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Brooks-RANGERS NEED SHOT OF YOUTH

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01-22-2007, 04:10 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Agree about Dubi, but they have to do something about the C spot....Either Callahan or Dawes would be fine with me right now...

I'm leery about calling up a D-man, because with Pock playing well, I just don't think a kid will get much playing time over Pock, Rachunek,Toots,Ward, Rosy-Malik...Not saying I agree, but if they are going to be 7th, keep them in Hartford.....Also, I'm not so certain that Baranka will be recalled before Girardi, who has been the Packs best D-man for two years...
I agree, for me the big one is probably to at least try and generate something on that third line. Whether that be Callahan or Dawes, that third line doesn't bring enough energy to get away with zero offense and vice versa.

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01-22-2007, 04:11 PM
  #52
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IMO you don't play youth just so you can say that your average team age is younger, you do it because something on the team isn't working and there's a possible replacement ready. Dawes, Immo, Baranka and Callahan have shown (in my eyes) that they are deserving of a look. Hossa hasn't worked on the 2nd line, give dawes a crack at his minutes, ditto with Callahan and Hall, Baranka and Malik. The C position is a mess but Immo deserves a good look. If they can't do the job of the people they are replacing or look like they need more development you send them back down and tell them what to work on, but you have to give them a proper shot if the current roster isn't working.

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01-22-2007, 04:33 PM
  #53
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This conversation just goes round and round.
The real question is: are the Rangers going to call anyone up from Hartford this week or not?
I have no clue...........

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01-22-2007, 05:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
This conversation just goes round and round.
The real question is: are the Rangers going to call anyone up from Hartford this week or not?
I have no clue...........
Well, the first question should be who will get benched this week? Do you think that Malik, Kaspar, Hall, Hossa, Betts, Ward, Hollweg or Krog will be benched in favor of anyone in Hartford? I sincerly doubt it. At the very most I can only see one of these guys getting benched for 1 or 2 games. Then the same old story will unfold where the kid is scratched so he can "watch the game from another perspective" and learn how to play hockey from the press box. Then he'll get 4th line minutes in 1 game then another 5 games in the press box and a demotion.

Of course the ironic thing will happen and it will be Pock or Prucha getting benched in favor of a Packer.

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01-22-2007, 05:28 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
Bringing up young guys isnt so simple. People on the Devils boards would love to see Bergfors and Greene (who was sent down on Saturday) to play up in the NHL.

But it isnt so smart. Players may have raw talent and play well in the AHL, but how they handled Parise is the way to go. Season or two in the AHL, then 15 mins a game in the NHL for one season, then more mins and responsibility the season after.

Players arent tools where you simply bring them up and integrate them into the team. Bring some of these guys up too early and they fizzle out.
Thank you...I was about to reply that the Devils promote young players when they are ready.

Brooks obviously loses creditability with his lack of knowledge in our prospects.

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01-22-2007, 06:07 PM
  #56
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Did anyone else catch this paragraph at the bottom of the story?

Quote:
Help is going to have to come from Hartford. The stakes are high, and that will place additional focus and pressure on Dubinsky if, as seems inevitable, the 20-year-old center is recalled this week.
The way I read that is that, there's a strong chance Dubinsky is getting recalled.

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01-22-2007, 06:12 PM
  #57
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Did anyone else catch this paragraph at the bottom of the story?



The way I read that is that, there's a strong chance Dubinsky is getting recalled.
In Brooks' thinking at least...And although I think DUbi should stay in Hartford for his development, if we are calling up a C to help the parent club at the 2nd C spot for the physical PO run, Dubinsky is the best option..

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01-22-2007, 06:46 PM
  #58
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How come Devils "youngins" are always "ready" to be called up and ours never are? Could it be that their player development philosphy (as well as their GM) is better than ours? Their scouting too? Why don't we ever learn?
Why do I have the horrible feeling that come Saturday Krog will be centering for Shanahan, Hossa will be getting his usual sacrosanct minutes and that if Renney really wants to shake things up, he'll reinsert Hall into the lineup? After all he must be good and hungry after being benched. Help...I'm drowning in a sea of mediocrity!!!

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01-22-2007, 07:23 PM
  #59
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I said it during camp, so I'll mention it again: Brandon Dubinsky looked like a kid that's two years away.

I'm not sure that putting youth into the lineup makes us better immediately as Larry would suggest. Maybe - maybe - it makes us better in the long run, but you run the risk of pushing some of these kids in head first. I don't like the idea of rushing some of these kids.

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01-22-2007, 07:39 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I said it during camp, so I'll mention it again: Brandon Dubinsky looked like a kid that's two years away.
And he hasn't really done anything in Hartford that would disprove that. He's picking up his play as of late, but there's no real reason why he needs to be rushed into the NHL. Immonen is not only playing better, but he's also done well when played on the second line earlier in the season.

That said, I think Immonen and Girardi are the two most deserving players in Hartford. Girardi simply doesn't get credit where credit is due, whether it be because he wasn't a draft pick, or whatever reason. He's more defensively reliable than Thomas Pock, he can put up points, he's a great assist man, I could go on and on.

The reason that Girardi got where he is today is because of hard work. He played himself on to the Wolf Pack, and given the chance, he can easily play himself on to the Rangers.

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01-22-2007, 07:47 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by caldercup0 View Post
And he hasn't really done anything in Hartford that would disprove that. He's picking up his play as of late, but there's no real reason why he needs to be rushed into the NHL. Immonen is not only playing better, but he's also done well when played on the second line earlier in the season.

That said, I think Immonen and Girardi are the two most deserving players in Hartford. Girardi simply doesn't get credit where credit is due, whether it be because he wasn't a draft pick, or whatever reason. He's more defensively reliable than Thomas Pock, he can put up points, he's a great assist man, I could go on and on.

The reason that Girardi got where he is today is because of hard work. He played himself on to the Wolf Pack, and given the chance, he can easily play himself on to the Rangers.
Agree with you on Girardi and Immo being the two most deserving D and C in Hartford....Girardi, as you know better then I, has been the Pack's best D man for two years...The one thing is that I'm not sure how the staedy Girardi will fare in the NHL compared to Baranka who has better physical attributes..

Likewise, I just don't think IMMO's game translates to the NHLK becasue of lack of speed, energy and physicality while Dubinsky's game does (even if he's not as ready)....

It will be interesting..

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01-22-2007, 08:44 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I said it during camp, so I'll mention it again: Brandon Dubinsky looked like a kid that's two years away.

I'm not sure that putting youth into the lineup makes us better immediately as Larry would suggest. Maybe - maybe - it makes us better in the long run, but you run the risk of pushing some of these kids in head first. I don't like the idea of rushing some of these kids.
well that depends on the kid. I don't know why anyone would want to promote Dubinsky right now. I'm as excited about his potential as anyone else, but as of right now what has he done in hartford to earn himself a call up?

Now Callahan, Dawes and Baranka are all differant matters. Each has done enough to atleast get a look with the big club. I don't think promoting a 21 year old that has played as well as Callahan has, a solid defensemen who is now in his 3rd season in the AHL (and playing well), or a guy that made the team out of camp, qualifies as rushing.

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01-22-2007, 09:37 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
How come Devils "youngins" are always "ready" to be called up and ours never are? Could it be that their player development philosphy (as well as their GM) is better than ours? Their scouting too? Why don't we ever learn?
Why do I have the horrible feeling that come Saturday Krog will be centering for Shanahan, Hossa will be getting his usual sacrosanct minutes and that if Renney really wants to shake things up, he'll reinsert Hall into the lineup? After all he must be good and hungry after being benched. Help...I'm drowning in a sea of mediocrity!!!
Because the Devils have been drafting and DEVELOPING players for 15 + years. The Rangers have been doing it seriously for 3. The more seasoned serious prospects we have, this is their SECOND year in the AHL. That is not considered burying your prospects by any stretch of the imagination.

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01-23-2007, 12:11 AM
  #64
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re: player development, I think this is exactly Brooks' point. He wants the Rangers to think about player development as it relates to producing big league players, not in terms of whether or not it creates a successful team in Hartford or the E.

This quote from OffWingOpinion (in context of the Devils terrible teams in Albany) speaks directly to this:

Quote:
Like many NHL teams, the Devils could care less how many games are won by their minor league team. All Lou Lamoriello wants is for two or three prospects on the River Rats to develop to the point where they’ll eventually be able to serve as suitable role players for the parent team. While Albany has struggled over the years, the Devils have remained a playoff contender, integrating former star Rats like John Madden, Brian Gionta, and Colin White into their lineup with ease.
From what I can tell, Brooks is questioning not just if Dubinsky and others should come up from Hartford, but whether or not Schoenfeld is doing what's necessary to turn the prospects with the most potential into bona fide NHLers.

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01-23-2007, 02:30 AM
  #65
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Dawes had an average of about 7 minutes of ice time in those first 2 games of regular 3rd line minutes. He got 2 hots on net, playing with pretty inept partners. I dont remember exactly who his linemates where in those first 2 games, but im guessing the usual jokers are there.

so 7 minutes of ice time, over 2 games, playing with inept partners, and hes gotta move the heaven, earth and the sky in order to stay with the club. Do you have any idea how asinine that is?

How about the Devils Travis Zajac? the kid averaged 14 minutes a game in his first 2 games as a Devil. His career numbers arent even in the same league to the amount of points Dawes has put up throughout his career. It is absolutely crazy to think that Dawes got a fair chance. He didnt. I mean, you gotta put people in situations to succeed bro, you put a scorer, on a scoring line, OR with people who can play an effective offensive game.
First of all Dawes played the first games with Betts and Hall, which were our 3rd line. If you aren't a playing special teams in games with allot of PIMs thats the numbers you get in the NHL.

You can be amazed and laugh all you want, but I just find it strange that you opt to compare Dawes with a 1st round pick, who is a big and allaround talented center, and a good one, in Zajac, instead of how NJD for example are handling Niklas Bergfors, who arguably is a better player then Dawes. Dawes not only is 5'8, but is also downright slow over the length of the ice. He is extremely quick in small spaces, but on end to end rushes he is below avg in the NHL.

You compared Dawes stats with Zajac. But you have to understand that a player who scores twice as much (in the CHL) as someone else (in college) not necessary are better equiped for the NHL.

You say that you have to put people in position to succed, thats exactly what I have been talking about in this thread. After seeing Dawes taking 79 shifts and play several preseason games, were he were great in some, and invisible in others, it was obvious that atleast gooing into this season Dawes not only weren't good enough, but he weren't good enough to even take part in the play, he couldn't even contribute in the areas that were supposed to be his strength. That gives me the opinion that there weren't a position on this team were Dawes could have succeded.

If you want to know how a kid should look getting limited ice time, watch games from early last season and how Prucha plays. Dawes in almost 80 shifts accomplished less then Prucha did just about every shift.


Last edited by Ola: 01-23-2007 at 05:21 AM.
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01-23-2007, 02:43 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
re: player development, I think this is exactly Brooks' point. He wants the Rangers to think about player development as it relates to producing big league players, not in terms of whether or not it creates a successful team in Hartford or the E.

This quote from OffWingOpinion (in context of the Devils terrible teams in Albany) speaks directly to this:

From what I can tell, Brooks is questioning not just if Dubinsky and others should come up from Hartford, but whether or not Schoenfeld is doing what's necessary to turn the prospects with the most potential into bona fide NHLers.
Good point, and its a good question that Brooks raises.

Though in this case, ie this seasons, I think we have made the right choice, trying to have a strong team in the AHL.

There is a big diffrence between NJD and the NYR, and thats the style of play. NJD's have 3 D's that moves the puck, and a few talented players, enough for them to have a good transition game since they are so well oiled.

We are trying to get our farm team to a level were they play the same system we do in NY, were a offensive D can develop, and stuff like that. I think the route we have taken gives our highpotential kids a chance to play in the same system we do in NY is the best for us. If we wanted to develop more Hollwegs and Ortmayers, we should have keept McGill.

Also, I wouldn't look to much across the river for guidelines how to run a NHL team these days. That should have been done 1995. Now I defenitly would look upstate instead. I would be extremely suprised if NJD ever went far in the PO's in the new NHL, even with guys like Martin Brodeur, Elias, Gomez, Gionta, Rafalski, Madden and Pandolfo.

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01-23-2007, 06:35 AM
  #67
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well that depends on the kid. I don't know why anyone would want to promote Dubinsky right now. I'm as excited about his potential as anyone else, but as of right now what has he done in hartford to earn himself a call up?

Now Callahan, Dawes and Baranka are all differant matters. Each has done enough to atleast get a look with the big club. I don't think promoting a 21 year old that has played as well as Callahan has, a solid defensemen who is now in his 3rd season in the AHL (and playing well), or a guy that made the team out of camp, qualifies as rushing.
Baranka is in his second pro season.By all accounts,Baranka should be playing with the big club

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01-23-2007, 06:41 AM
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Dubinsky plays his best hockey in the playoffs.In the 2005 WHL playoffs,Dubinsky played his ass off in first round series loss with went seven games to Everett(Ivan Baranka's team).Last season,he led the charge in Portland's comeback being down 3-1 to Seattle.Portland won the series in seven.Then Dubinsky joined Hartford and played well against Manchester

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01-23-2007, 06:45 AM
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Thank you...I was about to reply that the Devils promote young players when they are ready.

Brooks obviously loses creditability with his lack of knowledge in our prospects.
Larry gains creditibilty for promoting the Rangers getting younger rather than import some mercenary as a quick fix solution such as Steve Zipay has suggested.The Rangers will break out of their malaise when the young players are allowed to lead the way

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01-23-2007, 07:11 AM
  #70
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What management lacks is patience and courage to develop young talent. The youngsters inevitably will make mistakes. Further, it could cost a playoff position. However, whether we agree on Immonen, Dubi, Baranka, or someone else, the kids need a chance, not just a game or two. A foundation of youngsters will be required. Goaltending seems well in place. The blueLine needs an infusion over two years such as Staal, Baranka and perhaps another to go along with Tyutin. The forwards need some top six contributors. I strongly disagree with Edge and others who believe Immonen had a fair shot. However, assuming they are correct, Cally and Dawes deserve time. The point being, give the kids a real chance to acclimate. Since training camp I stated this team will fight a death struggle to qualify for the playoffs. So what? The 30 year old players on the downhill will not lead us to a Cup. Edmonton last year was a fluke. Management should be courageous and do the right thING, build a foundation. Regrettably, I do not think it will happen.I'm frustrated and somewhat disillusioned.Comments?

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01-23-2007, 07:32 AM
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What management lacks is patience and courage to develop young talent. The youngsters inevitably will make mistakes. Further, it could cost a playoff position. However, whether we agree on Immonen, Dubi, Baranka, or someone else, the kids need a chance, not just a game or two. A foundation of youngsters will be required. Goaltending seems well in place. The blueLine needs an infusion over two years such as Staal, Baranka and perhaps another to go along with Tyutin. The forwards need some top six contributors. I strongly disagree with Edge and others who believe Immonen had a fair shot. However, assuming they are correct, Cally and Dawes deserve time. The point being, give the kids a real chance to acclimate. Since training camp I stated this team will fight a death struggle to qualify for the playoffs. So what? The 30 year old players on the downhill will not lead us to a Cup. Edmonton last year was a fluke. Management should be courageous and do the right thING, build a foundation. Regrettably, I do not think it will happen.I'm frustrated and somewhat disillusioned.Comments?
While I do believe we badly need to incorporate youth immediately, we won't get anywhere by discussing it for this season. No one will budge on their stance, it's a waste of time. So let's look to next year. What's going to happen? Will the team finally allow for the open competition for spots with the potential for rookies winning them? Will we enter into camp with 8 veteran defensemen or will there be a chance for a Baranka or Giradi or Staal or any youngster (or 2) to win a spot. Will Dawes, Callahan, Dubinsky, Korpikoski, Immonen or Moore have a spot available if they well and truly deserve it or will there be too many vets in the way?

The problem I see within the next couple of seasons our imporved drafting will create a situation where alot of youngsters will be knocking on the door. A nice problem to have but is it practical to have such a young team. Do we want a d-corp made up of 4 players with less than 2 years experience? Do we want 7 or more forwards with the same amount of experience? Will the execs ever actually allow it or will they just sell off the youngsters in an attempt to land that one superstar that will fill the seats? I feel like their conservative approach now will lead to an unhealthy situation in a few years when we can no longer ignore the youth from below.

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01-23-2007, 07:43 AM
  #72
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Mugerya: We can't incorporate all the youth at one time. Under the perfect scenario, one to three rookies are incorporated each year. Next year, Staal, Dubi, AND ANOTHER MAY QUALIFY. However, why can't Immonen, Baranka ,Dawes, or Callahan receive a shot this year. Is our defense so stellar that Baranka can't unseat A defenseman? Is our offense so dynamic that a Dawes Immonen or Callahan can't help. I'm tired of waiting for our veterans with no upside potential "leading the way."Renney has become a gutless coach!

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01-23-2007, 07:52 AM
  #73
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BigE...

good, and interesting observation on Dubi. I'm not going to guess when he'll be ready, and will reserve that talk for March. He's improved a lot, stepped back a little, and has been up and down of late. Nothing out of the ordinary for a 20 year old. The next couple months will lend a lot of information as to what the organization has to work with for next season at the center position.

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01-23-2007, 07:59 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Larry gains creditibilty for promoting the Rangers getting younger rather than import some mercenary as a quick fix solution such as Steve Zipay has suggested.The Rangers will break out of their malaise when the young players are allowed to lead the way
One month from now Brooks will be touting trading some of that youth for a shot at the #8 seed.

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01-23-2007, 08:00 AM
  #75
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We are trying to get our farm team to a level were they play the same system we do in NY, were a offensive D can develop, and stuff like that. I think the route we have taken gives our highpotential kids a chance to play in the same system we do in NY is the best for us. If we wanted to develop more Hollwegs and Ortmayers, we should have keept McGill.
But the accusation still stands that Schoenfeld is doing what's good for Hartford, not what's good for NYR prospects. Wasn't that what got McGill canned?

I still stand by McGill's methods. He was charged with producing NHL players in a day and age where stifling defense won games, so what would have been the benefit of preening a players' offensive potential? Additionally, he wasn't working with the kind of talent that Schoeny is.

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