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Old
01-09-2014, 01:34 AM
  #76
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I was wondering what Mez would be like as a 4th line forward.... then I remembered what he is being paid to be a defenceman!

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01-09-2014, 01:36 AM
  #77
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Mez can still be a good player in spurts. It's a shame, he looked on his way to becoming a solid top 4 guy a few seasons ago, before he ran into a long stretch of bad luck with injuries combined with an inability to get into a rhythm and probably being a bit out of shape for all the injury time.

He's been pretty horrible for the past couple seasons, but he is still only 28. Is it that far fetched that maybe he could return to his pre-injury form? Am I being too optimistic?

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01-09-2014, 02:11 AM
  #78
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3 assists....the Doomsday clock moved forward by 5 minutes
Good, I wasn't the only one thinking that after waking up and checking the boxscore.

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01-09-2014, 03:56 AM
  #79
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Mez can still be a good player in spurts. It's a shame, he looked on his way to becoming a solid top 4 guy a few seasons ago, before he ran into a long stretch of bad luck with injuries combined with an inability to get into a rhythm and probably being a bit out of shape for all the injury time.

He's been pretty horrible for the past couple seasons, but he is still only 28. Is it that far fetched that maybe he could return to his pre-injury form? Am I being too optimistic?
He won the Ashbee for us in 10-11', played pretty well until march 11-12' and has been injured since. He's been a good player for his whole career when he's healthy and had reasonable time to find his game. I always liked the guy since his tremendous rookie season on and don't see why he can't return to good form given some more time to pull it together. He competes hard and is a hell of a teammate, Id love to see this guy move past his injuries. He puts it all on the line.

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01-09-2014, 08:14 AM
  #80
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Mesz has not been as bad as people make him out to be this season, though he also hasn't been very good. He's still barely 28 years old. No reason he can't at least get back to a level close to where he was two-three years ago. No patience for 28 year old defenseman with solid track record and over 500 games though, only 25 year old defensemen with 80 career games.

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01-09-2014, 08:14 AM
  #81
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Quick sign him to a 4 year 16 million extension!

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01-09-2014, 08:15 AM
  #82
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Boston might be a trade partner for him. He played with Chara before and could help their depth because of the Seidenberg injury.

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01-09-2014, 08:51 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Mesz has not been as bad as people make him out to be this season, though he also hasn't been very good. He's still barely 28 years old. No reason he can't at least get back to a level close to where he was two-three years ago. No patience for 28 year old defenseman with solid track record and over 500 games though, only 25 year old defensemen with 80 career games.
I think he has looked absolutely dreadful in 3/4 of his games played this season. If he could be brought back for extremely cheap I wouldn't have a problem, but if he's sucking wind as the 6th defenseman here and is going to be let walk, you have to maximize value.

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01-09-2014, 09:20 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I think he has looked absolutely dreadful in 3/4 of his games played this season. If he could be brought back for extremely cheap I wouldn't have a problem, but if he's sucking wind as the 6th defenseman here and is going to be let walk, you have to maximize value.
Oh don't get me wrong, I would have no problem trading Mesz and have no problem letting him walk. I was just saying that I think he has some juice left in the tank and all we hear about on here is patience this and patience that, but the same people seem to only have patience for people under 25. Not saying now nor have I ever said that I think Mesz will ever go back to being what he was a couple years ago. Why have no patience for a guy who in the past has proven he can play at a high level but demand patience for a guy that is three years younger and has played in less than 1/5 of the career games as the other guy, some of which have been maybe possibly been slightly above average (now this is when the Gus fanboys chime in and say that Gus has always been above average or its because he hasn't been given the chance etc.).

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01-09-2014, 09:43 AM
  #85
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People do know that when Mez did play well he was facing the weakest competition out of our top defenders right? Just because you play well vs 3rd and 4th liners doesn't make you a top defender.

By some Mez has been highly overrated. He was never close to a top 4 defender on this team. You don't become a top 4 defender by playing well against 3/4 liners and horrible against 1/2 liners

DFF Gus, yet again, has played harder competition and has done better than Mez has. Advanced stats have proven this... But I guess Gus still sucks and Mez is still rusty.


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01-09-2014, 10:05 AM
  #86
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But I guess Gus still sucks and Mez is still rusty.
Atleast you now understand...

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01-09-2014, 10:14 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
People do know that when Mez did play well he was facing the weakest competition out of our top defenders right? Just because you play well vs 3rd and 4th liners doesn't make you a top defender.

By some Mez has been highly overrated. He was never close to a top 4 defender on this team. You don't become a top 4 defender by playing well against 3/4 liners and horrible against 1/2 liners
I don't think anyone is overrating Mesz. I didn't say he's a top four defender any more or even that he SHOULD be a top four defender on this team. All I've been saying (and have been since the offseason) is that I find it funny that people won't give Mesz a chance to get back to form, despite his 500+ game career where he was a good defenseman, better than the the legendary Gus, for the vast majority of those 500+ games, but will have all the patience in the world for Gus based on a sample size of less than an entire season spread out over four years because in some of those games he's looked ok (oh, and he is 25, not the ancient 28 that Mesz is).

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DFF Gus, yet again, has played harder competition and has done better than Mez has. Advanced stats have proven this... But I guess Gus still sucks and Mez is still rusty.
Never said Gus sucks once. Only said that his small sample size of 60 games before the season and 80 games now is not enough to hand him the job. Since the offseason my position was that the spot should be Mesz's to lose. If he loses it, great. Go with Gus. If he doesn't, then let him play. Mesz hasn't looked as bad as many say around here.

Also, as far as the advanced stats go, and I admit I am by no means an expert, they don't look all that different at this point, and some (if I am reading correctly) seem to favor Mesz. Corsi Rel Mesz has -2.4 and Gus has -3.1, Relative Corsi of Teammates and Corsi of Teammates is in Mesz's favor, QOC seem to be in Mesz's favor, On Ice Goals Mesz is 12 and Gus is 10 (Mesz playing in more games), G/ON60 favors Mesz, G/A60 is two hundredths better for Gus. So as far as advanced stats showing this and that, it doesn't look like Gus is that much better this year if at all.

Again, I could be reading this wrong and I don't know if some of these categories lower numbers are better or what have you, but from my reading of it, Mesz looks better by the numbers.

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01-09-2014, 10:29 AM
  #88
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Gus faces harder QoC (-.4 an -1 vs -.48 and -1.7) with worse zone starts (48.6% vs 52.2%) and has better Corsi On (1.66 vs -4.08) and moves the play forward (54.1% zone finish) while Mez move it back (46.6% zone finish). Mez also seems to have been pretty luck this year, 1036 PDO... by far the highest on the team. Gus has also taken 5x less penalties, he has also played less on the powerplay and still has more PPG than Mez even after Mezs game last night.

Gus beats him out in advanced stats, eye test and stats really, though the margin is not enormous ... the zone starts are telling in my mind, Mez gets hemmed in far too often in his own zone even with easier minutes.

I can see the argument for them being ~similar overall, but I think Gus is definitely better on D regardless. Mez if he gets back to his old self is a bigger threat going forward.

I get that you play the best player if they are both on the roster... and while I believe that is Gus atm I can see why some think Mez on track record.

However Mez is not really a feasible option going forward, as he will garner more cash than Gus...

If Mez stays hot I have not problem with playing him though... but he is poor in his own zone.

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01-09-2014, 11:02 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Gus faces harder QoC (-.4 an -1 vs -.48 and -1.7) with worse zone starts (48.6% vs 52.2%) and has better Corsi On (1.66 vs -4.08) and moves the play forward (54.1% zone finish) while Mez move it back (46.6% zone finish). Mez also seems to have been pretty luck this year, 1036 PDO... by far the highest on the team. Gus has also taken 5x less penalties, he has also played less on the powerplay and still has more PPG than Mez even after Mezs game last night.

Gus beats him out in advanced stats, eye test and stats really, though the margin is not enormous ... the zone starts are telling in my mind, Mez gets hemmed in far too often in his own zone even with easier minutes.

I can see the argument for them being ~similar overall, but I think Gus is definitely better on D regardless. Mez if he gets back to his old self is a bigger threat going forward.

I get that you play the best player if they are both on the roster... and while I believe that is Gus atm I can see why some think Mez on track record.

However Mez is not really a feasible option going forward, as he will garner more cash than Gus...

If Mez stays hot I have not problem with playing him though... but he is poor in his own zone.
Fair enough. As I said, I know nothing of advanced stats, including how to read them. Haha.

But as I said, my argument isn't that Mesz is some great player in Gus is a scrub. It is simply that you don't hand something to a player that has shown little to nothing over less than a season of play spread out over four years, just like a guy doesn't lose a job based on poor play in half of a half season and a quarter of another season. I have no problem playing Gus over Mesz if he is playing better and vice versa.

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01-09-2014, 11:16 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Mesz has not been as bad as people make him out to be this season, though he also hasn't been very good. He's still barely 28 years old. No reason he can't at least get back to a level close to where he was two-three years ago. No patience for 28 year old defenseman with solid track record and over 500 games though, only 25 year old defensemen with 80 career games.
Still in denial about the cumulative effect of four major injuries, I see.

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Boston might be a trade partner for him. He played with Chara before and could help their depth because of the Seidenberg injury.
And they should get a chance to play together at the Olympics.

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01-09-2014, 11:24 AM
  #91
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Even if Mez gets back to where he was three years ago, despite all the injuries, then what? We've got a sheltered-as-hell 4 million dollar defenseman. That's awful.

We would be better off rolling with the guy who's been better than Mez the last two years in similar amounts of games and costs significantly less. We should be getting Gus experience and development to keep him around as a cheap PMD option...not giving games to a broken down Mez who really should be gone ASAP.

You can count Mez's good games on one hand, even after getting that hand mangled in an industrial accident. You can do the same for Gus' bad games. This should be a no-brainer.

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01-09-2014, 11:46 AM
  #92
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Still in denial about the cumulative effect of four major injuries, I see.
Not really in denial but ok. Patience doesn't apply to guys coming back form injury? Big injury to an ancient 28 year old means you write him off if his first 40 or so games back aren't as good as they were before the injury. What if he was 27? 26? 25? 30? How long does one have to recover from an injury?

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Even if Mez gets back to where he was three years ago, despite all the injuries, then what? We've got a sheltered-as-hell 4 million dollar defenseman. That's awful.

We would be better off rolling with the guy who's been better than Mez the last two years in similar amounts of games and costs significantly less. We should be getting Gus experience and development to keep him around as a cheap PMD option...not giving games to a broken down Mez who really should be gone ASAP.

You can count Mez's good games on one hand, even after getting that hand mangled in an industrial accident. You can do the same for Gus' bad games. This should be a no-brainer.
Two things here:

1) Again you are bringing contracts into something that has nothing to do with contracts. If he is on the team and under the cap, it is completely irrelevant what his cap hit is. I am completely unopposed to trading Mesz just to be clear, but the fact that he makes $4 million and Gus makes whatever should not come in to play if both guys are on the team and under the cap. You play the better player, not the better contract. If that's Mesz, it's Mesz. If Gus, then go Gus. Now if you want to talk about what direction you want to go next year or if you want to sign Mesz for that money, ok I am right htere with you, go with Gus. But their contracts are irrelevant if they are already signed and under the cap (if anything, you should probably play the guy you are paying more not less so at least you are paying him to do something).

2) I revert back to what I said in the offseason. I have no problem playing Gus over Mesz if he is playing better. I said it then I am saying it now. I even said that Gus is playing better than Mesz this season. You play the better player. But if Mesz starts playing well over the next few games, you don't sit him because Gus played slightly better than him a couple weeks ago.

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01-09-2014, 12:00 PM
  #93
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Mez was never very good. One of the most overrated players we have had in the last 10 years

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01-09-2014, 12:20 PM
  #94
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Meszaros' make-up going back to his days on the Senators is that he looks amazing when playing lower down the order, but gets exposed when asked to take on heavier lifting. If a team offers up a 2nd or decent prospect, Holmgren would be silly to not oblige.

It's a shame because he has teased us with his puck-moving ability, which would be such an asset on the current defense roster.

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01-09-2014, 12:40 PM
  #95
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Not really in denial but ok. Patience doesn't apply to guys coming back form injury? Big injury to an ancient 28 year old means you write him off if his first 40 or so games back aren't as good as they were before the injury. What if he was 27? 26? 25? 30? How long does one have to recover from an injury?



Two things here:

1) Again you are bringing contracts into something that has nothing to do with contracts. If he is on the team and under the cap, it is completely irrelevant what his cap hit is. I am completely unopposed to trading Mesz just to be clear, but the fact that he makes $4 million and Gus makes whatever should not come in to play if both guys are on the team and under the cap. You play the better player, not the better contract. If that's Mesz, it's Mesz. If Gus, then go Gus. Now if you want to talk about what direction you want to go next year or if you want to sign Mesz for that money, ok I am right htere with you, go with Gus. But their contracts are irrelevant if they are already signed and under the cap (if anything, you should probably play the guy you are paying more not less so at least you are paying him to do something).

2) I revert back to what I said in the offseason. I have no problem playing Gus over Mesz if he is playing better. I said it then I am saying it now. I even said that Gus is playing better than Mesz this season. You play the better player. But if Mesz starts playing well over the next few games, you don't sit him because Gus played slightly better than him a couple weeks ago.
Contracts ALWAYS matter in the cap era. We have no idea what sort of moves Homer has contemplated, but been unable to do because of the cap situation. Mez is not worth his contract, at all, and with his injury history he's really not worth re-signing either. Gus is in a situation where he is worth his contract and he is worth re-signing. With all that in mind, Mez should be on the back burner in favor of getting Gus more experience.

Edit: Blair Betts was only an "ancient" 29-30 years old when cumulative injuries affected and ended his career. So yeah, it's entirely possible that Mez will never fully recover from his several major injuries. Gagne was a similar age. He's only human.


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01-09-2014, 12:42 PM
  #96
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Maybe they can trick Boston to trading Ryan Spooner or Reilly Smith!

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01-09-2014, 12:50 PM
  #97
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Yes he's been doing better, but that is not saying very much considering how awful he's been (for a while). Even when he was good for us he wasn't that good, and he's been bad and/or injured for more of his career than he's been good. If a team offered anything halfway decent for him I would take it.

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01-09-2014, 12:53 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Contracts ALWAYS matter in the cap era. We have no idea what sort of moves Homer has contemplated, but been unable to do because of the cap situation. Mez is not worth his contract, at all, and with his injury history he's really not worth re-signing either. Gus is in a situation where he is worth his contract and he is worth re-signing. With all that in mind, Mez should be on the back burner in favor of getting Gus more experience.
But again, he already is on the team. Bringing his contract into the discussion is meaningless. He was acquired years ago, and while there is a certainty that different moves would have been made if Mesz wasn't here, that should have no bearing on his playing time right now. Moving forward to this offseason, absolutely. If I am choosing between Mesz at $4 million and Gus at $1 million, it would not even be an issue. I've said that since this offseason. But since they are both on the team, what do their salaries have to do with anything? Answer: nothing. You want to trade one, trade Mesz. You want to waive one, waive Mesz. You want to let one walk in UFA, let Mesz walk. 100% agreement. Have been since this discussion started. But they are both on the team. The team is under the Cap. Mesz playing and Mesz sitting in the pressbox has the same impact on the cap. In other words, their contracts are irrelevant at this point.

Quote:
Edit: Blair Betts was only an "ancient" 29-30 years old when cumulative injuries affected and ended his career. So yeah, it's entirely possible that Mez will never fully recover from his several major injuries. He's only human.
Absolutely. I don't believe I ever said, nor would I say, that Mesz is going to recover and be the player he once was. I don't even think I said that he would come close to that. I think what I said was that IF he comes close to that, I'd prefer him over Gus. I also wonder why we don't have patience for a guy returning from injury who once was a good player, but we do have patience for a guy three years younger with 20% of the games played and mediocre track record during that time. That is the part I don't get.

Gus: Patience, he's good and will only get better because he hasn't been terrible in his first NHL season (which has been spread out over four years).

Mesz: He got hurt and he is overpaid so there is no point in having patience with him.

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01-09-2014, 12:53 PM
  #99
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the Andrew Bynum of the NHL and the whole league is aware, good luck on any return

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01-09-2014, 12:56 PM
  #100
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But again, he already is on the team. Bringing his contract into the discussion is meaningless. He was acquired years ago, and while there is a certainty that different moves would have been made if Mesz wasn't here, that should have no bearing on his playing time right now. Moving forward to this offseason, absolutely. If I am choosing between Mesz at $4 million and Gus at $1 million, it would not even be an issue. I've said that since this offseason. But since they are both on the team, what do their salaries have to do with anything? Answer: nothing. You want to trade one, trade Mesz. You want to waive one, waive Mesz. You want to let one walk in UFA, let Mesz walk. 100% agreement. Have been since this discussion started. But they are both on the team. The team is under the Cap. Mesz playing and Mesz sitting in the pressbox has the same impact on the cap. In other words, their contracts are irrelevant at this point.



Absolutely. I don't believe I ever said, nor would I say, that Mesz is going to recover and be the player he once was. I don't even think I said that he would come close to that. I think what I said was that IF he comes close to that, I'd prefer him over Gus. I also wonder why we don't have patience for a guy returning from injury who once was a good player, but we do have patience for a guy three years younger with 20% of the games played and mediocre track record during that time. That is the part I don't get.

Gus: Patience, he's good and will only get better because he hasn't been terrible in his first NHL season (which has been spread out over four years).

Mesz: He got hurt and he is overpaid so there is no point in having patience with him.
You really don't see the difference between being patient with an inexpensive guy with a good health record and an expensive guy with a miserable health record?


I see you still don't understand how the cap era works. Being on the team doesn't automatically justify that cap hit or mean it has zero consequences. It's not something that only matters in the offseason. We don't really have cap room to work with if we want to make a trade. If a trade has to be made, we are going to have to make Mez go away. Making Mez go away if there aren't any takers will leave us in a situation where we have to pay someone to take him. That's bad. It handcuffs Homer just by existing, and inhibits his ability to improve the team.

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