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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Wheels and Sarge out.

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Old
01-09-2014, 12:30 AM
  #801
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
You can't split Bonds and Clemens from anyone in that era, even though they were caught. No one knows every single person that juiced. If the league and writers are trying to make such a statement by keeping them out, where were these vigilante writers during the actual time period the players were using? They all knew. If not all, most.
Barry Larkin said tonight on ESPN as a member he feels like anybody proven to be linked to PED's shouldn't have the honor of being in the group players who are HOF's but in case of guy like Bonds or Clemens their records should be honored in the HOF much like Pete Rose's is despite that fact that he's not actually member.

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01-09-2014, 06:50 AM
  #802
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Question:

Do you guys see Utley as being a future Hall of Famer?
A while back I compared Utley's numbers to that of the 2nd basemen already in the hall, and if he continues to play healthy seasons for the next few years he should have a decent shot of getting in. What should be and what actually happens can be very different when it comes to stuff that is voted on though.

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01-09-2014, 07:46 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
You can't split Bonds and Clemens from anyone in that era, even though they were caught. No one knows every single person that juiced. If the league and writers are trying to make such a statement by keeping them out, where were these vigilante writers during the actual time period the players were using? They all knew. If not all, most.
Yes, yes you can. We as a society do this all the time. Look, if it were shown that Bonds only cheated during the last few years of his career and I had confidence that he performed independent of cheating for the bulk of his career, I got no issue letting him in on the strength of his untainted career. Basically, he was an HOFer without the juice, but in the years that he abused, you have to throw them out imo.

What will be really interesting is the first previously admitted HOFer found to have juiced. Can you be removed from the Hall? I would doubt it, but I bet that would change pretty fast. That is when this whole HOF charade may see a dramatic shift.

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01-09-2014, 08:02 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by mypunkrock View Post
Question:

Do you guys see Utley as being a future Hall of Famer?
No. Absolutely not. In my opinion, the HOF is for the best players of all time. Not the best players of the generation. Not the best players at a position during a decade. The best players of all time. Utley is one of the best Phillies of all time, but in my opinion nowhere near the Hall of Fame.

Now, there are guys in the Hall right now that I would not have voted for, so I think he does have a shot, but I would not give him a vote unless he finishes his career in such a way that would make him one of the greatest players of all time.

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01-09-2014, 08:15 AM
  #805
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I highly doubt Utley makes it, if he didn't have his career derailed for those 3 years he would be in a better position for sure. Right now, he'd have to have a typical Utley career for another 5 years (maybe more) to have a possible discussion.

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01-09-2014, 08:27 AM
  #806
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No. Absolutely not. In my opinion, the HOF is for the best players of all time. Not the best players of the generation. Not the best players at a position during a decade. The best players of all time. Utley is one of the best Phillies of all time, but in my opinion nowhere near the Hall of Fame.

Now, there are guys in the Hall right now that I would not have voted for, so I think he does have a shot, but I would not give him a vote unless he finishes his career in such a way that would make him one of the greatest players of all time.
Um..those things usually make you one of the best players of all time.

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01-09-2014, 08:45 AM
  #807
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Um..those things usually make you one of the best players of all time.
Yeah maybe I misspoke about the best player of the generation, that would get you in to the HOF for me, haha.

But being the best 2nd baseman of 2000-2010 doesn't do it in my book. He's not going to get 500 HRs (he may not even get 300). He's not going to get 3000 hits (he may not even get 2000). His career batting average is going to likely finish in the high .270s to low .280s. OBP likely under or around .350. No gold gloves at this point, likely won't have any. He has the four silver sluggers and a bunch of AS votes, but that doesn't get you into the hall. What about those numbers and circumstances would make him a HOFer? Absolutely nothing.

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01-09-2014, 08:48 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Yes, yes you can. We as a society do this all the time. Look, if it were shown that Bonds only cheated during the last few years of his career and I had confidence that he performed independent of cheating for the bulk of his career, I got no issue letting him in on the strength of his untainted career. Basically, he was an HOFer without the juice, but in the years that he abused, you have to throw them out imo.

What will be really interesting is the first previously admitted HOFer found to have juiced. Can you be removed from the Hall? I would doubt it, but I bet that would change pretty fast. That is when this whole HOF charade may see a dramatic shift.
When did Bonds or Clemens ever test positive for steroids? AFAIK they never have. While we all believe they did, and I believe they did, they never tested positive. Rafael Palmeiro did, not Bonds, not Clemens. I don't see how there is even evidence other than the eye test or statements from people like McNamee or other guys like that.

You can't just act like an entire generation of players never happened.

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01-09-2014, 09:23 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
When did Bonds or Clemens ever test positive for steroids? AFAIK they never have. While we all believe they did, and I believe they did, they never tested positive. Rafael Palmeiro did, not Bonds, not Clemens. I don't see how there is even evidence other than the eye test or statements from people like McNamee or other guys like that.

You can't just act like an entire generation of players never happened.
Bonds had at least four failed tests:

Quote:
The pages included documents tying Bonds to four positive tests for steroids, calendars that prosecutors described as doping schedules, and a transcript of a recorded conversation in which Bondsís former trainer is quoted as saying that he injected Bonds with performance-enhancing drugs.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/sp...anted=all&_r=0

Clemens IDK whatever happened with the guy who had the needles with his blood on them.

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01-09-2014, 10:14 AM
  #810
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Bonds had at least four failed tests:



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/sp...anted=all&_r=0

Clemens IDK whatever happened with the guy who had the needles with his blood on them.
I don't know why I thought Bonds didn't. I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning, Greeny seemed pretty intent that Bonds never failed an MLB drug test.

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01-09-2014, 10:22 AM
  #811
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Brad Lidge seems like the front runner for the color job, however, if he wants it would be another thing. The guy is pretty wealthy and comfortable.

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01-09-2014, 10:26 AM
  #812
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@bnightengale: Former #Phillies closer Brad Lidge is getting strong consideration to be hired as the Phillies color commentator if he wants the job.
10:53am - 9 Jan 14

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01-09-2014, 10:38 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
@bnightengale: Former #Phillies closer Brad Lidge is getting strong consideration to be hired as the Phillies color commentator if he wants the job.
10:53am - 9 Jan 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Brad Lidge seems like the front runner for the color job, however, if he wants it would be another thing. The guy is pretty wealthy and comfortable.
I would like Lidge if he is given the role. He always seemed like a great guy, and he is a legend in the city. The image of him dropping to his knees and raising his hands to the sky in celebration is burned into my memories forever.

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01-09-2014, 10:46 AM
  #814
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I don't know why I thought Bonds didn't. I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning, Greeny seemed pretty intent that Bonds never failed an MLB drug test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
@bnightengale: Former #Phillies closer Brad Lidge is getting strong consideration to be hired as the Phillies color commentator if he wants the job.
10:53am - 9 Jan 14
Surprised by that TBH. Never had him in mind. How is he on the air? Any experience?

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01-09-2014, 11:50 AM
  #815
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Surprised by that TBH. Never had him in mind. How is he on the air? Any experience?
I don't think he does, but I'm thinking that the way he presents himself and speaks in press conferences & post game interviews shows how he may be on the air

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01-09-2014, 12:14 PM
  #816
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Yeah maybe I misspoke about the best player of the generation, that would get you in to the HOF for me, haha.

But being the best 2nd baseman of 2000-2010 doesn't do it in my book. He's not going to get 500 HRs (he may not even get 300). He's not going to get 3000 hits (he may not even get 2000). His career batting average is going to likely finish in the high .270s to low .280s. OBP likely under or around .350. No gold gloves at this point, likely won't have any. He has the four silver sluggers and a bunch of AS votes, but that doesn't get you into the hall. What about those numbers and circumstances would make him a HOFer? Absolutely nothing.
To be fair, those are pretty lofty numbers for 2nd basemen. None have ever hit 500 HR, only 2 have ever hit 300, and just 3 have ever totaled 3000 hits.

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01-09-2014, 01:31 PM
  #817
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No Lidge.

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01-09-2014, 02:32 PM
  #818
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Dan Le Batard got his voting privileges pulled. He said he didn't care.

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01-09-2014, 02:36 PM
  #819
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Dan Le Batard got his voting privileges pulled. He said he didn't care.
If he did and that Gurnick moron still has his, that's injustice.

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01-09-2014, 03:13 PM
  #820
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I don't know why I thought Bonds didn't. I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning, Greeny seemed pretty intent that Bonds never failed an MLB drug test.
You know he may not have actually ever failed. I think that just says documents "linking" him to failed tests, so it may not be ACTUAL evidence of an official failed test.

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I don't think he does, but I'm thinking that the way he presents himself and speaks in press conferences & post game interviews shows how he may be on the air
Yeah I actually heard him on MLB Network Radio last night talking about Biggio getting snubbed. He was pretty entertaining. Real juiced up about the assumption that Biggio used. Says it is insane.

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To be fair, those are pretty lofty numbers for 2nd basemen. None have ever hit 500 HR, only 2 have ever hit 300, and just 3 have ever totaled 3000 hits.
Sure, but Utley has really nothing in common with any of the 2Bs in the HOF (at least the more recent inductions). There are only 22 in the HOF, Alomar, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Ryne Sandberg, Bill Mezerowski, and Bid McPhee have been induceted since 2000.

Alomar had 2,700 hits, batted .300 for his career and swiped 475 bases (plus 10 Gold Gloves)

Joe Gordon is more comparable. He played only 11 seasons (which Utley has played thus far) but won an MVP and had better numbers than Utley and was an all-star 9 consecutive years.

Frank Grant is a Negro Leagues player so I'm not even going to compare the two.

Ryne Sandberg had probably comparable numbers to Utley, but he had an MVP and a slew of Gold Gloves which Utley has not.

Bill Mazerowski has similar stats to what Utley will end up with, but also a slew of Gold Gloves.

In conclusion: no HOF for Utley.

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01-09-2014, 03:31 PM
  #821
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There are actually people who think Biggio juiced?

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01-09-2014, 03:55 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
There are actually people who think Biggio juiced?
Yeah, Murray Chass (or Chass Murray) who I never heard of before this year's vote but everyone seems to know, said he spoke to twenty people or something and 14 said he juiced so he didn't vote for him.

EDIT: Here's one of the quotes from the article...

Quote:
“Innocent-until-proven-guilty does not apply to the HOF. I’ve lived in Houston for 30 years, and I have little doubt that Craig Biggio was a PED user. He quacked a bit too much like a duck. If he didn’t use, he had the platform to condemn their use, or at least offer a mild rebuke. Neither he nor any other player from that era has a right to complain. Perhaps I have a right to complain. I spent 5 days in St. Louis watching McGwire hit 60, 61 and 62 — flew to Houston Tuesday morning for a meeting and back to St. Louis that afternoon to catch the game. Dupe! A hundred years of stats — stats that meant something to me — were brushed away. I suspect Biggio will get in this year, but it’s wrong.”
http://www.murraychass.com/?p=7013

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01-09-2014, 05:25 PM
  #823
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Maddux and Glavine are being interviewed on MLB Tonight, and they asked Maddux who he hated facing.

"Man, Mickey Morandini wore me out"

"I'd try and invent a backdoor slider and Mickey would still get a double off it"

He said Morandini and Bonds and was dead serious Loved Morandini!

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01-10-2014, 09:20 AM
  #824
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Sure, but Utley has really nothing in common with any of the 2Bs in the HOF (at least the more recent inductions). There are only 22 in the HOF, Alomar, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Ryne Sandberg, Bill Mezerowski, and Bid McPhee have been induceted since 2000.

Alomar had 2,700 hits, batted .300 for his career and swiped 475 bases (plus 10 Gold Gloves)

Joe Gordon is more comparable. He played only 11 seasons (which Utley has played thus far) but won an MVP and had better numbers than Utley and was an all-star 9 consecutive years.

Frank Grant is a Negro Leagues player so I'm not even going to compare the two.

Ryne Sandberg had probably comparable numbers to Utley, but he had an MVP and a slew of Gold Gloves which Utley has not.

Bill Mazerowski has similar stats to what Utley will end up with, but also a slew of Gold Gloves.

In conclusion: no HOF for Utley.
I think it's closer than you think. I don't believe he'll get in unless he has a really strong end to his career, but he is definitely a HOF talent 2B.

If you look at his numbers the biggest thing holding him back is his games played. If he hadn't been hurt for those 3 seasons he'd most likely be a lock for the HOF.

He's above the 2B HOF Avg for HR's, SLG%, and OPS. He's exactly Avg in OBP.

In per game statistics he's above the average in 2B/G, HR/G, RBI/G, Runs/Game, and just below avg in Hits/G.

I think if he has a real strong finish to his career he may get in eventually, and he'll have a better chance once the dinosaurs aren't voting anymore.

There's a couple Tables in the excel sheet comparing his numbers to the HOF Second basemen.
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx Utley HOF.xlsx‎ (18.8 KB, 1 views)

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01-10-2014, 10:31 AM
  #825
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I think it's closer than you think. I don't believe he'll get in unless he has a really strong end to his career, but he is definitely a HOF talent 2B.

If you look at his numbers the biggest thing holding him back is his games played. If he hadn't been hurt for those 3 seasons he'd most likely be a lock for the HOF.

He's above the 2B HOF Avg for HR's, SLG%, and OPS. He's exactly Avg in OBP.

In per game statistics he's above the average in 2B/G, HR/G, RBI/G, Runs/Game, and just below avg in Hits/G.

I think if he has a real strong finish to his career he may get in eventually, and he'll have a better chance once the dinosaurs aren't voting anymore.

There's a couple Tables in the excel sheet comparing his numbers to the HOF Second basemen.
I'll have to look at the spreadsheet later, but IMO, based on what I have seen and the comparables with far more hardware, I wouldn't vote for (barring any ridiculous run in the next 2-3 years).

To me, the HOF is for the best of the best of the best. I have never watched Utley and thought that of him. There is a difference between being good or even great, and being HOF worthy. Like I said, there are guys in there that I wouldn't have voted for, so I'm sure Utley has a chance depending on how he finishes up, but he wouldn't get my vote. Is Ian Kinsler getting into the HOF? In three less years his stats are close to Utley's. How about Luis Castillo? He has more GG and better numbers in pretty much everything besides HRs, 2Bs, and RBI. How about Placido Polanco? Better numbers than Chase other than HR and RBI and just as much hardware.

To me, since his numbers aren't blowing people away, you can't let him. If you do, then guys like Kinsler and Castillo and Polanco get into the conversation. All good players. So is Utley. Utley is even better than those players. But he isn't in the HOF. Obviously if he smacks 30 HR a year and bats .320 over the next three seasons and wins an MVP or something, then we are having a different conversation. But a couple more sub .300 years with sub 20 HR, fewer SBs and extra base hits etc, he doesn't make it past a year or two on the ballot.

EDIT: The injury thing sucks, but the HOF is for the best of the best, not the guys who COULD HAVE BEEN the best of the best but they got injured. It sucks, but that's the way I would vote and the way I think it should be. Otherwise, you'll have a ton of guys in the HOF and it will become less of a hallowed place.

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