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Old
01-09-2014, 05:14 PM
  #126
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm not hoping for anything. I am saying if he is playing well, let him keep playing. If he isn't, bench him. He's under contract. He's not going anywhere until he is traded or walks in free agency. No reason not play him if he is playing well.



Right now, you are right. He's not a top 4 defenseman. I agree completely. But he had top four abilities before his injuries, even abilities that surpass that of Gus. He's battling back from injuries, he's played in like 40 games since his big injury two years ago. It is by no means a guarantee that he'll ever even get close to that form again, but it certainly isn't some outlandish statement to think that a 28 year old, even after a serious injury, would be able to return to close to his old form.



This is not a rebuild. Edmonton is in a rebuild. Buffalo is in a rebuild. A rebuild doesn't mean your best defenseman will need replacement in the offseason. That is an issue, for sure, but it is not a rebuild.
I'm not playing this dissection game again.

1) you have an overly strict definition of a rebuild. The Flyers have been running a flying rebuild since June 23, 2011. Phase 3 (Phase 2: Goaltending) is set to start with the defense. This is a team that's building.

2) Yes, there is good reason to bench Mez. You bench Mez so the better player who will be here in the future over him can get his playing time in to continue improving.

3) What has Mez shown that leads you to believe he'll get back to his original form? I'm perfectly fine with letting him try to get back to his original form somewhere else. Unless he's willing to sign for 2 mil or less it's just not worth the risk...even then he would be largely redundant.

How many dmen like Mez can you think of who had major injuries and were able to come back as good as ever? Salo? Well...Salo was/is far better than Mez, so I'm not quite sure that's the best example. Can you think of any 3rd pairing Dmen to suffer those sorts of injuries and make a full comeback? I can't. I'm willing to bet it's very rare.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what I'd call Edmonton and Buffalo. It's like they're trying to rebuild a stone church using a combination of K'Nex and Legos.

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Old
01-09-2014, 06:26 PM
  #127
jabba2
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Anyone think Mez is traded at the deadline? Some GM might think he can be the missing piece to a dynamic top 6 PMD. I dunno but its possible.

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01-09-2014, 07:09 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm not playing this dissection game again.

1) you have an overly strict definition of a rebuild. The Flyers have been running a flying rebuild since June 23, 2011. Phase 3 (Phase 2: Goaltending) is set to start with the defense. This is a team that's building.
I wouldn't call it a rebuild. Rebuild implies starting from scratch, lottery picks, no serious UFAs, etc. The Flyers have made changes, gotten younger, etc., but are not rebuilding any more than the other teams in the league always looking to improve. If the Flyers are going to play Gus to get him experience, why not play McGinn, Akeson, and Holmstrom over Adam Hall, Scott Hartnell, and other guys who either aren't going to be around much longer or are struggling? Why sign VL? Maybe because this isn't a rebuilding team.

Quote:
2) Yes, there is good reason to bench Mez. You bench Mez so the better player who will be here in the future over him can get his playing time in to continue improving.
It isn't like Gus can't be replaced. Us a 25 year old bottom pairing defender. I reckon he could be replaced quite easily via free agency at a comparable price for a comparable player. He'll be up for a raise this year as well. What do you think he should get? $1.5 mil? $2.0? The future of this team will not be affected by the play of Erik Gustaffsson this or any season.

Quote:
3) What has Mez shown that leads you to believe he'll get back to his original form? I'm perfectly fine with letting him try to get back to his original form somewhere else. Unless he's willing to sign for 2 mil or less it's just not worth the risk...even then he would be largely redundant.
This is where patience comes in to play. He played 11 games last year and got hurt again. Now he's played 24 games this season. Despite your insistence, Mez has not been as bad as you are implying. Even Appleyard pointed out that where Gus is ahead, the margin isn't that big. So why not have patience with a guy before injuries played at a high level and proved to be a valuable defender? His play has fallen since his injuries for sure, but he is still a viable option.

Are you convinced that 24 games after an injury he has shown it all? Is it just because the injury? Is it his age? What if Gus plays like **** for the rest of the year? Patience for him? What if a player that isn't overpaid gets hurt and comes back slow? Patience?

Quote:
How many dmen like Mez can you think of who had major injuries and were able to come back as good as ever? Salo? Well...Salo was/is far better than Mez, so I'm not quite sure that's the best example. Can you think of any 3rd pairing Dmen to suffer those sorts of injuries and make a full comeback? I can't. I'm willing to bet it's very rare.
I don't know of any off-hand, but I have never been under the impression that a 28 year old suffering an injury, even a serious one, has such a small chance to get back to form. It isn't automatic by any means, but guys return from injury every single year. Good players and bad players. Serious and not serious. This isn't some shocking outlandish argument I am making. I'm not saying he's going to be Bobby Or. I'm not saying he's even going to be old Andrej Meszaros. I'm just saying at his current state, he's playing fine, arguably about the same level as Gus (I know, I know, they aren't even close and I am crazy), even if he improves only to a level closer to where he was he'd be better than Gus, and he has shown he has that ability over 500 game career before the injury.

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Old
01-09-2014, 07:50 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You really don't see the difference between being patient with a 28 year-old former consistent 30 point defenseman and being patient with a 25 year old with less than 30 points in his entire career? I'm not saying don't be patient with Gus and to get rid of Gus or trade Gus or saying that Gus isn't worth having on the team. I'm simply saying that if you are going to preach patience, you gotta be consistent. Patience with a draft pick is no difference than patience with a veteran. Mesz could just as easily rebound next season to be a legit top 4 guy as could Gus. Hell, if we were betting, the safer bet in my mind would be that Mesz is more likely to be a top 4 guy again. Why? Because he already did it consistently before being injured. Gus has a shot to some day be a top four guy, but he has never done it, despite people's insistence that an 80 game sample over four years where for part of it maybe he showed flashes of a top four defender.



I think you are completely missing what I am saying. I am not saying Mesz's contract is good. I am not saying we should re-sign Mesz. I am not saying that he is worth the contract. But he is already signed. His contract is what it is. It should not affect his playing time. The handcuffs related to the contract are there whether he is in the press box or on the ice for 25 minutes a night. He's overpaid at this point. No argument here. But being overpaid is not a reason to bench someone. If someone is playing better than him, bench away. No doubt in my mind that is the right move. But if you are going to tell me that you are going to put a better contract on the ice instead of a better player, then you are out of your mind.

Again, if your argument is that Gus is PLAYING better so he should be play, fine. Not really going to get an argument here (though I don't think Gus's play is as far above Mesz's this season as you are making it out to be). But if your argument is that Gus is younger and has a better contract so he should play, you are being ridiculous (unless you are committing to a full re-build, which doesn't seem like it is the case given the standings).
You have a weird definition of consistent. His first three years were +30 points. Next two under 20 points. Then 32 points. Then 2 seasons under 30 points. Now this season which he isn't even on pace for 30 points over a full season which his is going to be far from playing. That's 4 seasons of over 30 points and 4 under 30 (and will likely be 5). One season of +30 points in the last 5 seasons (soon to be 6) That is the OPPOSITE of a consistent +30 point defenseman.

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Old
01-10-2014, 04:05 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
Anyone think Mez is traded at the deadline? Some GM might think he can be the missing piece to a dynamic top 6 PMD. I dunno but its possible.
Right now? No way. There are much better options on the market than a injury-prone mesz who fights for the #6 spot with a heavy cap hit.

BUT: The time is working fur us. When he continues to play better, being a regular, and plays a good olympic , is see a chance.

BTW i hope he gets traded!!

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Old
01-10-2014, 01:39 PM
  #131
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I like Mez when he's 100% healthy, but he's never 100% healthy. The guy is made of glass, I feel bad for him really. Most of the time it's painful just to watch him skate. He's not coming back next year, Gus should get on the job training.

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Old
01-10-2014, 05:31 PM
  #132
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I wouldn't trade Mez (because we won't get anything for him) But I also wouldn't scratch him for Gus. Gus is getting the prototypical Hockey's Future treatment: He's Younger, offensively minded, Has a unique draft status, and therefore has unlimited potential.

We see this all the time, and sometimes its spot on, but most of the time it's a bias towards "HOCKEY'S FUTURE" This is not the site called Hockey's Current.

With Meszaros, there is WAY more reward & potential than Gus. Meszaros may not be able to reach his old form, but if he can he's a #3 defenseman who works the PP. Gus will not run a PP, although he could become a 3/4.

Let mez have his last season, and playoffs. If he really cannot recover we let him go. If he shows glimpses of a come back, I'd take a shot on him (because most other teams won't take that chance)

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01-10-2014, 05:50 PM
  #133
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As far as Meszaros goes, he's playing better lately and he does have better offensive tools then the majority of our D, but he's been horrible for most of the season and it feels like he gets a lot of favoritism from the coaching staff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Carter only played 15 or so regular season games for the Kings and scored 6 goals, I think. The Kings were a black hole on offense in 2011/12 that happened to get hot at the right time, have a hot goalie and get some favourable match-ups along the way to the Cup (Vancouver, St. Louis, Phoenix, New Jersey is about as great a run as you can get).

Edit: The Kings also scored 63 goals in 21 games after the Carter acquisition; I can't believe that led the league.
Carter has been the best goal scorer on LA since his acquisition so he was definitely a good acquisition, but LA's Cup win was more flukey then any other Cup win in recent memory.

LA barely made it into the playoffs and weren't a good goal scoring team that season. Quick also posted some absurd stats way above his career numbers while the rest of the team got hot and the matchups worked out.

Even this season LA isn't doing as well as some of the better teams in the West and they're still struggling to score goals.

Not trying to discredit their Cup win as they are a very good team and the playoffs revolve around short sample sizes of teams getting hot, but on a personal level I really do see the LA Cup win as pretty flukey.

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Old
01-11-2014, 01:43 PM
  #134
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mez of late looks wayyyyy better than Gus mez is looking like the mez when we first acquired him

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01-11-2014, 01:51 PM
  #135
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He's definitely looking better. Lets hope it lasts.

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01-11-2014, 02:49 PM
  #136
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Looks good on offense making those flashy moves.


Too bad we pay him for D and he looks like **** there. Bad pinches, gets caught up ice numerous times a game. He'd still be first guy traded if I had control over it

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01-11-2014, 03:33 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Looks good on offense making those flashy moves.


Too bad we pay him for D and he looks like **** there. Bad pinches, gets caught up ice numerous times a game. He'd still be first guy traded if I had control over it
id trade hartnell first honestly hartnell is just completely bad he's had dome decent years but he can't skate constantly takes bad costly penalties just like in this game against Tampa no need foe that illegal hit but this organization loves him he's been on such a rapid decline he's def very irritating to watch, hello id rather deal with bryz's **** then continue with hartnells horrible play

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01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
  #138
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He has his confidence back offensively, unfortunately his D is still crap.

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01-11-2014, 03:40 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by kelmitchell View Post
id trade hartnell first honestly hartnell is just completely bad he's had dome decent years but he can't skate constantly takes bad costly penalties just like in this game against Tampa no need foe that illegal hit but this organization loves him he's been on such a rapid decline he's def very irritating to watch, hello id rather deal with bryz's **** then continue with hartnells horrible play
Hartnell's been playing really well the past couple weeks. Also, he has a NTC. For what they're getting paid, I'd rather move Meszaros

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01-11-2014, 03:51 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by kelmitchell View Post
id trade hartnell first honestly hartnell is just completely bad he's had dome decent years but he can't skate constantly takes bad costly penalties just like in this game against Tampa no need foe that illegal hit but this organization loves him he's been on such a rapid decline he's def very irritating to watch, hello id rather deal with bryz's **** then continue with hartnells horrible play
I like the way you slipped a comma in there. ..

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01-11-2014, 04:09 PM
  #141
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The reason I bench Mez is so that Gus can get playing time and so that if someone wants Mez he is healthy enough to be traded.
He is not in this teams future plans and he should be traded.
I am not worried that the team he goes to will miraculously win a Stanley cup.
He is not that great a defenseman that he can carry a team to a cup.


Last edited by DecadesofFutility: 01-11-2014 at 05:48 PM.
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01-11-2014, 04:15 PM
  #142
zarley zelepukin
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
As far as Meszaros goes, he's playing better lately and he does have better offensive tools then the majority of our D, but he's been horrible for most of the season and it feels like he gets a lot of favoritism from the coaching staff.



Carter has been the best goal scorer on LA since his acquisition so he was definitely a good acquisition, but LA's Cup win was more flukey then any other Cup win in recent memory.

LA barely made it into the playoffs and weren't a good goal scoring team that season. Quick also posted some absurd stats way above his career numbers while the rest of the team got hot and the matchups worked out.

Even this season LA isn't doing as well as some of the better teams in the West and they're still struggling to score goals.

Not trying to discredit their Cup win as they are a very good team and the playoffs revolve around short sample sizes of teams getting hot, but on a personal level I really do see the LA Cup win as pretty flukey.
Their goal numbers were bad for that season as a whole but as Beef pointed out, getting Carter changed things for the whole team and they led the league in goals once they got him. Didn't hurt that Richards seemed to get over whatever was lingering after his concussion that year. Yeah Quick had a great run too but it's not like they were barely beating teams. They steamrolled everybody.

Also, they were 10th in the league in goals last year. This year they're struggling a bit again with Brown having a bad year and no Penner to balance their top 6. They were never a deep team offensively and now there's just too much playing 4th liners with the first and second lines trying to look for balance.

Besides, their bread and butter is defense. Quick has missed almost half the season, wasn't playing well before he got hurt, and they still lead the league in goals against. Plus they went to the conference finals in back to back seasons. I don't see how anybody could still be calling them a fluke at this point.

As for Mez, it's good to see him jumping into things offensively. He may continue to hurt us sometimes in the defensive zone but at least he's showing that he can still do something to contribute. Might as well roll with him until he gets hurt or slumps again.

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Old
01-11-2014, 05:26 PM
  #143
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Mez is fine offensively, problem is he's a d-man and he continued to struggle today in his own zone.

Gus has been better defensively against the harder competition AND has better ppg numbers, meaning offense. They're both paired with Luke so it's not like Gus has the unfair advantage of having a steady d partner either. Additionally Mez takes loads of penalties and Gus doesn't, he only has 5 minors in his 80 game career. Mez has 8 in his 25 games played this season.

It's really not about Gus being some great player, Mez just sucks and it's really not debatable. For every good thing he does in the offensive zone he screws up twice defensively. He's just not helping the team most nights.

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01-11-2014, 06:03 PM
  #144
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It's nice to see him carry the puck deep into the offensive zone. He doesn't look like that guy early in his career, but with all the injuries, I don't think we'll ever see that guy again.

Mez's best quality is his slapper, right?

When is the last time he unleashed one?

I know he's playing the left side instead of the right side like he was the last few years. Just thought I would see him shoot more.

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01-11-2014, 06:05 PM
  #145
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Mez's best quality is his slapper, right?

When is the last time he unleashed one?
Had a one-timer today, does that count?

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01-11-2014, 06:07 PM
  #146
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Had a one-timer today, does that count?
Must have been channel surfing. I missed it.

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Old
01-11-2014, 06:35 PM
  #147
kelmitchell
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Hartnell's been playing really well the past couple weeks. Also, he has a NTC. For what they're getting paid, I'd rather move Meszaros
he has limited no trade clause so he can still be moved, but yes id move mez as well i just don't think hartnell should be in our future either

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01-11-2014, 06:36 PM
  #148
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Mesz is playing with a lot of confidence lately. Hopefully he impresses at the Olympics and can fetch something at the deadline. Unlikely to happen if this team is playing well though and Homer becomes an aggressive buyer though (please don't trade Laughton).

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01-12-2014, 09:21 AM
  #149
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It's great that Mez wants to contribute offensively and jump into the play, but if he's gonna make these bonehead defensive plays, it's moot.

Gus figures more into the Flyers' long-terms plans, so if he's healthy, there's really no excuse not to play him.

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01-12-2014, 04:21 PM
  #150
jabba2
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
It's great that Mez wants to contribute offensively and jump into the play, but if he's gonna make these bonehead defensive plays, it's moot.

Gus figures more into the Flyers' long-terms plans, so if he's healthy, there's really no excuse not to play him.
Yeah, Mez has puck moving skill and can create offense, but wow does he suck on the back end.

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