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01-09-2014, 12:59 PM
  #101
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Just one thing, Gus doesn't have a good health record. Yes, better than Mez(who isn't, guy suffered some major injuries) but Gus always seems to come down with nagging injuries that force him to miss 2-3 weeks at a time.

I say trade em all!

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01-09-2014, 01:00 PM
  #102
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It's the same reason people were impatient with Bryzgalov vs. patient with Bobrovsky.

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01-09-2014, 01:01 PM
  #103
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I actually like where the Flyers are right now in terms of defensive prospects. Not only are Hagg, Morin and Gostisbehere showing promise, but on the forward side Laughton can add a solid forward defensive dynamic.

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01-09-2014, 01:01 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You really don't see the difference between being patient with an inexpensive guy with a good health record and an expensive guy with a miserable health record?


I see you still don't understand how the cap era works. Being on the team doesn't automatically justify that cap hit or mean it has zero consequences. It's not something that only matters in the offseason. We don't really have cap room to work with if we want to make a trade. If a trade has to be made, we are going to have to make Mez go away. Making Mez go away if there aren't any takers will leave us in a situation where we have to pay someone to take him. That's bad. It handcuffs Homer just by existing, and inhibits his ability to improve the team.
they are only meaningless, worthless draft picks anyway that they would have to trade to have someone take him. I mean what are the odds those 2nd and 3rd rounders ever become something. might as well trade em so we dont have to worry about them

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01-09-2014, 01:04 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Just one thing, Gus doesn't have a good health record. Yes, better than Mez(who isn't, guy suffered some major injuries) but Gus always seems to come down with nagging injuries that force him to miss 2-3 weeks at a time.

I say trade em all!
When did this happen? He missed 6 weeks for surgery in 2011, otherwise he's only been injured for a few days. The real issue comes from him getting injured for a day or two and then getting benched for several games or sent down. Or, you know, flat out benched for two weeks for no apparent reason.

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fan...pdates/1776609

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01-09-2014, 01:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
When did this happen? He missed 6 weeks for surgery in 2011, otherwise he's only been injured for a few days. The real issue comes from him getting injured for a day or two and then getting benched for several games or sent down. Or, you know, flat out benched for two weeks for no apparent reason.

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fan...pdates/1776609
I thought he had a foot injury too that kept him out for a while down on the Phantoms. Didn't research anything, was just going off my memory, which hasn't served me well in my past....

Seems like I was thinking of the bone bruise, I believe when that happened they feared he broke his foot.

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01-09-2014, 01:13 PM
  #107
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I thought he had a foot injury too that kept him out for a while down on the Phantoms. Didn't research anything, was just going off my memory, which hasn't served me well in my past....

Seems like I was thinking of the bone bruise, I believe when that happened they feared he broke his foot.
Perhaps you're thinking of Wellwood? I can't recall a Gus foot injury off the top of my head.

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01-09-2014, 01:28 PM
  #108
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I actually like where the Flyers are right now in terms of defensive prospects. Not only are Hagg, Morin and Gostisbehere showing promise, but on the forward side Laughton can add a solid forward defensive dynamic.
While he will not be as dynamic I still think Alt will be a more steady long term d man then Ghost and Hagg. Rob Scuderi type.

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01-09-2014, 01:53 PM
  #109
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He clearly doesn't have top pairing potential, but to say he can't return to the level of a #4 guy is pretty ignorant. I'm not saying I think we should hang onto the guy because I'm pretty sure he's going to take a nice injury again sooner than we'd like to think. I also didn't come in here to compare him to Gus. The fact is that he hasn't got to play through any decent amount of games in the last few years and now that he has, he's starting to turn some corners albeit still showing many weaknesses. Either way he is an NHL caliber asset on the back end and has straight up shown to be a gamebreaker for us in recent history with glimpses of offensive potential from the back end-- something that everyone here agrees that we're sorely in need of. Ill take these isolated and timely situational occurrences right now against a younger younger somewhat equally as liable dman who hasnt contributed gamebreaking plays for us on a rough road back from the basement of the league. We're playing great hockey as a team and he's proving to be part of that-- He is a great dressing room guy aswell. Aside from that, cultivating his recent improved play is the only way to get something out of him both from the perspective of our on ice team or return in a trade. Im rooting for the guy.

It's pretty lame that so many people on here have started referring to these new stat lines to make up for their lack of real game knowledge and ability to see impacts between the lines. While they have a story to tell of their own, there's nothing that compares to watching the games and having an eye and mind for the game.

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01-09-2014, 02:01 PM
  #110
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I'm watching the games. Mez has sucked in a LOT of them, including recently. Was it only a week ago where he stood around, staring at the puck at his feet, Making it hard for Mason to cover while opposing forwards fought Mason for it? He just freaking stood there. One movement and he could have sent it to the corner...nah. We'll just leave this here in a bad area.

Their schedule has been pretty easily recently. When we start facing legitimately good offenses I don't want Mez anywhere near them.

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01-09-2014, 02:03 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You really don't see the difference between being patient with an inexpensive guy with a good health record and an expensive guy with a miserable health record?
You really don't see the difference between being patient with a 28 year-old former consistent 30 point defenseman and being patient with a 25 year old with less than 30 points in his entire career? I'm not saying don't be patient with Gus and to get rid of Gus or trade Gus or saying that Gus isn't worth having on the team. I'm simply saying that if you are going to preach patience, you gotta be consistent. Patience with a draft pick is no difference than patience with a veteran. Mesz could just as easily rebound next season to be a legit top 4 guy as could Gus. Hell, if we were betting, the safer bet in my mind would be that Mesz is more likely to be a top 4 guy again. Why? Because he already did it consistently before being injured. Gus has a shot to some day be a top four guy, but he has never done it, despite people's insistence that an 80 game sample over four years where for part of it maybe he showed flashes of a top four defender.

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I see you still don't understand how the cap era works. Being on the team doesn't automatically justify that cap hit or mean it has zero consequences. It's not something that only matters in the offseason. We don't really have cap room to work with if we want to make a trade. If a trade has to be made, we are going to have to make Mez go away. Making Mez go away if there aren't any takers will leave us in a situation where we have to pay someone to take him. That's bad. It handcuffs Homer just by existing, and inhibits his ability to improve the team.
I think you are completely missing what I am saying. I am not saying Mesz's contract is good. I am not saying we should re-sign Mesz. I am not saying that he is worth the contract. But he is already signed. His contract is what it is. It should not affect his playing time. The handcuffs related to the contract are there whether he is in the press box or on the ice for 25 minutes a night. He's overpaid at this point. No argument here. But being overpaid is not a reason to bench someone. If someone is playing better than him, bench away. No doubt in my mind that is the right move. But if you are going to tell me that you are going to put a better contract on the ice instead of a better player, then you are out of your mind.

Again, if your argument is that Gus is PLAYING better so he should be play, fine. Not really going to get an argument here (though I don't think Gus's play is as far above Mesz's this season as you are making it out to be). But if your argument is that Gus is younger and has a better contract so he should play, you are being ridiculous (unless you are committing to a full re-build, which doesn't seem like it is the case given the standings).

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01-09-2014, 02:05 PM
  #112
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1) Gus is playing better

2) There's no way to know Mez will take a sizable paycut. Gus is likely the cheaper option going forward. He's the 4-6 guy of the future. He should be playing and getting experience over Mez.

And:

3) Yeah, you clearly, CLEARLY don't see the difference between a guy with a good health record and a guy with a terrible health record. Mez's 30 point seasons came before his string of major injuries. He hasn't been that guy in ages. You clearly don't understand the difference between "Patience for patience' sake" (what you're preaching) and "patience within reason." Should we have been patient with Betts? Should we sign Gagne and wait for him to return to form? His health record, his actual play, his stats, and his cap hit do nothing to promote patience for Mez.

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01-09-2014, 02:17 PM
  #113
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nothing matters at this point.

just get him off the team. either trade him or let his contract expire.

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01-09-2014, 02:47 PM
  #114
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1) Gus is playing better
Not really arguing there. Like I've said from the beginning, play the better player. If Mesz plays like he did last night for a couple games in a row, leave him in there.

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2) There's no way to know Mez will take a sizable paycut. Gus is likely the cheaper option going forward. He's the 4-6 guy of the future. He should be playing and getting experience over Mez.
I agree with everything but the bolded. If this team was ina re-build, that's fine. Let the younger guys play and go with whoever helps you for the future. But this team is not in the midst of a rebound. They are in 2nd place in the division currently and playing very well. Play the guy playing better. Gus hasn't earned the spot to be his in perpetuity at this point. He's not Kimmo Timonen or Braydon Coburn. He has a bad game or two or someone plays well in his absence during an injury, he's gonna ride the pine.

Quote:
And:

3) Yeah, you clearly, CLEARLY don't see the difference between a guy with a good health record and a guy with a terrible health record. Mez's 30 point seasons came before his string of major injuries. He hasn't been that guy in ages. You clearly don't understand the difference between "Patience for patience' sake" (what you're preaching) and "patience within reason." Should we have been patient with Betts? Should we sign Gagne and wait for him to return to form? His health record, his actual play, his stats, and his cap hit do nothing to promote patience for Mez.
It hasn't been ages since Mesz has been that player. It was two seasons ago. His play this year has not been as bad as you have made it seem. You are right, you don't have patience for patience sake, but you also don't just say "**** it he is injured move on" when he is a player that has shown he can be a valuable piece. Blair Betts was never the player that Meszaros was, he was a replaceable 4th liner, not a top four defenseman. Simone Gagne is five years older and hasn't played a full season in a decade. And key to both of these players is that they are not on the last year of their contract. Now, if Gagne and Betts were still here and playing, yes, I would be patient with them. I wouldn't slot Tye McGinn in over Gagne or somethign to that effect just because he is younger and cheaper.

Once again, if we are talking about signing someone new or acquiring someone, obviously you DO NOT go after the older, overpaid, more injury prone player. However, if these players are already signed and have only recently become older, overpaid, and injured, you don't sit them out of spite or out of the desire to see someone with a small contract or younger age on the ice. Unless, of course you are in the process of a rebuild, in which case I would have no problem.

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01-09-2014, 03:32 PM
  #115
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I agree with everything but the bolded. If this team was ina re-build, that's fine. Let the younger guys play and go with whoever helps you for the future. But this team is not in the midst of a rebound. They are in 2nd place in the division currently and playing very well. Play the guy playing better. Gus hasn't earned the spot to be his in perpetuity at this point. He's not Kimmo Timonen or Braydon Coburn. He has a bad game or two or someone plays well in his absence during an injury, he's gonna ride the pine.
They're second in a really weak division. This team is not a realistic Cup contender at this point. The 4th line is too weak and the D group isn't good enough overall. The offense is ranked 19th, which is WAY too low for a realistic Cup contender.

If Gus is the better player overall as well as a likely guy to be playing in the future, you play him over Mez. The difference between Mez and Gus won't make or break the team this year, and it's beneficial in the long term to let him get experience.

As for him riding the pine after a bad game, that's part of the idiotic stance this organization has towards young Dmen. That's part of the problem. That's part of why we have been incapable of developing anybody. You have to let players play.



Quote:
It hasn't been ages since Mesz has been that player. It was two seasons ago. His play this year has not been as bad as you have made it seem. You are right, you don't have patience for patience sake, but you also don't just say "**** it he is injured move on" when he is a player that has shown he can be a valuable piece. Blair Betts was never the player that Meszaros was, he was a replaceable 4th liner, not a top four defenseman. Simone Gagne is five years older and hasn't played a full season in a decade. And key to both of these players is that they are not on the last year of their contract. Now, if Gagne and Betts were still here and playing, yes, I would be patient with them. I wouldn't slot Tye McGinn in over Gagne or somethign to that effect just because he is younger and cheaper.
He's not "just injured." He was pretty severely injured, several times, missing significant amounts of time and getting a lot of surgery. You keep hoping he'll play on like those injuries never happened, but every since his injury woes began that simply hasn't happened, including going into this year. I'm not moving on because got injured. I'm moving on because got injured and has been a bad player since h was injured, even with sheltered competition.

Mez is NOT a top 4 Dman. He never has been while he's been here. You're confusing him With Pronger, Carle, Coburn, Timonen, Schenn, or Grosmann. He's been a 3rd pairing guy the whole time.

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Once again, if we are talking about signing someone new or acquiring someone, obviously you DO NOT go after the older, overpaid, more injury prone player. However, if these players are already signed and have only recently become older, overpaid, and injured, you don't sit them out of spite or out of the desire to see someone with a small contract or younger age on the ice. Unless, of course you are in the process of a rebuild, in which case I would have no problem.
We are in the process of a rebuild. The D is looking at an overhaul very shortly. The forward group is still developing. Gus is part of that overhaul; a good 3rd pairing guy who has shown competency in the top 4 in the past, who has only ever gotten better overall with more playing time and more experience. So yeah, he should 100% be playing over Mez who should only be a fill-in at this point. Mez is the past. Gus is not.

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01-09-2014, 03:42 PM
  #116
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They're second in a really weak division. This team is not a realistic Cup contender at this point. The 4th line is too weak and the D group isn't good enough overall. The offense is ranked 19th, which is WAY too low for a realistic Cup contender.
You just have to get in to the playoffs to be a realistic Cup contender. Some terrible teams have made it much farther than anyone believed they could.

Also, if 19th is too low, the Kings are close to the greatest miracle of all-time when they won (29th in goals for in 2012).

The playoffs are about match-ups, almost as much as anything else. 2010 was a great example for that.

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01-09-2014, 03:44 PM
  #117
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You just have to get in to the playoffs to be a realistic Cup contender. Some terrible teams have made it much farther than anyone believed they could.

Also, if 19th is too low, the Kings are close to the greatest miracle of all-time when they won (29th in goals for in 2012).

The playoffs are about match-ups, almost as much as anything else. 2010 was a great example for that.
The Kings were also first overall in goals for after the Carter trade; so they had an acquisition that changed their team in a big way. The early season offense that largely generated those stats wasn't the same offense that won the Cup.

Yes, luck and matchups are also crucial....but outside of Montreal, I can't say I'd be comfortable against anybody.

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01-09-2014, 03:46 PM
  #118
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The Kings were also first overall in goals for after the Carter trade; so they had an acquisition that changed their team in a big way. The early season offense that largely generated those stats wasn't the same offense that won the Cup.
Maybe the Flyers could do the same thing....

#HOPEFUL

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01-09-2014, 03:48 PM
  #119
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The Kings were also first overall in goals for after the Carter trade; so they had an acquisition that changed their team in a big way. The early season offense that largely generated those stats wasn't the same offense that won the Cup.
Carter only played 15 or so regular season games for the Kings and scored 6 goals, I think. The Kings were a black hole on offense in 2011/12 that happened to get hot at the right time, have a hot goalie and get some favourable match-ups along the way to the Cup (Vancouver, St. Louis, Phoenix, New Jersey is about as great a run as you can get).

Edit: The Kings also scored 63 goals in 21 games after the Carter acquisition; I can't believe that led the league.


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01-09-2014, 03:50 PM
  #120
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Happiness is a hot Mesz.

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01-09-2014, 03:52 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They're second in a really weak division. This team is not a realistic Cup contender at this point. The 4th line is too weak and the D group isn't good enough overall. The offense is ranked 19th, which is WAY too low for a realistic Cup contender.
I don't disagree, but if you aren't playing for a lottery pick, you are not in a rebuild. They are competing for a Cup, and you play the better player.

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If Gus is the better player overall as well as a likely guy to be playing in the future, you play him over Mez. The difference between Mez and Gus won't make or break the team this year, and it's beneficial in the long term to let him get experience.
Maybe this is where we really fundamentally disagree. You are calling a 25 year old with 80 games spread over four seasons a better player than a 28 year old with 500+ NHL games. You are basing this on one player's 40 or so games since being injured. I am not saying that Mesz is the same player he was before his injuries, but I am saying that he doesn't lose his entire track record because he got hurt and played poorly in the part of the season after his injury (just like Gus doesn't gain all this credibility based on parts of 80 games spread over parts of 4 seasons where he looked good). It just doesn't work that way.

At what point did Mesz lose the credit for his previous 500 games? If Timonen struggled after an injury, does he lose his spot? Coburn? Grossmann? What does a player have to do to keep his spot after an injury? Is it just because he is overpaid? If he was making $3 million would that make him a better player? If Gus gets hurt (again) and struggles in the 11 games after he comes back, are we done with him?

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As for him riding the pine after a bad game, that's part of the idiotic stance this organization has towards young Dmen. That's part of the problem. That's part of why we have been incapable of developing anybody. You have to let players play.
Define "young." If 25 is young, what is 28? At what point do you stop being young? You want Gus to play this year despite mistakes or bad games, ok fine. What about next year. Is he still young next year? how about 27?

[quote[He's not "just injured." He was pretty severely injured, several times, missing significant amounts of time and getting a lot of surgery. You keep hoping he'll play on like those injuries never happened, but every since his injury woes began that simply hasn't happened, including going into this year. I'm not moving on because got injured. I'm moving on because got injured and has been a bad player since h was injured, even with sheltered competition.[/quote]

I'm not hoping for anything. I am saying if he is playing well, let him keep playing. If he isn't, bench him. He's under contract. He's not going anywhere until he is traded or walks in free agency. No reason not play him if he is playing well.

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Mez is NOT a top 4 Dman. He never has been while he's been here. You're confusing him With Pronger, Carle, Coburn, Timonen, Schenn, or Grosmann. He's been a 3rd pairing guy the whole time.
Right now, you are right. He's not a top 4 defenseman. I agree completely. But he had top four abilities before his injuries, even abilities that surpass that of Gus. He's battling back from injuries, he's played in like 40 games since his big injury two years ago. It is by no means a guarantee that he'll ever even get close to that form again, but it certainly isn't some outlandish statement to think that a 28 year old, even after a serious injury, would be able to return to close to his old form.

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We are in the process of a rebuild. The D is looking at an overhaul very shortly. The forward group is still developing. Gus is part of that overhaul; a good 3rd pairing guy who has shown competency in the top 4 in the past, who has only ever gotten better overall with more playing time and more experience. So yeah, he should 100% be playing over Mez who should only be a fill-in at this point. Mez is the past. Gus is not.
This is not a rebuild. Edmonton is in a rebuild. Buffalo is in a rebuild. A rebuild doesn't mean your best defenseman will need replacement in the offseason. That is an issue, for sure, but it is not a rebuild.

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01-09-2014, 03:53 PM
  #122
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Carter only played 15 or so regular season games for the Kings and scored 6 goals, I think. The Kings were a black hole on offense in 2011/12 that happened to get hot at the right time, have a hot goalie and get some favourable match-ups along the way to the Cup (Vancouver, St. Louis, Phoenix, New Jersey is about as great a run as you can get).
As LA fans describe it, Carter's acquisition opened up room for everyone else to score because they suddenly had 3 potential scoring lines instead of 1 other teams could focus on. He basically completed their lineup; he as the final gear that got everything turning.

That team was like a very finely tuned machine to end the year...they were fantastic when everything was working, but if anything broke they would have been in trouble. Like Boston losing Krejci in 2010, LA losing any of Kopitar, Penner, Richards, Carter, Doughty, Quick (duh), or Brown would have been a huge blow to that team.

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01-09-2014, 04:01 PM
  #123
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huge 3 points last night but still a trainwreck in his own end for the most part.

gimmie gus.

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01-09-2014, 04:03 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As LA fans describe it, Carter's acquisition opened up room for everyone else to score because they suddenly had 3 potential scoring lines instead of 1 other teams could focus on. He basically completed their lineup; he as the final gear that got everything turning.

That team was like a very finely tuned machine to end the year...they were fantastic when everything was working, but if anything broke they would have been in trouble. Like Boston losing Krejci in 2010, LA losing any of Kopitar, Penner, Richards, Carter, Doughty, Quick (duh), or Brown would have been a huge blow to that team.
And they still could have missed the playoffs if not for Calgary's epic collapse.

No team looks perfect on paper and you'll see some of the best team's fans tell you why that team can't win.

I've jumped in a little off-topic here; I'll show myself out.

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01-09-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't disagree, but if you aren't playing for a lottery pick, you are not in a rebuild. They are competing for a Cup, and you play the better player.



Maybe this is where we really fundamentally disagree. You are calling a 25 year old with 80 games spread over four seasons a better player than a 28 year old with 500+ NHL games. You are basing this on one player's 40 or so games since being injured. I am not saying that Mesz is the same player he was before his injuries, but I am saying that he doesn't lose his entire track record because he got hurt and played poorly in the part of the season after his injury (just like Gus doesn't gain all this credibility based on parts of 80 games spread over parts of 4 seasons where he looked good). It just doesn't work that way.

At what point did Mesz lose the credit for his previous 500 games? If Timonen struggled after an injury, does he lose his spot? Coburn? Grossmann? What does a player have to do to keep his spot after an injury? Is it just because he is overpaid? If he was making $3 million would that make him a better player? If Gus gets hurt (again) and struggles in the 11 games after he comes back, are we done with him?



Define "young." If 25 is young, what is 28? At what point do you stop being young? You want Gus to play this year despite mistakes or bad games, ok fine. What about next year. Is he still young next year? how about 27?

[quote[He's not "just injured." He was pretty severely injured, several times, missing significant amounts of time and getting a lot of surgery. You keep hoping he'll play on like those injuries never happened, but every since his injury woes began that simply hasn't happened, including going into this year. I'm not moving on because got injured. I'm moving on because got injured and has been a bad player since h was injured, even with sheltered competition.
I'm not hoping for anything. I am saying if he is playing well, let him keep playing. If he isn't, bench him. He's under contract. He's not going anywhere until he is traded or walks in free agency. No reason not play him if he is playing well.



Right now, you are right. He's not a top 4 defenseman. I agree completely. But he had top four abilities before his injuries, even abilities that surpass that of Gus. He's battling back from injuries, he's played in like 40 games since his big injury two years ago. It is by no means a guarantee that he'll ever even get close to that form again, but it certainly isn't some outlandish statement to think that a 28 year old, even after a serious injury, would be able to return to close to his old form.



This is not a rebuild. Edmonton is in a rebuild. Buffalo is in a rebuild. A rebuild doesn't mean your best defenseman will need replacement in the offseason. That is an issue, for sure, but it is not a rebuild.[/QUOTE]

I'm not playing this dissection game again.

1) you have an overly strict definition of a rebuild. The Flyers have been running a flying rebuild since June 23, 2011. Phase 3 (Phase 2: Goaltending) is set to start with the defense. This is a team that's building.

2) Yes, there is good reason to bench Mez. You bench Mez so the better player who will be here in the future over him can get his playing time in to continue improving.

3) What has Mez shown that leads you to believe he'll get back to his original form? I'm perfectly fine with letting him try to get back to his original form somewhere else. Unless he's willing to sign for 2 mil or less it's just not worth the risk...even then he would be largely redundant.

How many dmen like Mez can you think of who had major injuries and were able to come back as good as ever? Salo? Well...Salo was/is far better than Mez, so I'm not quite sure that's the best example. Can you think of any 3rd pairing Dmen to suffer those sorts of injuries and make a full comeback? I can't. I'm willing to bet it's very rare.

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