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The Habs Cup Contention Window Can Begin This Year

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Old
01-12-2014, 07:18 PM
  #51
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I said he's failing on the trade market, as in he's not making good trades. A team needs to make trades over time to address internal balances that inevitably build up. If a GM never makes good trades, then he's probably failing.
far from "awful".

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01-12-2014, 07:19 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by missthenet View Post
Could Markov fetch us that?
huh, considering this thread is about THIS season, I doubt trading Markov would help our D squad...

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01-12-2014, 07:21 PM
  #53
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Yes, I agree. We can truly start contending once the team starts doing these..

1. Get rid of/Trade DD, Bouillon, Gionta, Briere, Diaz
2. Give Patches a real center.
3. Give Pleks 2 real wingers who can finish.
4. Therrien needs to stop benching Subban every time he makes a mistake. He's our superstar. We'll live and die with his play.
5. One of Gorges or Emelin should be a 3rd pairing dman. We need a 3rd pairing that we can truly trust when they're out there.

And I agree with the East being "weak." We should be lucky we're not in the west. So much easier to be successful where we are..

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01-12-2014, 07:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
Yes, I agree. We can truly start contending once the team starts doing these..

1. Get rid of/Trade DD, Bouillon, Gionta, Briere, Diaz
2. Give Patches a real center.
3. Give Pleks 2 real wingers who can finish.

4. Therrien needs to stop singling out Subban every time he makes a mistake. He's our superstar. We'll live and die with his play.
5. One of Gorges or Emelin should be a 3rd pairing dman. We need a 3rd pairing that we can truly trust when they're out there.

And I agree with the East being "weak." We should be lucky we're not in the west. So much easier to be successful where we are..
a guy who needs a better C, a C who needs better winger(s), dunno about you, but I see a possibility here...

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01-12-2014, 07:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Plante View Post
2-3 pieces away.

But Im sure a lot of teams could say the same.
This is true - welcome to the modern NHL. However our contract situation is a lot more favorable right now (minus a few recent mistakes) than most, as is our age range.

We also have the two most important position players - a goalie and a true 1D.

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01-12-2014, 07:41 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
a guy who needs a better C, a C who needs better winger(s), dunno about you, but I see a possibility here...
Another reason why I hate DD. He's the one preventing the Pleks-Patches duo from happening. But yeah, I know it would be easy to just put them together but I was thinking about having 2 real scoring lines. We need a legit top 6 and a legit 3rd pairing.

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01-12-2014, 08:08 PM
  #57
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You are correct
but it doesn't change the fact that two of the other big names were clarkson and lecavalier. One i dont want the other didnt want to come here. As for Jagr he signed a 1 yr deal. Murray was at the time what everyone was clamoring for - a d-man that could rattle some teeth.(and we signed him)

We are not near a window so anything more than a 2 yr stop-gap move would have been a mistake.

If you look at it from that point of view we have 2 of the 3 young dmen ready to make the jump with Murray and boullion coming off of the books.
Unfortunately, there is nothing on the farm that can make the jump long term this year or next other than tarnasky and i dont think thats what we're looking for.(top six seems to be the consensus)
By no means am i trying to defend MB here, but lets call a spade a spade and not paint with broad brush strokes
If you want to call a spade a spade than you shouldn't be making excuses or finding reasons to justify getting Briere and Murray. Both these decisions are just bad. That's it.

Now if you want to discuss who else was available, Jagr (being signed to a 1y deal is even better), MacArthur, Ryder, and if none of these guys wanted to come here, you can sign a grinder instead, and at the very least, not sign anybody because you know players can become available throughout the season.
On defense, Tom Gilbert would have been a great fit here, exactly what we needed.

I wouldn't say everybody was asking for Murray. Just people that were seriously desperate for size. Just like people wanted an enforcer, but many said it was useless, which should be evident enough by now if it wasn't already.
We needed a right handed D to play in our top 4, not a big D that shouldn't even be in the NHL.

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01-12-2014, 08:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If you want to call a spade a spade than you shouldn't be making excuses or finding reasons to justify getting Briere and Murray. Both these decisions are just bad. That's it.

Now if you want to discuss who else was available, Jagr (being signed to a 1y deal is even better), MacArthur, Ryder, and if none of these guys wanted to come here, you can sign a grinder instead, and at the very least, not sign anybody because you know players can become available throughout the season.
On defense, Tom Gilbert would have been a great fit here, exactly what we needed.

I wouldn't say everybody was asking for Murray. Just people that were seriously desperate for size. Just like people wanted an enforcer, but many said it was useless, which should be evident enough by now if it wasn't already.
We needed a right handed D to play in our top 4, not a big D that shouldn't even be in the NHL.
Bergevin went out to get Briere in order to fill Ryders production from last year - at least a part of it.
Saying that we could've signed a grinder does not cut it.
I agree that Briere was a bad signing, hated it from the beginning, but you tell me who other than briere would've fit the bill?
MacArthur sure but who else ?
As for Murray as previously mentioned he's a 1yr stop gap, so its NOT a bad signing if he's filler waiting for Pateryn or Tinordi

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01-12-2014, 08:43 PM
  #59
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We've been contenders for a while now. We ended up on top of the East twice in the last couple of years.

We did have that one season where we ended up last in the East though. We are not consistant contenders, but we are. And it all started exactly as you said with Komisarek, Hainsey, Hossa and Perezhogin.

The team has had solid rosters every year since Timmins came on board and Gainey started a ''5 year plan''. Since then the Habs have had good records. They havnt set the league on fire but they've been good. It's way better than the late 90's when we all knew the team would struggle. Now, there is hope every year when the season begins.

When you have dmen such as Subban and Markov and a goalie like Price to go along a solid and deep offense, you gotta try to win now. The window is definitely open.

But things will continue to evolve. The team has changed quite a lot since the Hainsey/Hossa days, but it seems to me like the club has always gotten somewhat better. It is even more true now with Galchenyuk on board, our only true elite forward since Saku Koivu (pre-injuries/cancer).

Pacioretty, Subban, Price, Galchenyuk and Subban are all young NHLers who have showed they can be dominant or have the potential to be. True NHL all-stars. With them on board and the depth in young players we have, there is no reason NOT to be contenders every year. Add Eller, Gallagher, Emelin.

You gotta try to go for it every year and it will ring true even more in the coming years as Bergevin tries to make this club bigger. Things can only get better from now on with the additions of Tinordi, McCarron and De La Rose to the current core.

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Old
01-12-2014, 09:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
Another reason why I hate DD. He's the one preventing the Pleks-Patches duo from happening. But yeah, I know it would be easy to just put them together but I was thinking about having 2 real scoring lines. We need a legit top 6 and a legit 3rd pairing.
true, but at the very least, MT could have tried (and more than just a game or two)

Patches - Plekanec - ...
Galchenyuk - Eller -...

or

Galchenyuk - Plekanec - ...
Patches - Eller - ...

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01-12-2014, 09:33 PM
  #61
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Say what you want, the OP's argument is solid. at least, in certain respects.

The East IS WEAK. Montreal can compete with most -- if not all -- teams in the East with it's current roster which, IMO, isn't extremely strong, by any means.

A 4 of 7 series, especially with solid goaltending, can swing in unexpected fashion. A few lucky bounces, riding the emotion of the moment, getting an unexpected early lead in the series and the confidence that comes from it can make for an upset!

Does that mean Montreal should trade away the farm and it's draft picks for rentals? Absolutely not. By rental, I hope we agree we are talking about UFAs, old or not, that we aren't likely to re-sign in the offseason, whether we have no interest in doing so or whether the player has no interest in doing so.

However, trading picks and/or prospects for one or several impending UFAs that are of the quality and age bracket to interest us for the medium to long term isn't a waste of picks and/or prospects. It's not impossible, either, to make a trade contingent on a window of talks that determines whether a contract extension can be had.

Trading picks and/or prospects for established, quality players that will end up remaining in Montreal for the next 4-5-6 years isn't a waste of picks and prospects, assets that have absolutely no guarantee of ever maturing into their projected upside.

Matt Moulson could likely be had for a 2nd rounder AND a 3rd rounder. If the trade was contingent on extending Moulson's contract for 4 years (brings him to 34 years of age) and he agreed to terms with Montreal, those picks might be worth it. Moulson would bring more consistency alongside Plekanec than Bourque has, or Bournival, for that matter. Then, there's the question of whether you keep Gionta on that line or not but, there's arguments for either camp.

We would be left with Pacioretty-Desharnais-Gallagher, Moulson-Plekanec-Gionta, Galchenyuk-Eller-Brière and Bourque-Prust-Moen, with Bournival and White as extra skaters. Who knows what chemistry could develop. Adding a genuine top-six forward in Moulson would enable Therrien to see if Brière and Gionta could be swopped for more impact offensively on the Plekanec line and more safety defensively on the eller line; Moulson-Plekanec-Brière, Galchenyuk-Eller-Gionta.

Bourque is a solid defensive forward with mysteriously silent offensive upside. He's a safety net to mix things up during games when other forwards are under performing. Bournival is inexperienced but, already a solid two-way forward that can play if anyone gets injured.

While this team really needs an established, minute-eating, top-four D, it also needs help at RD for the 3rd pairing or, rather, an upgrade over Diaz. Perhaps Pateryn, who has been steady in hamilton, can get a 3rd pairing look-see before the trade deadline. I don't expect he would perform in pressure situations from the get-go but, managed minutes in a 3rd pairing role with solid, physical, defensive play would be enough from him to help stabilize the D-corps.

There,s always the question of a top-four D to enable placing Gorges on a 3rd pairing with Pateryn. I don't know what's available there but, if it can be had for a player that would stick with the team over the medium term (3-4 years), it would be worth it, even if the trade involved Gorges + a pick or prospect. I know some posters will be outraged by involving Gorges in a trade but, if we can upgrade on Gorges, it's easier to form a 3rd pairing D.

We'd be left at D with:

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Established top-four D
Murray-Pateryn

With the addition of more fire-power up front, an added piece that would help settle other forwards into more comfortable roles and an upgrade at D, I'd be more comfortable in our chances to get out of the East and of the possibilities of creating an upset in a Cup final.

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Old
01-12-2014, 09:44 PM
  #62
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My gut feel is that PK Subban will win a cup before his career is over. If management somehow ****'s that up (ie; traded, UFA) you can kiss the future goodbye.

I believe if you have enough winners (Subban's and Price) the time will come. I'm not sure if Galchenyuk belongs in their category. Maybe he will.

What concern's me the more is that idiot GM of ours. He's a poser. The future is held in his hands..scary.

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01-12-2014, 09:45 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Bergevin went out to get Briere in order to fill Ryders production from last year - at least a part of it.
Saying that we could've signed a grinder does not cut it.
I agree that Briere was a bad signing, hated it from the beginning, but you tell me who other than briere would've fit the bill?
MacArthur sure but who else ?
As for Murray as previously mentioned he's a 1yr stop gap, so its NOT a bad signing if he's filler waiting for Pateryn or Tinordi
Again, MacArthur, Jagr, and even just re-signing Ryder would have been better options.
Without 4M spent on Briere, maybe we can make a stronger push for Morrow as well.
And yes, signing a grinder would not make us more productive, but it would still be better than bringing Briere in.
Briere was a terrible choice. I shouldn't have to give examples of who else was available. Signing him complicates our situation up front more than anything, just a horrible fit. Signing nobody would have been better.

As for Murray, it's not because he's signed for a year that it's okay. Ya, it's not a completely ******** signing that hurts us long term, but I fail to see how this suddenly makes it okay.
Not the end of the world, but when we're judging his moves, then it falls under the bad category.

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01-12-2014, 09:45 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Scriptor View Post
With the addition of more fire-power up front, an added piece that would help settle other forwards into more comfortable roles and an upgrade at D, I'd be more comfortable in our chances to get out of the East and of the possibilities of creating an upset in a Cup final.
Everything is always possible. It,s clear that an incredible Price added with 1 or 2 additions offensively (though at what Price) could give us an Eastern Final. For sure. I will NEVER believe a Cup, as it's not 1 regular season against the Hawks we're talking about here...it's a full 4 out of 7. But an Eastern championship? Sure....would be great, to be sure, to see the Pens being eliminated before we faced them but even if we do....I do see an improved team winning against them. We could win against Boston. Or TBay. Or the Wings. Sure. Would be extremely close.

But what are the price you are ready to pay? Are we talking here about a possibility at the Finals for this year but then....who knows for the future? Or is it the START of our true contention for years to come? If so....I will not agree. There's so many other pieces needed to be sure that no matter who improves in the East, that we'd be a contender no matter what. But if it's to win this year.....surely. As much as I think how ordinairy this team is....tons of teams in the East are this year.

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01-12-2014, 09:46 PM
  #65
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The delusion is strong.

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Old
01-12-2014, 09:59 PM
  #66
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I honestly believe the difference between us being a contender or ousted in the 1st round is our role players. If Moen, White, Eller, Gallagher, Bourque, Diaz, Emelin can elevate their game we would have a shot, We know Markov, SUbban, Price, Pleks are guys who could win a cup but these players on the bubble, the complementary players have to be better IMO.

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01-12-2014, 10:03 PM
  #67
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This is an intelligent post, and the central point is right -- the Habs are not " a few years away". Their best players are in their prime , fast approaching it, or (Markov) just fading away. There's no point in collecting draft prospects who are four to five years away from contributing.
The problem is...what do you do with that knowledge? COuld you get ,say, a top-ten scorer for draft picks? No. Could you get such a player for second-tier players? No.So what do you do? Adding role-players is fine, but role-players are not the problem -- the team already has excellent role-players. They can't win a Cup without at least one elite forward, and , as the Blackhawks demonstrate, those are the kinds of assets you get mostly by getting lucky. If they're lucky with Galchenyuk , then things might work out.

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01-12-2014, 10:24 PM
  #68
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1st round pick + Leblanc + Ellis + conditionnal 2nd round pick if the Habs reach the conference final for Vanek

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01-12-2014, 11:19 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
This is an intelligent post, and the central point is right -- the Habs are not " a few years away". Their best players are in their prime , fast approaching it, or (Markov) just fading away. There's no point in collecting draft prospects who are four to five years away from contributing.
The problem is...what do you do with that knowledge? COuld you get ,say, a top-ten scorer for draft picks? No. Could you get such a player for second-tier players? No.So what do you do? Adding role-players is fine, but role-players are not the problem -- the team already has excellent role-players. They can't win a Cup without at least one elite forward, and , as the Blackhawks demonstrate, those are the kinds of assets you get mostly by getting lucky. If they're lucky with Galchenyuk , then things might work out.
Who did the Bruins have exactly that's considered elite on forward? We play a similar type of game as them as we can compete with anyone thanks to our goalie.

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01-12-2014, 11:20 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
Yes, I agree. We can truly start contending once the team starts doing these..

1. Get rid of/Trade DD, Bouillon, Gionta, Briere, Diaz
2. Give Patches a real center.
3. Give Pleks 2 real wingers who can finish.
4. Therrien needs to stop benching Subban every time he makes a mistake. He's our superstar. We'll live and die with his play.
5. One of Gorges or Emelin should be a 3rd pairing dman. We need a 3rd pairing that we can truly trust when they're out there.

And I agree with the East being "weak." We should be lucky we're not in the west. So much easier to be successful where we are..
I would easily say 8 or 9 out of 10 Hab fans want Briere gone...now!
But...what if an injury happens to one of our top 3 centers (and Galchenyuk is not ready this year?)...should Briere get a chance at CENTER again? (isn't that where he dominated in playoffs a couple of times...playoff hero? and as a CENTER).

In playoffs...Briere for some reason becomes as good as Giroux or better...in playoffs!! So...keep him to see what Briere can do in '14 playoffs? or just get rid of him for nothing? (can our top 9 depth afford this? not sure...). And, I'm not trying to anger people here who obviously want Briere gone...just looking at all the possible scenarios...like a smart GM should do (and I'm not smart GM! I'm just a Hab fan...a huuuuuge one!!).


About our Cup window...as little as one or two BIG changes/trades/acquisitions/UFA addition(s)...can open our window in a BIG way between now and summertime UFA period.

Every new GM will want 4-5 years and say the same thing...''we need patience'', but this is also maybe 'cause a GM wants to keep his job for as long as possible! (normal, human nature!, but some of us Hab fans are getting a little tired of waiting another 4-5 years and then nothing...and then another 4-5 years...something has to give...that Conference Final a few seasons ago was a lot of fun, but still...we want more and we want to go even further than Conference Finals!).


Go Habs Go!!

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01-12-2014, 11:36 PM
  #71
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The problem is that MB did not make moves in the offseason thinking we were contenders THIS YEAR. We should really be looking at next year since I think Tinordi will become the defensemen most of you guys think we need. Also, we lack an elite RW and that is obvious. We simply don't have the offensive firepower to make a run. That's why I think Bergevin should be looking to make a splash either at the deadline or at the draft and trade the first round pick and a couple of good prospects for a winger.

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01-12-2014, 11:37 PM
  #72
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We have little chance to drag ourselves to conferece finals if Price goes Jesus mode----->God mode. Cup? Hell no.

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01-12-2014, 11:51 PM
  #73
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1st round pick + Leblanc + Ellis + conditionnal 2nd round pick if the Habs reach the conference final for Vanek
Where do I sign?

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01-13-2014, 01:01 AM
  #74
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Since the advent of whole-conference seeding in 93-94 a third or lower seeded team has won the cup 7 times.

I'm thinkin all u guys who are ABSOLUTELY sure we cant contend weren't old enough to watch hockey in 93 (i was 12).

With a good team and a killer goalie ANYTHING can happen.

Don't give up the dream!

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01-13-2014, 02:34 AM
  #75
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Would love to see the Habs add some one like Mark Giodarno. He'd be a perfect #3, or even #2.

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