games before Boyle or Moore are dealt. no need to put a player in a position that he is not used too yet. im shocked Lindberg has not got a game or 2 already..

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01-08-2014, 11:29 AM
  #574
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The scary thing about Sharp is the Hawks were the only team interested in him when Philly was looking to deal him. The top teams have their best players playing at their best. Kane. Toews. Sharp. Keith. All of them are having great years. On the Rangers,only McDonagh is playing up to his capability. There's always some excuse. Joe Mic was going after the team on Saturday's pre game show. He singled out McDonagh as someone who doesn't need anyone to get him prepared to play. The rest of these guys are somewhere else. Most of them are probably concerned about their contracts. Lundqvist was distracted and he was the guy most definitely getting a new contract.

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01-08-2014, 11:32 AM
  #575
Ola
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Fair pts RB.


Last edited by Ola: 01-08-2014 at 11:39 AM.
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