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KHL Expansion part III

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Old
01-09-2014, 12:44 AM
  #976
loppa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
KHL can't be a "Euro league" and a Russian league. It has to choose one.
No matter how much people might want, this league will remain a primarily Slavic league, and a Russian one at that.

Some scandinavian teams in there (well at least Jokerit) will simply be the "sprinkled seasoning" on the meal.




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Originally Posted by bobbeaver
I believe there will be 50/50%, 16 foreign 16 russian teams
I normally don't dream, so I don't have such ugly nightmares.

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01-09-2014, 02:27 AM
  #977
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The point is taken and I think it is valid - if the KHL wants to become Europe's NHL, it will have to do more to generate interest than just a couple of teams. If its social project aspect is more important, fine, but that will come at the expense of other goals. I look at Lev Praha here, I went to see them when they played CSKA or SKA, but some game against Siberian towns I've never heard of doesn't draw me. That's just a fact. There is a problem with media coverage too.

When I look at a theoretical division like
Eisbären
Adler
Lev
Slovan
Medvescak
Bern
Salzburg
Paris

that is obviously much more attractive and I know I am not alone in seeing that. I can even envision travelling to see the team play elsewhere. I can see why for Russians it takes away from their own league, because the KHL is their league. But the way it is it doesn't draw enough away from the respective national league, but maybe that's just my perspective because Lev is a new team without an established fanbase.

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01-09-2014, 04:02 AM
  #978
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Perhaps the only solution to satisfy everybody's need is to expand to 64 teams?

32 Russian/East slavic teams (adding teams like Tolyatti, Samara, Krasnoyarsk, Murmansk, Tyumen etc)

32 Western Europe teams (8 Swedish, 8 Finnish, 4 German, 3 Czech, 3 Swiss, 2 Slovak, 1 Austrian, 1 Croatian, 1 Slovenian, 1 Norwegian)

Western teams never play Russian/Eastern teams until the final. That league might actually get decent attendance in Sweden.

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Old
01-09-2014, 04:05 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by maclean View Post
The point is taken and I think it is valid - if the KHL wants to become Europe's NHL, it will have to do more to generate interest than just a couple of teams. If its social project aspect is more important, fine, but that will come at the expense of other goals. I look at Lev Praha here, I went to see them when they played CSKA or SKA, but some game against Siberian towns I've never heard of doesn't draw me. That's just a fact. There is a problem with media coverage too.

When I look at a theoretical division like
Eisbären
Adler
Lev
Slovan
Medvescak
Bern
Salzburg
Paris

that is obviously much more attractive and I know I am not alone in seeing that. I can even envision travelling to see the team play elsewhere. I can see why for Russians it takes away from their own league, because the KHL is their league. But the way it is it doesn't draw enough away from the respective national league, but maybe that's just my perspective because Lev is a new team without an established fanbase.
This would be also the weakest division.

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01-09-2014, 04:10 AM
  #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclean View Post
The point is taken and I think it is valid - if the KHL wants to become Europe's NHL, it will have to do more to generate interest than just a couple of teams. If its social project aspect is more important, fine, but that will come at the expense of other goals. I look at Lev Praha here, I went to see them when they played CSKA or SKA, but some game against Siberian towns I've never heard of doesn't draw me. That's just a fact. There is a problem with media coverage too.

When I look at a theoretical division like
Eisbären
Adler
Lev
Slovan
Medvescak
Bern
Salzburg
Paris

that is obviously much more attractive and I know I am not alone in seeing that. I can even envision travelling to see the team play elsewhere. I can see why for Russians it takes away from their own league, because the KHL is their league. But the way it is it doesn't draw enough away from the respective national league, but maybe that's just my perspective because Lev is a new team without an established fanbase.
Say me one thing. Why do you need KHL for that division at all? Europe can easily create such pan-European league by yourself.

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Old
01-09-2014, 04:22 AM
  #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post
Perhaps the only solution to satisfy everybody's need is to expand to 64 teams?

32 Russian/East slavic teams (adding teams like Tolyatti, Samara, Krasnoyarsk, Murmansk, Tyumen etc)

32 Western Europe teams (8 Swedish, 8 Finnish, 4 German, 3 Czech, 3 Swiss, 2 Slovak, 1 Austrian, 1 Croatian, 1 Slovenian, 1 Norwegian)

Western teams never play Russian/Eastern teams until the final. That league might actually get decent attendance in Sweden.
It's not expansion. It's separation. Two different leagues that play separate championships with some sort of super-cup in the end. I'm not against it, but again, where's money for European part?

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Old
01-09-2014, 04:26 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by alce View Post
Say me one thing. Why do you need KHL for that division at all? Europe can easily create such pan-European league by yourself.
Europe is not interested in that at the moment, all focus is on expanding the CHL tournament.

The KHL wants teams from Western Europe, one possible solution could be to remove around ten Russian teams. I Understand that cities like Novosibirsk and Ekaterinburg are fairly modern (two of the most important Russian industrial cities during WW2) but in all fairness, their hockey isn't any good and I doubt that they will ever compete at the same level as the teams that are further west of them.

But... there's no guarantee that the new European teams will play any better since we don't have the economical strength as the Russian teams has...

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01-09-2014, 04:32 AM
  #983
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[QUOTE=pulverapa;77654161]Novosibirsk and Ekaterinburg are fairly modern (two of the most important Russian industrial cities during WW2)
[QUOTE]

WW2? This are the 3d and the 4th largest Russian cities...

Quote:
but in all fairness, their hockey isn't any good and I doubt that they will ever compete at the same level as the teams that are further west of them.

All it takes is more money and you have a powerhouse, like it happened with CSKA and SKA.

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01-09-2014, 04:33 AM
  #984
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And Novosib will be building a new large house (15000-20000). I don't think there is a single chance that the KHL leaves these two cities.

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01-09-2014, 04:34 AM
  #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post
Europe is not interested in that at the moment, all focus is on expanding the CHL tournament.

The KHL wants teams from Western Europe, one possible solution could be to remove around ten Russian teams. I Understand that cities like Novosibirsk and Ekaterinburg are fairly modern (two of the most important Russian industrial cities during WW2) but in all fairness, their hockey isn't any good and I doubt that they will ever compete at the same level as the teams that are further west of them.

But... there's no guarantee that the new European teams will play any better since we don't have the economical strength as the Russian teams has...
KHL isn't interested in it either. Medvedev already clearly say what he want. One more team from west Europe and returning of Lada to the league. And that's all for now. Thinking that he ditch Eburg and Novosib for some European teams isn't even funny.

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01-09-2014, 04:37 AM
  #986
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Originally Posted by alce View Post
returning of Lada to the league.
Which is stupid

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Old
01-09-2014, 05:21 AM
  #987
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I'm starting to realize what a disaster Jokerit are in... I feel sympathy for the fans... It's clear that the Russian leadership doesn't want to sacrifice more teams, therefore the league has no future in Europe. Good luck in Asia.

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01-09-2014, 05:40 AM
  #988
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Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post
I'm starting to realize what a disaster Jokerit are in... I feel sympathy for the fans... It's clear that the Russian leadership doesn't want to sacrifice more teams, therefore the league has no future in Europe. Good luck in Asia.
It's always good when people start looking at the reality without pink glasses.

KHL isn't a money bag and its goal never was to pay for development of European hockey at the expense of Russian teams. I don't even understand why such ridiculous idea even got to some heads.

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Old
01-09-2014, 05:51 AM
  #989
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Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post
I'm starting to realize what a disaster Jokerit are in... I feel sympathy for the fans... It's clear that the Russian leadership doesn't want to sacrifice more teams, therefore the league has no future in Europe. Good luck in Asia.
Who said it? As I know KHL has ambition to have more euro clubs, best scenario is 16-16 (russian-nonrussian)

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01-09-2014, 06:01 AM
  #990
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Who said it? As I know KHL has ambition to have more euro clubs, best scenario is 16-16 (russian-nonrussian)
Please, I beg you, stop it. You are the only men in this world who are proposing this 16/16 nonsense. It never was the idea. There were some very old words about 32/32 division. But even if we forget that he completely abandoned this idea long ago you should understand that 32/32 is not equal to 16/16. If we don't have enough European teams it's not the reason to cut amount of Russian teams. Not the reason at all.

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01-09-2014, 06:05 AM
  #991
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Originally Posted by alce View Post
Please, I beg you, stop it. You are the only men in this world who are proposing this 16/16 nonsense. It never was the idea. There were some very old words about 32/32 division. But even if we forget that he completely abandoned this idea long ago you should understand that 32/32 is not equal to 16/16. If we don't have enough European teams it's not the reason to cut amount of Russian teams. Not the reason at all.
I think I know KHL very well, so I insist on my words about 16/16, like it or not.

Can I remind you that it was me who claim in feb-march 2013, that finnish club is joining KHL?? You can find it in my previous posts.

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Old
01-09-2014, 06:07 AM
  #992
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All it takes is more money and you have a powerhouse, like it happened with CSKA and SKA.
Do you live in Stockholm? Then you have to realize that a Swedish team, especially here, can never become a powerhouse. "All it takes..." Funny.

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01-09-2014, 06:11 AM
  #993
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Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post
Do you live in Stockholm? Then you have to realize that a Swedish team, especially here, can never become a powerhouse. "All it takes..." Funny.
I am talking about Sibir and Avto, regarding your comment that they will be never good anyway...

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01-09-2014, 06:18 AM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Den View Post
I am talking about Sibir and Avto, regarding your comment that they will be never good anyway...
I sent you a PM

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01-09-2014, 06:26 AM
  #995
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I think I know KHL very well, so I insist on my words about 16/16, like it or not.

Can I remind you that it was me who claim in feb-march 2013, that finnish club is joining KHL?? You can find it in my previous posts.
And? Sorry, but you are looking in the wrong way. I give you some hint. Do you know short history of KHL? Why they have agreement with FHR which was signed two times already and will be signed again this year? KHL was going to hold independent from FHR championship from the start, but was told to shut up and sign papers. And where they were told to do it? On the meeting of Tretyak, Medvedev and one of Vice premier of Russian Federation. Get it? There are absolutely no chance that Russian teams will be scarified for European teams. Surely one or two could die by yourself, but with 90% chances they will be replaced by other Russian team.


Last edited by alce: 01-09-2014 at 06:41 AM.
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Old
01-09-2014, 06:42 AM
  #996
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Originally Posted by alce View Post
And? Sorry, but you are looking in the wrong way. I give you some hint. Do you know short history of KHL? Why they have agreement with FHR which was signed two times already and will be signed again this year? KHL was going to hold independent from FHR championship from the start, but was told to shut up and sign papers. And where they told to do it? On the meeting of Tretyak, Medvedev and one of Vice premier of Russian Federation. Get it? There are absolutely no chance that Russian teams will be scarified for European teams. Surely one or two could die by yourself, but with 90% chances they will be replaced by other Russian team.
Yes, I do. Btw, it is your duty to support your claims by sources. I dont see any source in your post. And, maybe you dont know, but KHL has changed its strategies many times since 2000´s. The newest strategy is to buy arenas in Europe and do you know why?

Quote:
Рассмотрим подобные проекты на территории Европы и России. Так что "Хартвалл" — не последняя наша сделка",
google
Quote:
We consider similar projects in Europe and Russia. So "Hartwall" - not our last deal "
http://www.championat.com/hockey/new...ha-sdelka.html

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01-09-2014, 07:15 AM
  #997
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
And, maybe you dont know, but KHL has changed its strategies many times since 2000´s. The newest strategy is to buy arenas in Europe and do you know why?


google

http://www.championat.com/hockey/new...ha-sdelka.html
And? You don't notice that there is Russia in that sentence too? And if they want to replace one European team for other, why not? There is plans only for one new European team now, but if some of existing European teams collapse, why not?

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01-09-2014, 07:33 AM
  #998
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I will not waste my time anymore ... untill you provide a source.

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Old
01-09-2014, 07:51 AM
  #999
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KHL doesn't want to accept some nordic fishing villages into the league? What a surprise. The goal is to compete with NHL. Why take them if they can't compete with American cities. Can they build an NHL level arenas and get NHL level budgets? Not in a million years. Do they even want to stop being a feeder teams? No. So it's hilarious to read the comments like "oh, you don't think that my team is a perfect expansion candidate? You are doomed! And your league! We didn't want to join anyway, good luck in Asia".

KHL doesn't need to prove anything to anyone. It is the best league in Europe AND Asia. And it's moving in the right direction. No hasty moves. Getting a solid foothold in major hockey countries and moving next. Say whatever you won't, but from where I am Jokerit looks like the best candidate from Finland. Same for Bratislava and Prague. TPS, HIFK, JYP? What is this? Why would KHL need them when we got Jokerit and the best arena in Finland?

Looks to me like some people just want to create a Nordic league at KHL's expense. Create a small division and play 90% of the games within it. Do you really think KHL is that stupid?

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01-09-2014, 08:39 AM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by Den View Post
I am saying Sweden and Finland will never allow for these teams to leave...
More like there's no way Russians would be willing to pay all the expenses for that many non-Russian clubs. There's barely enough sponsors for Jokerit in Finland (and they can't even fund Jokerit by themselves, which Roman Rotenberg has admitted, so it's not sane to think there'd be more teams.

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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
I disagree. If Jokerit becomes THE team from Finland with all the best Finnish players not in the NHL, then Finland will rally behind it and the Finnish league will look like minor league peasant irrelevancy

at least that's the plan
That won't be happening, Jokerit can't match the salaries of the likes of Kontiola and Lehterä due to much higher taxation in Finland (many Finnish KHL players have said this). They are marketing themselves to players/agents as a stepping stone NHL and richer KHL teams, ie. essentially staying as a feeder team. Also, Jokerit are far too hated in Finland by the average hockey fan to garner "national support".

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