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Gretzky, Orr, Howe or Lemieux- Who revolutionized the game the most?

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Old
01-12-2014, 06:29 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Blikian29 View Post
Anyone who says Gretzky didn't change the game is out to lunch. He's the reason for both the coincidental minor 5-on-5 rule and the creation of the instigator rule.

Early in Gretzky's career, goaltenders were brutal. By the end of his career, goaltenders were some of the best athletes on the planet.

Early in Gretzky's career, "systems" were pretty trivial. By the end of his career, coaches were playing chess out there.

These are not coincidences.
i have to agree with this. Teams had to adapt playing against Gretzky more than any other player.

Orr wasn't the first defenseman who played great offensively. He just was by far the best.

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01-12-2014, 06:35 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by InfamousPF View Post
So who do you think it is?

I would say Orr.
Anyone who says anybody other than Orr has no clue as to how the game was played prior to him. Gretzky and Howe had no significant impact. In terms of rule changes, the man who caused the most was Carl Brewer.

Other players who should be on the list of changing the game are Jacque Plante for having the guts to come out with a mask, which changed the position of goalie forever, and Dave Schulz, who was the first NHL pure goon.

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01-12-2014, 06:48 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post

doug harvey created the modern offensive defensman and orr perfected it
This.


Originally Posted by Blikian29
Anyone who says Gretzky didn't change the game is out to lunch. He's the reason for both the coincidental minor 5-on-5 rule and the creation of the instigator rule.

Early in Gretzky's career, goaltenders were brutal. By the end of his career, goaltenders were some of the best athletes on the planet.

Early in Gretzky's career, "systems" were pretty trivial. By the end of his career, coaches were playing chess out there.

These are not coincidences.

And this.

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01-12-2014, 06:53 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PK16 View Post
This.


Originally Posted by Blikian29
Anyone who says Gretzky didn't change the game is out to lunch. He's the reason for both the coincidental minor 5-on-5 rule and the creation of the instigator rule.

Early in Gretzky's career, goaltenders were brutal. By the end of his career, goaltenders were some of the best athletes on the planet.

Early in Gretzky's career, "systems" were pretty trivial. By the end of his career, coaches were playing chess out there.

These are not coincidences.

And this.
Yeah anyone saying Gretzky did nothing to change the game is just plaid wrong.

Also like add the use of setting up behind the net to create scoring chances. There is a reason it was called Gretzky's house. And he'll, for the 5-5 penalty calls...it was called the Gretzky rule!!

The easiest way to say it is, Orr changed the game for d-men, Gretzky for forwards and Roy for goalies. All did things that changed the game of hockey as we know it.

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01-12-2014, 07:54 AM
  #30
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I got to see Bobby Orr play back in the early 70s ................He was on a whole nother planet when it comes to revolutionizing the position of Dman and hockey.........The guy was AWESOME !

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01-12-2014, 08:07 AM
  #31
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From that list I would say Orr.

But I would add Brodeur-they changed how goalies could handle the puck. Brodeur had new rules created because of his puck style of play.

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01-12-2014, 08:11 AM
  #32
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I was 7 when Orr retired and never had the pleasure to watch him

Anyone I ever spoke to about him said pretty much the exact same thing "he changed the way organizations viewed defenseman" and really, hasn`t he set the bar for being the best of all time??

I can think of many elite d-men who I still never hear mentioned in the same way they speak of Orr to this day about

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01-12-2014, 08:46 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
doug harvey created the modern offensive defensman and orr perfected it
I tend to agree with this. I think people are confusing domination with innovation/"revolution". Orr really didn't do anything different than Harvey, he just had the skills relative to his peers to be more dominant doing it. What really changed because of what Orr did or how he did it? Not much. But quite simply, no one has ever done it better.

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Originally Posted by PK16 View Post
Originally Posted by Blikian29
Anyone who says Gretzky didn't change the game is out to lunch. He's the reason for both the coincidental minor 5-on-5 rule and the creation of the instigator rule.

Early in Gretzky's career, goaltenders were brutal. By the end of his career, goaltenders were some of the best athletes on the planet.

Early in Gretzky's career, "systems" were pretty trivial. By the end of his career, coaches were playing chess out there.

These are not coincidences.

And this.
It's also no coincidence that, despite having Bobby Orr in the Boston spotlight for a decade, it was Wayne Gretzky heading to the US that immediately caused a huge spike in interest south of the 49th parallel, impacting endorsement and salaries deals forever. I'm not sure if salaries have already been brought up, but the huge increase between Orr's time and now can be directly traced back to Gretzky. The year Gretzky moved to L.A. was the first time both he and Mario Lemieux signed "true" million dollar deals ($2 mil base Gretz, $1.6 mil base Mario), and that kind of money obviously became available due to the growing interest in the game (particularly in the US) that both of them cultivated in the game, honestly, up to that point of the '80s.

But in a nutshell, as dominant as all these guys were vs their peers, hockey as a game, hockey as a sport, hockey as a business, hockey as pastime, and hockey as a spectacle was changed more by Gretzky than any of these guys, imo. He forced more changes on the game whether it be style, rules, perceived limits of production/performance, the record book, coaches' strategies, opponents' approach, player compensation, hockey's status as a "major" sport in N.Am., whatever.

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01-12-2014, 08:48 AM
  #34
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Would have to say Gretzky.

Literally everyone has heard of Wayne Gretzky.

That doesn't mean he revolutionized the game.

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01-12-2014, 08:49 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by AvsFan20 View Post
Would have to say Gretzky.

Literally everyone has heard of Wayne Gretzky.
Maybe in north america, but in the rest of the world he is pretty much a no-name. A lot of people in hockey interested countries such as Sweden and Finland knows who he is, but far from everyone.

There is no hockey player who will ever be known worldwide.

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01-12-2014, 08:50 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I tend to agree with this. I think people are confusing domination with innovation/"revolution". Orr really didn't do anything different than Harvey, he just had the skills relative to his peers to be more dominant doing it. What really changed because of what Orr did or how he did it? Not much. But quite simply, no one has ever done it better.



It's also no coincidence that, despite having Bobby Orr in the Boston spotlight for a decade, it was Wayne Gretzky heading to the US that immediately caused a huge spike in interest south of the 49th parallel, impacting endorsement and salaries deals forever. I'm not sure if salaries have already been brought up, but the huge increase between Orr's time and now can be directly traced back to Gretzky. The year Gretzky moved to L.A. was the first time both he and Mario Lemieux signed "true" million dollar deals ($2 mil base Gretz, $1.6 mil base Mario), and that kind of money obviously became available due to the growing interest in the game (particularly in the US) that both of them cultivated in the game, honestly, up to that point of the '80s.

But in a nutshell, as dominant as all these guys were vs their peers, hockey as a game, hockey as a sport, hockey as a business, hockey as pastime, and hockey as a spectacle was changed more by Gretzky than any of these guys, imo. He forced more changes on the game whether it be style, rules, perceived limits of production/performance, the record book, coaches' strategies, opponents' approach, player compensation, hockey's status as a "major" sport in N.Am., whatever.
Very well stated and right on target.

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01-12-2014, 09:01 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Yeah anyone saying Gretzky did nothing to change the game is just plaid wrong.

Also like add the use of setting up behind the net to create scoring chances. There is a reason it was called Gretzky's house. And he'll, for the 5-5 penalty calls...it was called the Gretzky rule!!

The easiest way to say it is, Orr changed the game for d-men, Gretzky for forwards and Roy for goalies. All did things that changed the game of hockey as we know it.
This is nonsense. Gretzky's effect at popularizing hockey didn't extend much outside LA, where it then declined after he retire. He ha virtually no effect elsewhere.

A lot of people also confuse Gretzky with the Oilers. He wan't the whole team, as proven by the fact that they won a cup without him. Any rule change like the 5-5 rule, wasn't due to him personally. There is also a lot of revisionist history in this thread, like no one ever set up plays behind the net before him.

Orr didn't just change the game for defensemen, he changed the entire strategy of how the game was played all over the ice. No ther single player comes even close in his effect.

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01-12-2014, 09:22 AM
  #38
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Maybe in north america, but in the rest of the world he is pretty much a no-name. A lot of people in hockey interested countries such as Sweden and Finland knows who he is, but far from everyone.

There is no hockey player who will ever be known worldwide.
sorry-- I live in the Uk and when try to talk to people who know nothing about hockey--they only know one persons name--WG is his initials

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01-12-2014, 09:28 AM
  #39
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sorry-- I live in the Uk and when try to talk to people who know nothing about hockey--they only know one persons name--WG is his initials
Ah well my bad. I guess everyone knows him then.

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01-12-2014, 09:34 AM
  #40
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Hall and Espo played butterfly before Roy.

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01-12-2014, 09:38 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by zidell View Post
This is nonsense. Gretzky's effect at popularizing hockey didn't extend much outside LA, where it then declined after he retire. He ha virtually no effect elsewhere.
You could have stopped here with enough comedic effect, but you just kept going...

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Originally Posted by zidell View Post
A lot of people also confuse Gretzky with the Oilers. He wan't the whole team, as proven by the fact that they won a cup without him. Any rule change like the 5-5 rule, wasn't due to him personally. There is also a lot of revisionist history in this thread, like no one ever set up plays behind the net before him.
I guess you're unfazed by the fact that those elements are more than just casually referred to as "the Gretzky rule" and "Gretzky's office", lol. It's not that no one ever did it (behind the net play) before, by the way, it's that the way he used that space to his and his team's advantage is seen as revolutionary. In no small part it's because of how well his vision and creativity exacerbated the fact that goalies couldn't watch the puck AND the ice in front of them compared to anyone who may have tried to exploit that same area in the past.

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Orr didn't just change the game for defensemen, he changed the entire strategy of how the game was played all over the ice. No ther single player comes even close in his effect.
You just drop that like a fact, but I notice you've omitted any kind of examples or specifics to support your opinion. What did Orr do to actually change how the game was played/approached in the '70s compared to what we saw with guys like Red Kelly or Pierre Pilote in the '60s, or Coffey in the '80s? Answer: not much, but there are elements that I'll let you try to come up with on your own. He just did it way better than them, and those afterwards too.

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01-12-2014, 09:44 AM
  #42
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Ah well my bad. I guess everyone knows him then.
As a Canadian English teacher in Japan, just about every one of my jikoshoukai (self-introduction) presentations, or small talk when meeting new people, involved hockey in some way (as my favourite sport, and a familiar symbol of the country I come from/national pride/etc.), and I can tell you that Wayne Gretzky is one of the few names that anyone can come up with, but many come up with it. Same thing in Korea and Vietnam. These are all places I've lived/stayed/visited for appreciable lengths of time that couldn't be separated any farther geographically from North America. Where are you basing your experiences on?

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01-12-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
As a Canadian English teacher in Japan, just about every one of my jikoshoukai (self-introduction) presentations, or small talk when meeting new people, involved hockey in some way (as my favourite sport, and a familiar symbol of the country I come from/national pride/etc.), and I can tell you that Wayne Gretzky is one of the few names that anyone can come up with, but many come up with it. Same thing in Korea and Vietnam. These are all places I've lived/stayed/visited for appreciable lengths of time that couldn't be separated any farther geographically from North America. Where are you basing your experiences on?
Family (my sister moved to Italy when I was 6, so I've spent a ton of time there, and her husband and his friends are very sports interested) and friends in different countries mostly. Other than that it's pretty much like here, words from people on the internet. For example in Italy Wayne Gretzky is a complete no name, same in Spain. I would be very surprised if the average person in countries like Brazil, Argentina, most of the african countries had heard his name even once. The people I've talked to also points in that direction.

But hey, I guess people in Vietnam and Korea appriciates Gretzky, considering he's never brought up in Sweden.

We've also had Canadians on this website who posted about how they asked friends in UK how much spotlight Gretzky got in their media, they asked "who?".


Last edited by Jonimaus: 01-12-2014 at 09:54 AM.
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01-12-2014, 10:08 AM
  #44
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The only person who legitimately played a run-and-gun style of defense after Bobby Orr was Paul Coffey.
Bobby Orr was the best defensemen in his own zone as well while he was playing.

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01-12-2014, 10:13 AM
  #45
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Family (my sister moved to Italy when I was 6, so I've spent a ton of time there, and her husband and his friends are very sports interested) and friends in different countries mostly. Other than that it's pretty much like here, words from people on the internet. For example in Italy Wayne Gretzky is a complete no name, same in Spain. I would be very surprised if the average person in countries like Brazil, Argentina, most of the african countries had heard his name even once. The people I've talked to also points in that direction.

But hey, I guess people in Vietnam and Korea appriciates Gretzky, considering he's never brought up in Sweden.

We've also had Canadians on this website who posted about how they asked friends in UK how much spotlight Gretzky got in their media, they asked "who?".
But this isn't an exercise in trying to discover a country where 100% of the population has heard of someone, right? Because there are probably people somewhere in Canada who have never heard of Gretzky, like there are probably people somewhere in the States who have never heard of Obama.

As for whoever these friends in the UK were, they must be living under rocks or something. I'm sure they'd think it was a coincidence that the British Hockey League, widely referred to as "the start of the game's modern era" over there, was re-formed 3 years after Gretzky's rookie year, 22 years after the previous hockey establishment had folded.

And lol at Gretzky "not being brought up in Sweden"... as if that implies that no one knows who he is. He's hardly a media topic of conversation these days. :

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01-12-2014, 10:18 AM
  #46
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But this isn't an exercise in trying to discover a country where 100% of the population has heard of someone, right? Because there are probably people somewhere in Canada who have never heard of Gretzky, like there are probably people somewhere in the States who have never heard of Obama.

As for whoever these friends in the UK were, they must be living under rocks or something. I'm sure they'd think it was a coincidence that the British Hockey League, widely referred to as "the start of the game's modern era" over there, was re-formed 3 years after Gretzky's rookie year, 22 years after the previous hockey establishment had folded.

And lol at Gretzky "not being brought up in Sweden"... as if that implies that no one knows who he is. He's hardly a media topic of conversation these days. :
The average ethnic Swedish sports fan knows who he is for sure, and a lot of non-sports fans too. Not everyone, I'm not sure what your point is. If he'll remain a famous name in Sweden I do not know. It depends if the younger generations gets the stories told of Gretzky like the stories of Maradona is passed down generations.

Are you surprised that there are a lot of brittish people who knows nothing about hockey and doesn't care about it? It's not a sport on the radar over there.

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1. Football.
(Giant gap)
2. International cricket.
3. Formula One.
4. International rugby union.
5. Boxing.
6. Tennis.
7. Golf.
8. Horse racing.
9. Domestic rugby union.
10. Domestic cricket.
11. Snooker.
12. Rugby league.
13. American football.
14. Darts.
15. Cycling.
16. Athletics.
17. Bowls.
18. Basketball.
19. Swimming.
20. MotoGP.
21. Rowing.
22. Netball.
23. Ice hockey.
Quote from http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=946007&page=2

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01-12-2014, 10:21 AM
  #47
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This is Orr by a mile and it is not even close. Until Bobby Orr came along, teams did not prepare for a D man that could jump into the rush and D man in general never thought about jumping into the rush. Doug Harvey would jump in before Orr came along but not as often or as well, so teams did not prepare and other D did not emulate him. After Orr, every kid playing D wanted to be him, rush the ice, not all stay at home any more.

Wayne Gretzky came along in the eighties during rapid expansion. Numbers went up every where as talent was diluted while player skills increased. Team systems came along because it was the only way to try and slow down scoring, not just Gretzky, but everyone. Gretzky was the most skilled forward ever, but he did not change his position or the game.

Esposito was a buttery goalie long before Roy and I believe Glen hall also. Both very good at it too. More athletic goalies entered the NHL and were capable of being butterfly goalies, Roy didn't change much..

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01-12-2014, 10:28 AM
  #48
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This is Orr by a mile and it is not even close. Until Bobby Orr came along, teams did not prepare for a D man that could jump into the rush and D man in general never thought about jumping into the rush. Doug Harvey would jump in before Orr came along but not as often or as well, so teams did not prepare and other D did not emulate him. After Orr, every kid playing D wanted to be him, rush the ice, not all stay at home any more.

Wayne Gretzky came along in the eighties during rapid expansion. Numbers went up every where as talent was diluted while player skills increased. Team systems came along because it was the only way to try and slow down scoring, not just Gretzky, but everyone. Gretzky was the most skilled forward ever, but he did not change his position or the game.

Esposito was a buttery goalie long before Roy and I believe Glen hall also. Both very good at it too. More athletic goalies entered the NHL and were capable of being butterfly goalies, Roy didn't change much..
roy basically changed the mindset of every single goalie growing up after that. goalies/teams started to realize after roy came into the league that butterfly goalies could actually be good at what they do and more and more goalies started to train that way.

i am suprised that there isn't more hybrid goalies like brodeur coming up also, but brodeurs style is pretty hard to master. one thing brodeur probably helped change was the mindset of goalies being a 3rd defensemen with the puck in the defensive zone.

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01-12-2014, 11:00 AM
  #49
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"Gretzky's Office"
"The Gretzky Rule"
"The Trade"
"The Great One"

Defensive systems to try and stop offense
Expansion to Southern States

Gretzky have hockey "cool" and pupular...and the "in" thing in the 90's

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01-12-2014, 11:17 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by PK16 View Post
Anyone who says Gretzky didn't change the game is out to lunch. He's the reason for both the coincidental minor 5-on-5 rule and the creation of the instigator rule.

Early in Gretzky's career, goaltenders were brutal. By the end of his career, goaltenders were some of the best athletes on the planet.

Early in Gretzky's career, "systems" were pretty trivial. By the end of his career, coaches were playing chess out there.

These are not coincidences.
The coincidental minor rule and the instigator rule aren't significant changes. If you're going to call that out, you have to call out the Brodeur trapezoid as an equivalent change.

And I don't think you can back up those other two changes over a 21 year period as "not coincidences".

Given the 4 guys listed in the OP, you really have to say Orr had the most impact on how the game is played. The "Defense is part of the offense" is a major philosophical shift in the league, and it changes how teams plan the games, how they draft and develop players, how power plays are staffed, etc.

Roy is an interesting write-in, but Tony Esposito really is the guy who developed the butterfly. Also worth mentioning, the effect of the butterfly does not extend very far outside the crease.

I think a lot of this is going to be a generational gap. Those of us who saw both Orr and Gretsky play in their prime, are going to lean towards Orr. Anyone who only saw Gretszky is going to say him, because he was so dominant, and effectively built two franchises.

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