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Old
01-10-2014, 12:48 PM
  #826
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I think where we differ is that I see the GG and MVP voting as a joke. In most sports things that get voted on aren't the best measure, but baseball is beyond ridiculous. Jeter has been getting gold gloves when he has less range than I do for example.

Utley played well enough to win MVP for 5 straight seasons and got his votes, but lost to Pujols (Elite even for HOF) and then Rollins and Howard. You could argue he had better years than either Rollins or Howard, but those guys had the stats that pop out to the voters, 30 HR, 40 SB, 20 triples, or 58 HR, 150 RBI. The media are really just now starting to use a portion of advanced stats

I agree that I don't see him making it, but to me its solely because of the injuries.

As an aside Howard's 2006 is still the closest anyone has come to 60 HR's without steroids.

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01-10-2014, 01:06 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I think where we differ is that I see the GG and MVP voting as a joke. In most sports things that get voted on aren't the best measure, but baseball is beyond ridiculous. Jeter has been getting gold gloves when he has less range than I do for example.

Utley played well enough to win MVP for 5 straight seasons and got his votes, but lost to Pujols (Elite even for HOF) and then Rollins and Howard. You could argue he had better years than either Rollins or Howard, but those guys had the stats that pop out to the voters, 30 HR, 40 SB, 20 triples, or 58 HR, 150 RBI. The media are really just now starting to use a portion of advanced stats

I agree that I don't see him making it, but to me its solely because of the injuries.

As an aside Howard's 2006 is still the closest anyone has come to 60 HR's without steroids.
There are plenty of guys that put up MVP numbers and don't win. Some times it is a snub, some times there are just guys having better seasons. Looking at Utley's years where he finished with MVP votes, he did not have a season that warranted an MVP those or any other years IMO.

2005 - lost to Pujols but finished 13th behind a number of players with better years
2006 - lost to Howard but finished tied for 7th behind a number of players with better years
2007 - lost to J-Roll and this was probably the only year you could argue he could have or should have won, however I would have ranked David Wright above him (Wright beat him in every single category except OPS and Slugging). Wright played 30 more games, than Utley I'm not so sure that 30 more games by Utley would have made any difference that year.
2008 - No chance against Pujols, but finished 14th behind a number of guys with better or comparable years
2009 - Same as above

That is the biggest problem. He had good years, for sure, but never played well enough to be MVP. I would not blame it on a flawed voting system, I would blame it on Utley not being the MVP.

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01-10-2014, 01:32 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
There are plenty of guys that put up MVP numbers and don't win. Some times it is a snub, some times there are just guys having better seasons. Looking at Utley's years where he finished with MVP votes, he did not have a season that warranted an MVP those or any other years IMO.

2005 - lost to Pujols but finished 13th behind a number of players with better years
2006 - lost to Howard but finished tied for 7th behind a number of players with better years
2007 - lost to J-Roll and this was probably the only year you could argue he could have or should have won, however I would have ranked David Wright above him (Wright beat him in every single category except OPS and Slugging). Wright played 30 more games, than Utley I'm not so sure that 30 more games by Utley would have made any difference that year.
2008 - No chance against Pujols, but finished 14th behind a number of guys with better or comparable years
2009 - Same as above

That is the biggest problem. He had good years, for sure, but never played well enough to be MVP. I would not blame it on a flawed voting system, I would blame it on Utley not being the MVP.
Saying where he finished in voting is pointless to me because the voting system is flawed. That was kind of the point. It's voted on by mostly relics. Even the year Howard won it, it probably should have been Pujols again, but Howard's HR's swayed the voting.

I don't understand how anyone at this point, with the wealth of statistics available can stand by the baseball voting system. Especially on something like GG.

Judging from this and prior posts about this I'm not sure you understand that Utley plays second base. From 2005-2009 he had 25 more WAR than the next closest 2nd baseman. Over that same time frame there is no larger gap between the best and next best player at any position. His offensive WAR was almost 4 times the amount of the next closest 2B.

He was 2nd in offensive WAR (just a compilation of batting statistics) and WAR during that stretch to only Pujols, who is legit one of the greatest hitters of all time. Like the elite of the elite, elite for even a HOF player.

I don't disagree that he likely won't make it, but you're severely downplaying how good he was, based on mostly antiquated lines of thinking. All the things you're saying are the reasons (aside from injuries) that he likely won't make the Hall, but they're also the reasons a lot of people hate the baseball HOF voters.

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01-10-2014, 01:41 PM
  #829
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I don't think GG should be weighed in as a HOF criteria, its a awful award given to extremely mediocre people a good portion of time. Abrue & Polanco won it. Voting = Flawed

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01-10-2014, 02:12 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Saying where he finished in voting is pointless to me because the voting system is flawed. That was kind of the point. It's voted on by mostly relics. Even the year Howard won it, it probably should have been Pujols again, but Howard's HR's swayed the voting.
But in those years, regardless of where he finished, there were better players. Whether he was #13 behind 3 players that deserved to be ahead of him and nine who didn't, he still didn't deserve to win. There was only one year where he legitimately could have won and that was the year that J-Roll won, but like I said, David Wright beat him in every major category, even the almighty WAR. So like I said, he never was an MVP. Ever. He played well, but in every one of his peak seasons, there was AT LEAST one person better. So if he finished 2nd or 22nd, he still was never an MVP. Flawed voting or not, there is nothing you can say to me that would make believe he should have ever won an MVP (unless you remove the players who had better years than him...)

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I don't understand how anyone at this point, with the wealth of statistics available can stand by the baseball voting system. Especially on something like GG.
See above. Advanced stats or not, old stats or not, eye test or something else, he never would have won an MVP in those years where he received votes. As far as GG goes, yeah the voting is flawed. No doubt. And frankly I wouldn't base my vote on # of GG. But they count for something. Sure, there are times when guys don't deserve them, but the majority of the time they get the right people. Look at the guys to whom Chase lost...Castillo, Vina, Hudson, Phillips. All these guys are good fielders. Some better than others, some arguably better or worse than Chase.

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Judging from this and prior posts about this I'm not sure you understand that Utley plays second base. From 2005-2009 he had 25 more WAR than the next closest 2nd baseman. Over that same time frame there is no larger gap between the best and next best player at any position. His offensive WAR was almost 4 times the amount of the next closest 2B.

He was 2nd in offensive WAR (just a compilation of batting statistics) and WAR during that stretch to only Pujols, who is legit one of the greatest hitters of all time. Like the elite of the elite, elite for even a HOF player.
I'm admittedly not an advanced stats guy, but let's go with this. He dominated WAR for five years. Then this goes back to the injuries issue. HOF is for the best of the best, not guys who could have been the best of the best.

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I don't disagree that he likely won't make it, but you're severely downplaying how good he was, based on mostly antiquated lines of thinking. All the things you're saying are the reasons (aside from injuries) that he likely won't make the Hall, but they're also the reasons a lot of people hate the baseball HOF voters.
I don't think I'm downplaying anything. He was a great Phillie, a great second baseman, and a great all around baseball player (hell, by all accounts he is even a great human being). But the HOF should be reserved for the greatest players of all time. Guys that you saw play day in and day out and were blown away. As I've noted, there are guys in the HOF that don't fit that description IMO, but they are in there, so Chase has a shot. But I would not vote for him. Hate hte HOF system all you want, the system works for the most part. I'm of the opinion that it is better to deny access (be it for steroids or some other reason) for a couple of guys that should be in, than it is to allow access to guys who shouldn't be in there.

"Small Hall" I believe they call it. Like I said, you let in Utley then the conversation moves to other 2Bs like Kinsler, Castillo, Polanco. Guys with arguably better or comparable stats and careers who very clearly are not HOF worthy.

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01-10-2014, 02:20 PM
  #831
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Utley was undoubtedly good enough to be a HOFer, but his longevity, or lack thereof, could keep him out. He needs to have a strong finish over the next few years to really make his case. Here's a good piece from a couple years ago about where Utley fits in in the pantheon of second basemen:

http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/2/...second-basemen

I think Rollins is just short, although he'll have a case that he should get in eventually.

Also, Curt Schilling should go in.

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01-10-2014, 02:46 PM
  #832
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DFF,

As I said before I agree that he shouldn't be in as is because of his injury issues. However, it is frankly moronic to base your decision around things that are voted on.

Utley was the best player in baseball in 2007. (A-Roid doesn't count). If he had played a full season he'd been the only guy with a 9 WAR that year. He had 8 fewer HR, 9 less runs, and 4 less RBI's in 30 less games than Wright. He would have past him in all but HR's.

If you want to say well he didn't play the extra 30 games so no, fine, but had he been healthy these past few years he would be a lock even with no MVP's and no GG. Still at this point it's arguable based on how he finishes his career.

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01-10-2014, 03:01 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Utley was undoubtedly good enough to be a HOFer, but his longevity, or lack thereof, could keep him out. He needs to have a strong finish over the next few years to really make his case. Here's a good piece from a couple years ago about where Utley fits in in the pantheon of second basemen:

http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/2/...second-basemen

I think Rollins is just short, although he'll have a case that he should get in eventually.

Also, Curt Schilling should go in.
I would similarly not vote for Rollins or Schilling, though of Utley, Rollins, and Schilling, Schilling is closest IMO largely because of his post-season efforts. Guy was pretty much unbeatable come October.

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01-10-2014, 03:46 PM
  #834
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Biggest problem I see with GG, is I feel like once you win one, you will almost win them in bulk if nobody comes out and takes it from you. Almost like a ASG selection. First one is the hardest.

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01-10-2014, 04:05 PM
  #835
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DFF,

As I said before I agree that he shouldn't be in as is because of his injury issues. However, it is frankly moronic to base your decision around things that are voted on.
Again, that is not the SOLE thing I am basing it on. And it is not idiotic, it is a part of the sport. Yes, sometimes the wrong guy wins, but usually it is the best or at least arguably the best player out there. There is always going to be a contingent of people saying this or that guy should have won for this reason or that reason, but typically, the voters get it right.

Quote:
Utley was the best player in baseball in 2007. (A-Roid doesn't count). If he had played a full season he'd been the only guy with a 9 WAR that year. He had 8 fewer HR, 9 less runs, and 4 less RBI's in 30 less games than Wright. He would have past him in all but HR's.
How about Matt Holliday (didn't notice him the first time when I said David Wright should have won...Holliday really should have won)? Would he have passed him in those categories? Holliday played in just 26 more games but had 39 more hits, 16 more runs, 14 more HR, 34 more RBI, 2 more SB, 13 more walks, eight points higher BA, 34 points higher SLG, and 36 points higher OPS. Still Utley?

Quote:
If you want to say well he didn't play the extra 30 games so no, fine, but had he been healthy these past few years he would be a lock even with no MVP's and no GG. Still at this point it's arguable based on how he finishes his career.
Agree to disagree I suppose.

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01-10-2014, 04:42 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
How about Matt Holliday (didn't notice him the first time when I said David Wright should have won...Holliday really should have won)? Would he have passed him in those categories? Holliday played in just 26 more games but had 39 more hits, 16 more runs, 14 more HR, 34 more RBI, 2 more SB, 13 more walks, eight points higher BA, 34 points higher SLG, and 36 points higher OPS. Still Utley?
100 more PAs for Holliday that year, and if you adjust for park factors their batting performance was just about the same. But Utley plays a more valuable defensive position and plays it a lot better than Holliday plays his.

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01-10-2014, 04:52 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Again, that is not the SOLE thing I am basing it on. And it is not idiotic, it is a part of the sport. Yes, sometimes the wrong guy wins, but usually it is the best or at least arguably the best player out there. There is always going to be a contingent of people saying this or that guy should have won for this reason or that reason, but typically, the voters get it right.
On the list of things that are important for judging a player, voted on awards and team accomplishments should always be at the bottom.

Quote:
How about Matt Holliday (didn't notice him the first time when I said David Wright should have won...Holliday really should have won)? Would he have passed him in those categories? Holliday played in just 26 more games but had 39 more hits, 16 more runs, 14 more HR, 34 more RBI, 2 more SB, 13 more walks, eight points higher BA, 34 points higher SLG, and 36 points higher OPS. Still Utley?
Coors Field??

Again, Chase Utley plays 2nd base, not corner outfield. Putting up those types of numbers while not being a butcher at your position like Uggla is what makes him so valuable. There is a big difference between 1B, LF/RF, and 2B.

The reason Rollins won the MVP was because he put up those numbers at SS, same thing with McCutchen this year, and Posey before him.

McCutchen wasn't in the top 5 in the NL for HR's, RBI's, Runs, Avg, SLG%, OPS, Doubles, or Triples. Maybe you'd say he shouldn't of won? But he has an MVP.

There's a reason that the HOF 2B don't have prolific offensive numbers.

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Agree to disagree I suppose.
Agreed.

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01-10-2014, 04:54 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Biggest problem I see with GG, is I feel like once you win one, you will almost win them in bulk if nobody comes out and takes it from you. Almost like a ASG selection. First one is the hardest.
Jeter is the prime example.

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01-10-2014, 06:50 PM
  #839
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Utley is a HOF caliber talent, no doubt about it imo. He just didnt have a HOF career because of a late start and injuries. His peak 5 years are arguably the best for a 2nd baseman since Honus Wagner. The man had from 2005-2009 had a slash of .301/.388/.535. That is really good for a 1b, let alone for a position. He also was a very good defender, and if he you like advanced defensive stats he was one of the best fielders in that time.

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01-10-2014, 07:16 PM
  #840
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I would similarly not vote for Rollins or Schilling, though of Utley, Rollins, and Schilling, Schilling is closest IMO largely because of his post-season efforts. Guy was pretty much unbeatable come October.
Yeah, his playoff performance is a big check in his favor. Schilling's numbers stack up pretty well against Glavine's, with the exception of wins and games started, and Glavine had the 12th most starts ever for a pitcher. Factor in that Schilling was maybe the best postseason pitcher ever and I think he has a great case.

And so nobody takes that the wrong way, I'm not saying Schilling had a better career than Glavine. Just saying he stacks up pretty well next to a guy who got 90+% of the vote in his first chance for induction.

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01-10-2014, 08:12 PM
  #841
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I don't think GG should be weighed in as a HOF criteria, its a awful award given to extremely mediocre people a good portion of time. Abrue & Polanco won it. Voting = Flawed
It's what the GGs represent that matters. Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith didn't get into the Hall on the basis of their hitting exploits. For a position like SS, it matters a lot.

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01-13-2014, 08:41 AM
  #842
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It's what the GGs represent that matters. Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith didn't get into the Hall on the basis of their hitting exploits. For a position like SS, it matters a lot.
Exactly, you have guys like Robinson & Smith that were elite, then you have jackasses like Polanco and Abreu.

Polanco didn't commit many errors, but his range was about as good as my mom who's had two knee replacement surgeries.

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01-13-2014, 09:28 AM
  #843
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
"Small Hall" I believe they call it. Like I said, you let in Utley then the conversation moves to other 2Bs like Kinsler, Castillo, Polanco. Guys with arguably better or comparable stats and careers who very clearly are not HOF worthy.
Not trying to spark up this debate again lol, but I missed this... in what world are these guys comparable players to Utley?

The only one remotely close offensively is Kinsler, and that's only because of Utley's injuries. Even so, Utley's career OPS is still 67 points higher and he's a better defensive player as well. Utley's OPS is over 100 points higher than both Castillo and Polanco. They're not close to being in the same league as Utley, and that's not even just talking about their peak seasons. They do not have comparable or better stats at all.

Again, you can type a sentence that says you're not downplaying his abilities, but it sounds an awful lot like "you know I'm not racist or nothin...but.."

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01-13-2014, 09:59 AM
  #844
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Not trying to spark up this debate again lol, but I missed this... in what world are these guys comparable players to Utley?

The only one remotely close offensively is Kinsler, and that's only because of Utley's injuries. Even so, Utley's career OPS is still 67 points higher and he's a better defensive player as well. Utley's OPS is over 100 points higher than both Castillo and Polanco. They're not close to being in the same league as Utley, and that's not even just talking about their peak seasons. They do not have comparable or better stats at all.
Utleys Career Line:
.287 BA
.373 OBP
.498 SLG
.871 OPS
217 HR
808 RBI
298 2B
42 3B
129 SB
1410 H
5 All-Star Games
4 Silver Sluggers

Kinsler Career Line:
.273 BA
.349 OBP
.454 SLG
.804 OPS
156 HR
539 RBI
249 2B
23 3B
172 SB
1145 H
3 All Star Games

Polanco Career Line:
.297 BA
.343 OBP
.397 SLG
.740 OPS
104 HR
743 RBI
348 2B
32 3B
81 SB
2142 H
2 All-Star Games
1 Silver Slugger

Castillo Career Line:
.290 BA
.368 OBP
.352 SLG
.719 OPS
28 HR
443 RBI
194 2B
59 3B
370 SB
1889 H
3 All-Star Games
3 Gold Gloves

Utley has better power numbers than these guys (though Kinsler very well may surpass him depending on how things shake out). No questions asked. But the rest of their stats are comparable or in some cases, the other guys have better stats. Utley is better in the field than Polanco and Kinsler, but I'd say Castillo was better or at least as good as Utley. They all have been all-stars and all have won awards (except Kinsler). Again, I must say that Utley is better than these guys and has better numbers, but it isn't night and day. If Utley is a HOFer, then you talk about Kinsler, Castillo, and Polanco as being potential candidates because they are in the same realm.

Look at Castillo. He didn't have the power numbers, but his BA is higher, he has more hits, his OBP five points less, he has 250 or so more stolen bases, more triples, and was a comparable fielder. How can you say Utley is HOF worthy but then dismiss Castillo? Just because he didn't have the power numbers?

Quote:
Again, you can type a sentence that says you're not downplaying his abilities, but it sounds an awful lot like "you know I'm not racist or nothin...but.."
Until you read what I am writing and consider that all I am saying is that Utley is not a HOFer. I'm not saying that he sucked. I'm not saying he wasn't a great player when healthy. I'm just saying he isn't a HOFer.

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01-13-2014, 10:45 AM
  #845
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You left out games played for all of those counting statistics...the numbers aren't close dude. I can't help you if you refuse to see that because you don't want to admit that what you said doesn't mesh with reality.

In 600 less games Utley has 100+ more HR's, 10 more 3B's, and 50 less 2B's than Polanco...that's in around 4 less seasons.

In 400 less games Utley has 189 more HR's, 17 less 3B's, and 104 more 2B's than Castillo...that's in 2.5 less seasons.

Castillo stole more bases becasue he ran more. Utley has an 88% success rate with stealing bases, Castillo 72%.

Utley has a higher OBP, SLG, and OPS than any of them. His OPS compared to Castillo and Polanco isn't remotely close. Kinsler has had 2 seasons with an OPS over .820 and none over .900. Utley has 7 seasons with an OPS over .820 and 5 over .900.

Quote:
Utley has better power numbers than these guys (though Kinsler very well may surpass him depending on how things shake out). No questions asked. But the rest of their stats are comparable or in some cases, the other guys have better stats.
Utley is a power hitter, Polanco and Castillo were not. The fact that his non power stats (AVG and OBP) are comparable or slightly better than them means he did their job just as good or better than they did, while also putting up massive power numbers for a 2B.

I'm sorry, that means their offensive difference was night and day.


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01-13-2014, 11:29 AM
  #846
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You left out games played for all of those counting statistics...the numbers aren't close dude. I can't help you if you refuse to see that because you don't want to admit that what you said doesn't mesh with reality.

In 600 less games Utley has 100+ more HR's, 10 more 3B's, and 50 less 2B's than Polanco...that's in around 4 less seasons.

In 400 less games Utley has 189 more HR's, 17 less 3B's, and 104 more 2B's than Castillo...that's in 2.5 less seasons.

Castillo stole more bases becasue he ran more. Utley has an 88% success rate with stealing bases, Castillo 72%.

Utley has a higher OBP, SLG, and OPS than any of them. His OPS compared to Castillo and Polanco isn't remotely close. Kinsler has had 2 seasons with an OPS over .820 and none over .900. Utley has 7 seasons with an OPS over .820 and 5 over .900.
I get that Utley played in fewer games. But at the end of the day, my position on the hall is that your final numbers are what matters. I understand there are different schools of thought. Some people go on peak years. Some people go on 162 game averages. Some people go on what could have been if injuries or other issues didn't come into play. I go on bottom line and what I saw on the field. For me, Utley is filed into the "what could have been" category. His numbers for BA, SLG, OBP, and OPS are likely to fall as his career moves forward and he continues to decline, so those 162 games averages aren't going to look as pretty. Utley he had 5 or 6 great years and the rest were not in the realm of being considered HOF worthy. 2B or not. Longevity or not, you don't get into the HOF (or you shouldn't) get into the HOF because part of your career was great.

I am not saying these other players are as good as Utley, I am saying they have comparable stats and therefore would have to be considered if Utley gets in. That's the "small hall" argument. Where do you draw the line? You don't like my Castillo and Polanco arguments, fine. Ian Kinsler has three less seasons than Utley. If he puts up three more seasons with his 162 game average, his HR numbers will be better than Utley, his RBI numbers will be a handful shy, his SB numbers will be about 100 more. So is Ian Kinsler a HOFer in the making?

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Utley is a power hitter, Polanco and Castillo were not. The fact that his non power stats (AVG and OBP) are comparable or slightly better than them means he did their job just as good or better than they did, while also putting up massive power numbers for a 2B.

I'm sorry, that means their offensive difference was night and day.
Again, I'm not arguing that Polanco and Castillo are better than or even as good as Utley, but if you are lowering the bar to vote for Utley (and you are lowering the bar to vote for him), why not lower it a little more to include Castillo and Polanco? Or Kinsler? Or the multitude of other players with similar stats.

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01-13-2014, 12:13 PM
  #847
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So you're one of the guys that would vote for less talented players that happen to have long careers because in the end their totals are better. Like Dave Andreychuk or Brind'amour over Eric Lindros or Peter Forsberg.

Frankly I find it dumb to compare raw numbers with no context. You can't look at totals without looking at games played, or their peak seasons. If a guy is a good player for 20 years, he's still only good, why should him playing for longer and amassing higher counting statistics matter if he was never great?

I already told you I don't think Utley will get in because injuries derailed his chance. But he is most definitely a HOF talent, and comparing him to guys who have never had a single season remotely comparable to his 5 best years, and trying to make it seem like they're comparable makes no sense.

It's funny you say "I go by what I saw on the field" and yet are comparing Chase Utley to Ian Kinsler. You can't seriously believe what you're typing. The eye test shows Utley is better, and so do the numbers. Utley is 16th all time among 2B in WAR. His top 7 seasons rank 8th all time among 2nd baseman. Kinsler 50th and 32nd respectively.

I also like that you point out that Utey's averages will go down because of his age, yet you were dismissing people who pointed out to you how old Chooch was when you said you couldn't see a reason why he wouldn't hit for his career average numbers.

You can't have it both ways there man.

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01-13-2014, 12:40 PM
  #848
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
So you're one of the guys that would vote for less talented players that happen to have long careers because in the end their totals are better. Like Dave Andreychuk or Brind'amour over Eric Lindros or Peter Forsberg.
Lindros I wouldn't vote for, Forsberg I would for reasons discussed ad nauseum in the Lindros HOF thread. But pretty much. Longevity is part of the consideration. A guy who plays long enough to hit 3,000 hits, score 500 goals, what have you, factors into the conversation as a plus just as much as a guy who got injured could have done it in fewer games is a negative. It's tough to play 20 years in the NHL or MLB and not be considered one of the best. Just playing that long is an accomplishment that doesn't happen unless you are truly a great player. It isn't the only thing, obviously, but it is a factor.

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Frankly I find it dumb to compare raw numbers with no context. You can't look at totals without looking at games played, or their peak seasons. If a guy is a good player for 20 years, he's still only good, why should him playing for longer and amassing higher counting statistics matter if he was never great?
I am looking at context. Because being just "good" is rarely going to get you the numbers you need to get into the HOF, regardless of how long you play. Typically the guys who play 20 years aren't guys that are just "good." And if they are, they don't get into the HOF. People make the argument against Craig Biggio for the HOF, that he was just a compiler of hits, and wasn't really that good. ut being able to put up 130 hits in your 20th year in the bigs to me isn't just compiling. That is no small feat in and of itself. Moises Alou played 17 years and batter .313 for his career. I wouldn't vote for him. He was a good player that played 17 years and compiled some impressive stats, but not HOF worthy stats.

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I already told you I don't think Utley will get in because injuries derailed his chance. But he is most definitely a HOF talent, and comparing him to guys who have never had a single season remotely comparable to his 5 best years, and trying to make it seem like they're comparable makes no sense.
HOF talent is fine. I agree. If his non-peak years changed to be more like his peak years, I'd vote for him. If he didn't get injured, I bet they would have been, and I would have voted for him. But his talent doesn't get him in. It is his body of work.

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It's funny you say "I go by what I saw on the field" and yet are comparing Chase Utley to Ian Kinsler. You can't seriously believe what you're typing. The eye test shows Utley is better, and so do the numbers. Utley is 16th all time among 2B in WAR. His top 7 seasons rank 8th all time among 2nd baseman. Kinsler 50th and 32nd respectively.
I am not saying Kinsler is good enough to be in the HOF. That is the entire point of bringing him up. He is likely going to have comparable if not better numbers than Utley. I wouldn't vote for Kinsler and I wouldn't vote for Utley. It isn't just the numbers these guy put up, of course, but the numbers play a HUGE part in the voting.The WAR statistic that people love so much is great, but you don't just look at WAR and discount everything else. I don't know much about advanced stats so I'm not going to just discredit WAR, but at the same time, you can't just discredit a guy when all is said and done with (likely) more HR, SB, hits, and (likely) comparable BA, OPS, OBP, and SLG because one guy's WAR is better.

Quote:
I also like that you point out that Utey's averages will go down because of his age, yet you were dismissing people who pointed out to you how old Chooch was when you said you couldn't see a reason why he wouldn't hit for his career average numbers.

You can't have it both ways there man.
I never argued that Chooch's numbers wouldn't go down. I said they wouldn't drop off as drastically as some were saying. I was saying he should hit around .275 (I think is what I said), and others said there was no chance because he is 35. There also is a markedly different scenario involving one player with chronic knee injuries who has not really come close to his 162 game average in about five years, and one player without those injuries who surpassed (by far) his 162 game average a season ago.

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01-13-2014, 12:44 PM
  #849
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You have to be careful with longevity, there is a real fine line of guys just getting 2800 hits because he played for 22 years.

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01-13-2014, 12:58 PM
  #850
JDinkalage Morgoone
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You have to be careful with longevity, there is a real fine line of guys just getting 2800 hits because he played for 22 years.
In the same token, how is it a knock for a guy to remain a starter at the highest level of the sport for that long?

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