HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Cal Heeter

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-13-2014, 11:02 AM
  #26
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Have you watched him play?
Heeter or Emery?

I've seen Heeter very limited, but I am not knocking him at all. Emery I have seen play, and he doesn't look great. He's played well at times, and bad at others. My point is simply that if this was Erik Gustaffsson (or another younger player) people would likely be saying well just wait and see let's see what he can do, he can improve, he'll get better, etc. With veterans it is seems to always be, ok well this guy isn't going anywhere we need to replace him. With a younger player, I get it, it is likely that their play will improve. I understand. But it is not a given and their improvement is not guaranteed to reach the level you hope, even if they do improve. With a veteran, they don't always back either, but Emery (as recently as last season) has shown he can still play at a high level.

Emery hasn't looked good in all 13 of his games (13), but why are we talking about replacing him all of the sudden? We don't have patience to see if he can rebound? I'm not saying he will, and I'm not even necessarily saying that I'd be against replacing him, I just find it odd that there is no patience for a slumping veteran, but all the patience in the world for players around 25 or younger. I once again point out that people were ready to take the C from Claude Giroux earlier this year because of a poor start.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 11:11 AM
  #27
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 9,456
vCash: 500
He has a chronic hip injury that obviously limits his mobility. There are younger, cheaper and more healthy backup goalies out there.

You really need to get over your obsession with dragging Erik Gustafsson into every player discussion.

Curufinwe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 11:44 AM
  #28
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
He has a chronic hip injury that obviously limits his mobility. There are younger, cheaper and more healthy backup goalies out there.
I understand that, and like I said, I'm not necessarily opposed to replacing him, I even think when we signed him that I was against it because of the reasons you just stated. It's more of just a problem I have with the general idea on this board that patience is what wins Stanley Cups, but then patience only matters when you are talking about players you like or players that turn out better elsewhere. Gus and JvR come to mind regarding players that we should either have patience with or should have had patience with in the past. Mesz, the Schenns, and now Emery appear to fall into the category of guys for which patience doesn't matter. Mesz can't come back from injury. Brayden Schenn won't develop. Luke Schenn is done. Emery can't come back from an injury that happened three years ago (even though he played well last year and the year before and as far as I know has not re-injured that hip).

Quote:
You really need to get over your obsession with dragging Erik Gustafsson into every player discussion.
It's more of an obsession with the patience talked about around here, and the fact that in my mind this guy is incredibly overrated. I know that people downplay how much he is overrated, but there were legitimately people saying he was a top four defender last year when he had 60 games played. Not saying he could be or will be a top four defender, but that he was a top four defender. If he turns out to be a good player, great. I'll be psyched. But my obsession with Gus is more directed to other folks' obsession with him. Not the player himself, more of the people obsessed with him. To me, Gus is an easily replaceable 5/6 guy.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 12:02 PM
  #29
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,234
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceHot View Post
Emery's problem is his positioning and over playing the angles, he's leaving himselve wide open nets because he can't sit his butt in the net and just go side to side post to post. The goalie coach fixed that issue with ML and he had that great run, I don't know why he hasn't pointed it out and fixed it with Emery.
I disagree with your diagnosis about overplaying angles being his issue, to a point, since he's not that aggressive positionally. However I guess when you can't move side-to-side or relly skate well at all, being anywhere other than deep in the center of your net is overplaying an angle. That's the issue with Emery: what is causing him to suck is not a coachable issue. He lacks the neccesary hip flexibility (and from the looks of it, leg strength) to tend goal at the NHL level. He just can't get low enough, wide enough, nor get up and down out of the butterfly fast enough. His body is done. He should probably retire and save whats left of his femoral head for the next 50 years of his life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
My point is, yet again, Flyers fans seem to have zero patience for any veteran who doesn't play well. If this was a young guy playing poorly, it would be all about not trading him have patience blah blah blah. But Emery, who was ridiculous last season, isn't playing well. People are talking about bringing up Cal Heeter and how Emery playing 12 more games might cost this team the playoffs.

Why are we counting out a guy who last season put up ridiculous numbers? Why do we not have patience for him to turn it around? You want to have patience for young players to see what they MIGHT turn into, but you don't have patience for a veteran to get back to the level that we KNOW he has reached in the past. It seems we are putting a lot more value on potential than is warranted. Now, of course I am not saying "TRADE ALL THE YOUNG GUYS FOR VETERANS!" I just find it odd that there is so much patience for youth (or at least a clamoring for this patience), but a veteran gets hurt or struggles and people want to trade him, bench him, waive him or whatever after a slow start/bad stretch/whatever. People wanted to take the ******* C away from Giroux in the beginning of the season! But they have plenty of patience for the rookies who might maybe one day possibly get close to being a regular third liner some day, maybe.
The reason all players don't benefit equally from fans' patience is because all players don't justify the same level of patience. Talented or otherwise promising players who are working through temporary health issues or the growing pains of breaking into the NHL justify patience. A guy who has a degenerative issue with his hips that keeps him from being able to compete and hold his own at an NHL level doesn't justify the same optimism. Ray Emery was a blocky, slow goalie before his hips started going. Now it's just terrible. You can't coach or play around a goalie having ****ed up hips. If your hips are done, you hang up the pads. Ray Emery is not going to get better, and he is no longer good enough, I don't care what he was able to do as the back-up last year on a dynasty level team.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 12:13 PM
  #30
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Heeter or Emery?

I've seen Heeter very limited, but I am not knocking him at all. Emery I have seen play, and he doesn't look great. He's played well at times, and bad at others. My point is simply that if this was Erik Gustaffsson (or another younger player) people would likely be saying well just wait and see let's see what he can do, he can improve, he'll get better, etc. With veterans it is seems to always be, ok well this guy isn't going anywhere we need to replace him. With a younger player, I get it, it is likely that their play will improve. I understand. But it is not a given and their improvement is not guaranteed to reach the level you hope, even if they do improve. With a veteran, they don't always back either, but Emery (as recently as last season) has shown he can still play at a high level.

Emery hasn't looked good in all 13 of his games (13), but why are we talking about replacing him all of the sudden? We don't have patience to see if he can rebound? I'm not saying he will, and I'm not even necessarily saying that I'd be against replacing him, I just find it odd that there is no patience for a slumping veteran, but all the patience in the world for players around 25 or younger. I once again point out that people were ready to take the C from Claude Giroux earlier this year because of a poor start.
Emery. And Giroux the Damaja nailed it.

You still clearly have no idea what differentiates "justified patience" and "patience for the sake of being patient."

Edit: Oh, and remember that conversation about whether Leighton was an NHL caliber backup where I showed the average save percentage for backups is .910? Emery is sitting at .896, which is bad.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 12:34 PM
  #31
Striiker
Orange and Black
 
Striiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,028
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
My point is, yet again, Flyers fans seem to have zero patience for any veteran who doesn't play well. If this was a young guy playing poorly, it would be all about not trading him have patience blah blah blah. But Emery, who was ridiculous last season, isn't playing well. People are talking about bringing up Cal Heeter and how Emery playing 12 more games might cost this team the playoffs.

Why are we counting out a guy who last season put up ridiculous numbers? Why do we not have patience for him to turn it around? You want to have patience for young players to see what they MIGHT turn into, but you don't have patience for a veteran to get back to the level that we KNOW he has reached in the past. It seems we are putting a lot more value on potential than is warranted. Now, of course I am not saying "TRADE ALL THE YOUNG GUYS FOR VETERANS!" I just find it odd that there is so much patience for youth (or at least a clamoring for this patience), but a veteran gets hurt or struggles and people want to trade him, bench him, waive him or whatever after a slow start/bad stretch/whatever. People wanted to take the ******* C away from Giroux in the beginning of the season! But they have plenty of patience for the rookies who might maybe one day possibly get close to being a regular third liner some day, maybe.
How about because Emery is not a young player who might just need time to put it together, he's a vet who's playing bad because of a documented injury problem. It's not an injury that just occurred and is going to get better either. And yes, him playing 12 more games could cost them the playoffs if he's as bad as he has been. Hypothetically, lets pretend he plays poorly and costs them 6 of those games (which is being generous), that's 12 points right there, not to mention they could be against divisional opponents. That's enough to lose a playoff spot.

Also believe it or not, the team he was on last season was a little better than decent, that might have had something to do with his stats. Pretty sure Leighton could look good on the Hawks.

Striiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 01:22 PM
  #32
DeflatedFootball7
Registered User
 
DeflatedFootball7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Belleville
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,967
vCash: 500
It's not so much I want Heeter as I don't want Emery.

DeflatedFootball7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 01:37 PM
  #33
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Emery. And Giroux the Damaja nailed it.

You still clearly have no idea what differentiates "justified patience" and "patience for the sake of being patient."
I do, it just seems to me like around here "justified patience" means "the patience required to support your argument." If it is a player you like, patience. If it is a team whipping boy, no patience. Emery got hurt what three years ago? He played fine since then. NOW it is the injury that is holding him back. Where was that injury in November when he went 3-3 with a .926 save percentage? I understand that he is injured and it is less likely for him to regain his form...but that injury was years ago. I was vocal about not re-signing him when he left because of his injury. He proved that it wasn't an issue (IIRC, most on here said a one year deal is fine because he showed the injury doesn't really hamper him like expected). But now he isn't playing great (behind a pretty atrocious defense I might add), and it is the injury and we have no patience this is not justified move along. It doesn't add up to me.

You want patience, great. You want justified patience ok. But why not justify to me why this situation doesn't warrant patience? Because he got injured two years ago? That doesn't sound like a good argument to me because he bounced back quite nicely since then. Now, if he re-injured it and I just missed it, well that is an entirely different story. But if you are just speculated that his poor play is his hip, you are using your "justifiable patience" argument to my exact definition (i.e. that it supports your argument, not the need for patience).

Quote:
Edit: Oh, and remember that conversation about whether Leighton was an NHL caliber backup where I showed the average save percentage for backups is .910? Emery is sitting at .896, which is bad.
Great. Once again, I am not necessarily saying that I am against the idea of replacing Emery. It is the patience thing that gets me about many on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
How about because Emery is not a young player who might just need time to put it together, he's a vet who's playing bad because of a documented injury problem. It's not an injury that just occurred and is going to get better either.
First of all, he's only played in 13 games, and in about half of them he hasn't look bad, so its not like this is a guy who just can no longer play the game. Second of all as I noted above, this is an injury that didn't stop him from being pretty damned good the last three seasons. So again I ask, where was this injury then? He wasn't as good two years ago in Chicago, they had patience with him and look what he did last year. Not saying that is going to happen, but is this how quickly we turn on a guy? 13 games? Are we trading VL now too, he hasn't looked good since coming back from injury. He's toast.

Quote:
And yes, him playing 12 more games could cost them the playoffs if he's as bad as he has been. Hypothetically, lets pretend he plays poorly and costs them 6 of those games (which is being generous), that's 12 points right there, not to mention they could be against divisional opponents. That's enough to lose a playoff spot.
Sure, hypothetically it is, but that can be said about any backup goalie. By definition your backup is not going to be as good as your starter. Starting your backup, regardless of who it is (Danis, Heeter, an outside guy), is going to give you less of a chance to win than with Mason out there.

Quote:
Also believe it or not, the team he was on last season was a little better than decent, that might have had something to do with his stats. Pretty sure Leighton could look good on the Hawks.
Absolutely the Hawks were better, but you don't just discredit everything he did because the team was better. If you do, then you gotta discredit the bad here. You don't get to take away the good because he was on a better team, then stick him with the bad while he is on a worse team. If your team affects the way you play in net when the team is good, then it does the same thing when they aren't as good.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 01:44 PM
  #34
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,661
vCash: 500
Not a big fan of goalie stats over such a small sample. Two games have torpedoed Emery's stats this year. If you take out the Caps game and the Blackhawks game, his save % goes up to .915. If anything, he's showed that he's a solid backup if the Flyers are able to play actual competitive hockey in front of him.

If they want to look for an upgrade, fine, but I doubt Heeter is that guy. And backup goalie is pretty far down the list of things this team needs to improve.

zarley zelepukin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 01:52 PM
  #35
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,782
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceHot View Post
Emery's problem is his positioning and over playing the angles, he's leaving himselve wide open nets because he can't sit his butt in the net and just go side to side post to post. The goalie coach fixed that issue with ML and he had that great run, I don't know why he hasn't pointed it out and fixed it with Emery.
Emery will never be fast moving post to post, his hip simply can't.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 02:36 PM
  #36
Doors
Registered User
 
Doors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 193
vCash: 500
I say call him up and try him out for a game or two!

Doors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 02:57 PM
  #37
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I do, it just seems to me like around here "justified patience" means "the patience required to support your argument." If it is a player you like, patience. If it is a team whipping boy, no patience. Emery got hurt what three years ago? He played fine since then. NOW it is the injury that is holding him back. Where was that injury in November when he went 3-3 with a .926 save percentage? I understand that he is injured and it is less likely for him to regain his form...but that injury was years ago. I was vocal about not re-signing him when he left because of his injury. He proved that it wasn't an issue (IIRC, most on here said a one year deal is fine because he showed the injury doesn't really hamper him like expected). But now he isn't playing great (behind a pretty atrocious defense I might add), and it is the injury and we have no patience this is not justified move along. It doesn't add up to me.

You want patience, great. You want justified patience ok. But why not justify to me why this situation doesn't warrant patience? Because he got injured two years ago? That doesn't sound like a good argument to me because he bounced back quite nicely since then. Now, if he re-injured it and I just missed it, well that is an entirely different story. But if you are just speculated that his poor play is his hip, you are using your "justifiable patience" argument to my exact definition (i.e. that it supports your argument, not the need for patience).
Because we simply do not have time for Emery to heal his hip, something which may never, ever happen considering the nature of the problem. That doesn't justify patience, especially not at a position as incredibly important as goal. Nothing sinks a team faster than bad goaltending. That's why it's justified.

His play has dramatically dropped off from his 6 starts in November. He has a gimpy hip. That's not something known to get better over time or with more work. Since November he has 8 appearances and 5 of them are under .910, some of them significantly under that mark. He has generally started looking slower and slower as time goes on...now it looks like he's slow to even get up, which wasn't a problem to start the season.

Based on the progression we've seen there's very little reason to be patient, and he's 31 on top of that...not a good age to be dealing with chronic hip issues. If you don't understand that there's no point trying to explain further. It's been explained very clearly and very plainly to you, it seems like you're being willfully obtuse with this.

Edit: Basically, there is VERY little upside to Emery. It's more than likely that, from here on out, it's only decline. Why bother being patient with that?

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 03:36 PM
  #38
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Because we simply do not have time for Emery to heal his hip, something which may never, ever happen considering the nature of the problem. That doesn't justify patience, especially not at a position as incredibly important as goal. Nothing sinks a team faster than bad goaltending. That's why it's justified.
Is his hip injured any more than it was last year? I honestly don't know the answer to this question. I haven't heard that he did anything to it since coming here. If it is, then ok I take back my entire argument. But I have not seen anything regarding that being the case.

Quote:
His play has dramatically dropped off from his 6 starts in November. He has a gimpy hip. That's not something known to get better over time or with more work. Since November he has 8 appearances and 5 of them are under .910, some of them significantly under that mark. He has generally started looking slower and slower as time goes on...now it looks like he's slow to even get up, which wasn't a problem to start the season.
Definitely a sample size worth making a decision.

Quote:
Based on the progression we've seen there's very little reason to be patient, and he's 31 on top of that...not a good age to be dealing with chronic hip issues. If you don't understand that there's no point trying to explain further. It's been explained very clearly and very plainly to you, it seems like you're being willfully obtuse with this.
Again, this hip issue is not something new (unless I am missing something). He had the issue last season and was pretty much lights out. But now, over the last eight games, his hip injury is killing him and making play awful and there is no time to wait and see if he comes back. Again, unless he has re-injured his hip I don't see why this injury that didn't affect him last year when he was dominating, all of the sudden makes him worse than Michael Leighton.

Quote:
Edit: Basically, there is VERY little upside to Emery. It's more than likely that, from here on out, it's only decline. Why bother being patient with that?
Again, I'm not so sure this small sample size shows anything at all. After those six games in November I didn't hear you talking about how we've got a solution in net, but these last 8 games...man...those are the REAL Ray Emery.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 03:40 PM
  #39
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 9,456
vCash: 500
I've never seen anyone more determined to to deny reality on a hockey forum. Honestly, I've had enough.

Curufinwe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 03:45 PM
  #40
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I've never seen anyone more determined to to deny reality on a hockey forum. Honestly, I've had enough.
So you are going to tell me, that a hip injury that happened three years ago, and didn't stop him from putting up very good numbers since that time, is all of the sudden a problem, despite there being no evidence of some re-injury of that three year old injury. That injury that didn't stop him last year, or the year before, or the year before that, is now preventing him from playing well and there is no time to waste because it is only going to get worse because he played poorly recently. That is your story. And I am denying reality because I said that people on here have a definition of patience that they use to fit their different arguments.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 03:53 PM
  #41
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,080
vCash: 500
Ask Hawk fans about Emery. They'll tell you straight out his movement is atrocious. I don't think it has gotten worse, if at all, slightly. Regardless Emery is just playing behind a significantly worse defense and team as a whole. The fact is Emery has not been good here and to think he'd improve significantly really makes no sense, considering there is no basis to make such a claim.

This team needs an athletic goal, it's why Mason has had success here, it's why Bobrovsky was good here. It's also why Leighton, Bryz and Emery have sucked.

Heeter sure as hell is better in terms of mobility and athleticism which is what this team needs. Having watched him the past two years I don't see why he couldn't do better then Emery, cause that's really not saying much.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 03:54 PM
  #42
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Is his hip injured any more than it was last year? I honestly don't know the answer to this question. I haven't heard that he did anything to it since coming here. If it is, then ok I take back my entire argument. But I have not seen anything regarding that being the case.
Actually, I think it is. He's noticeably less mobile and a lot slower overall than he was last year, based on the games I watched with him playing. It's been mentioned that he even struggles to get back to his feet now. That wasn't an issue last season.

Quote:
Definitely a sample size worth making a decision.
If you're merely stat-gazing, it's not enough, but the straight month of lackluster inconsistent play should be raising eyebrows. If you're taking the stats along with what he's showing on the ice, it well could be. If he keeps putting the team in a hole with weak play an alternative needs to be sought for.



Quote:
Again, this hip issue is not something new (unless I am missing something). He had the issue last season and was pretty much lights out. But now, over the last eight games, his hip injury is killing him and making play awful and there is no time to wait and see if he comes back. Again, unless he has re-injured his hip I don't see why this injury that didn't affect him last year when he was dominating, all of the sudden makes him worse than Michael Leighton.
1) He was a lot more sheltered last year behind an excellent Chicago team

2) he was more mobile in general last year.



Quote:
Again, I'm not so sure this small sample size shows anything at all. After those six games in November I didn't hear you talking about how we've got a solution in net, but these last 8 games...man...those are the REAL Ray Emery.
Again...context. Why are you struggling so mightily to grasp these concepts?

Watching Emery play in November was stressful to say the least. His lateral movement was awful. He was constantly getting caught out of position and bailed out by the D or the opposition missing on chances. It's caught up to him, and it doesn't help that he actually looks even slower now than he did two months ago.

Seriously, I'm done here. It's clear you're either arguing for the sake of argument, or you're being willfully ignorant to prove some sort of point and it isn't working because it makes no sense on a fundamental level. Either way it's a waste of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So you are going to tell me, that a hip injury that happened three years ago, and didn't stop him from putting up very good numbers since that time, is all of the sudden a problem, despite there being no evidence of some re-injury of that three year old injury. That injury that didn't stop him last year, or the year before, or the year before that, is now preventing him from playing well and there is no time to waste because it is only going to get worse because he played poorly recently. That is your story. And I am denying reality because I said that people on here have a definition of patience that they use to fit their different arguments.
Dude, we aren't talking about a minor injury here. Doctors told him he would never be able to play again. It's a medical miracle he was able to come back. It was thought his career would be over. And ever since the injury, he has been a lot slower. It's not like he rolled an ankle three years ago. This is the kind of injury that would earn a normal person a handicapped parking spot for the rest of their life. The only reason Emery is different is because of that whole "pro athletes are on a different level of conditioning" thing, and even then it's VERY clearly had a large impact.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 04:02 PM
  #43
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,722
vCash: 500
Emery's lateral movement hasn't gotten any worse since they signed him. It was just always atrocious. I'm not sure how their professional scouting looked at him and thought that he was good option to sign. He's ok as long as pucks are just hitting him, but the second that he gets moving, he looks like a beer league goalie.

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 04:36 PM
  #44
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Actually, I think it is. He's noticeably less mobile and a lot slower overall than he was last year, based on the games I watched with him playing. It's been mentioned that he even struggles to get back to his feet now. That wasn't an issue last season.
Ok, and like I said, if he has re-injured his hip, this is a different conversation. I haven't heard anything to that effect, but if that is the case then forget about it. Like I said from the beginning, I don't necessarily have a problem with moving on from Emery (I didn't even really want him here IIRC), my problem was the lack of patience people had with him in the absence of any recent injury. If he was injured, then nevermind.

Quote:
If you're merely stat-gazing, it's not enough, but the straight month of lackluster inconsistent play should be raising eyebrows. If you're taking the stats along with what he's showing on the ice, it well could be. If he keeps putting the team in a hole with weak play an alternative needs to be sought for.
But still, with a stat size this small, you shouldn't make any rash decisions. I mean, if you looked at it after November, this wouldn't be an issue. Now, 8 games later he is finished? I mean what if his next four games are lights out, does that mean we should re-sign him? That's the problem with these knee-jerk reactions to small sample sizes.

Quote:
1) He was a lot more sheltered last year behind an excellent Chicago team

2) he was more mobile in general last year.
Still doesn't really indicate to me that he won't turn it around. Without an injury taking place (or re-injury taking place), you generally don't just fall off the map. Sure it is possible, but again, my idea of patience is a guy who put up ridiculous numbers last year, should be given a shot to turn it around after 13 games. Your opinion is that his injury that happened three years ago is just now turning him into Michael Leighton, something that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Maybe I'm wrong, because I am not a doctor, but a terrible injury from three years ago that hasn't hampered his play over the last three years doesn't just all of the sudden make you suck. If Stamkos has a bad year three years from now will it be because of his broken leg this year? Of course not.

Quote:
Again...context. Why are you struggling so mightily to grasp these concepts?

Watching Emery play in November was stressful to say the least. His lateral movement was awful. He was constantly getting caught out of position and bailed out by the D or the opposition missing on chances. It's caught up to him, and it doesn't help that he actually looks even slower now than he did two months ago.

Seriously, I'm done here. It's clear you're either arguing for the sake of argument, or you're being willfully ignorant to prove some sort of point and it isn't working because it makes no sense on a fundamental level. Either way it's a waste of time.
Ok then.

Quote:
Dude, we aren't talking about a minor injury here. Doctors told him he would never be able to play again. It's a medical miracle he was able to come back. It was thought his career would be over. And ever since the injury, he has been a lot slower. It's not like he rolled an ankle three years ago. This is the kind of injury that would earn a normal person a handicapped parking spot for the rest of their life. The only reason Emery is different is because of that whole "pro athletes are on a different level of conditioning" thing, and even then it's VERY clearly had a large impact.
See above regarding the fact that it didn't stop him from putting up good numbers since the time of the injury. Without re-injuring the hip, I don't see why it all of the sudden is his downfall. Where was it last year in Chicago? Where was it the two prior years in Anaheim?

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 04:39 PM
  #45
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok, and like I said, if he has re-injured his hip, this is a different conversation. I haven't heard anything to that effect, but if that is the case then forget about it. Like I said from the beginning, I don't necessarily have a problem with moving on from Emery (I didn't even really want him here IIRC), my problem was the lack of patience people had with him in the absence of any recent injury. If he was injured, then nevermind.



But still, with a stat size this small, you shouldn't make any rash decisions. I mean, if you looked at it after November, this wouldn't be an issue. Now, 8 games later he is finished? I mean what if his next four games are lights out, does that mean we should re-sign him? That's the problem with these knee-jerk reactions to small sample sizes.



Still doesn't really indicate to me that he won't turn it around. Without an injury taking place (or re-injury taking place), you generally don't just fall off the map. Sure it is possible, but again, my idea of patience is a guy who put up ridiculous numbers last year, should be given a shot to turn it around after 13 games. Your opinion is that his injury that happened three years ago is just now turning him into Michael Leighton, something that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Maybe I'm wrong, because I am not a doctor, but a terrible injury from three years ago that hasn't hampered his play over the last three years doesn't just all of the sudden make you suck. If Stamkos has a bad year three years from now will it be because of his broken leg this year? Of course not.



Ok then.



See above regarding the fact that it didn't stop him from putting up good numbers since the time of the injury. Without re-injuring the hip, I don't see why it all of the sudden is his downfall. Where was it last year in Chicago? Where was it the two prior years in Anaheim?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degeneration_%28medical%29


He doesn't need to "re-injure" his hip. It can just get worse and worse and affect him more and more as time goes on. And time has done nothing but go on since that injury. More wear and tear has occurred. Compared to what I saw from him in Anaheim and Chicago, and even compared to early in the year to now, he is wearing down. And his ceiling wasn't all that high to begin with.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 04:40 PM
  #46
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
Country: England
Posts: 13,214
vCash: 500
hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" business, it just is..

as nice as it would be to keep guys well past their prime because they were legends on a team in this day and age of salary cap. that doesnt mean u keep current dead weight.

if your not getting it done so to speak, u need to go.

regardless of who it is.

Briere is a perfect example. people will always love him in Philly, but the fact is he needed to go.

Flyerfan4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 04:53 PM
  #47
Striiker
Orange and Black
 
Striiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,028
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You want patience, great. You want justified patience ok. But why not justify to me why this situation doesn't warrant patience? Because he got injured two years ago? That doesn't sound like a good argument to me because he bounced back quite nicely since then. Now, if he re-injured it and I just missed it, well that is an entirely different story. But if you are just speculated that his poor play is his hip, you are using your "justifiable patience" argument to my exact definition (i.e. that it supports your argument, not the need for patience).
I don't think this situation warrants patience because it doesn't look like being patient could help. If he was a young player he might just need time to figure it out or maybe gain confidence. If he had a short term injury then that would be a good reason to be patient because he could still recover and start playing better. But neither of those scenarios are the case, he's an old player who's playing the same now as he will in a month or two or three. The injury isn't going to get better and it isn't a matter of him learning how to succeed at the NHL level, the problem is his body isn't up to it anymore. If Heeter had been in all of those game instead of Emery I would have a bit more patience with him because he's never played at the NHL level before and he probably wouldn't be great immediately, but there is the possibility that as he gets more experience he could get better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
First of all, he's only played in 13 games, and in about half of them he hasn't look bad, so its not like this is a guy who just can no longer play the game. Second of all as I noted above, this is an injury that didn't stop him from being pretty damned good the last three seasons. So again I ask, where was this injury then? He wasn't as good two years ago in Chicago, they had patience with him and look what he did last year. Not saying that is going to happen, but is this how quickly we turn on a guy? 13 games? Are we trading VL now too, he hasn't looked good since coming back from injury. He's toast.
.
In the games where he played well he wasn't playing against very good teams and on top of that the defense was playing a whole lot better than they are now. It's specifically in games where he needs to be a bit athletic when he does horrible, he just can't keep up anymore because of his injury. The last couple of seasons he was on a very good team that was masking how badly the injury was effecting him. The injury was still there but the fact that he was on a Stanely cup winning team that nearly broke the all time record for most wins without losing in regulation definitely explains why he looked better than he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Absolutely the Hawks were better, but you don't just discredit everything he did because the team was better. If you do, then you gotta discredit the bad here. You don't get to take away the good because he was on a better team, then stick him with the bad while he is on a worse team. If your team affects the way you play in net when the team is good, then it does the same thing when they aren't as good.
It's like how Bryz appeared to be good when he was in PHX but was exposed as being bad when he wasn't on a team whos defense sheltered him. It's not like he's playing horrible just because the defense is leaving him exposed, you can easily see how slow he is just by watching him try to move. There have been a lot of goals against him that could have easily been saved if he wasn't stuck on the other side of the net unable to slide back in time. I'm not saying he's never been good and that he's 100% bad, he's had one or two really strong games where him being slow didn't really effect anything, but he's been horrible enough times that I think they need to look into other options.

Striiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2014, 06:30 PM
  #48
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,234
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Avascular necrosis is not something that needs to be reinjured. The issue with Emery's hip is not that he had some trauma to it three years ago and it has since healed and been reaggrivated. He has a degenerative bone issue in his hips. I've had injuries and tried to finish out a season or a play-offs on an injured hip before. I know what a goalie's movement looks like when he is trying to nurse one or two bad hips along. Emery's hips hurt him after and likely during every game he plays. I'd bet a lot on it.

Look at him get up next time he plays. If a puck is in your zone as a goalie, usually you're keeping your hands up and ready and your torso upright and aimed at the play while your legs move fairly independantly to get you back into the shot lane. If the puck is to your left and you're down in the butterfly, you plant your right skate and in one motion begin your stride towards the puck and lifting yourself up off the ice. Varlamov, Schneider and Jack Campbell for the Stars all execute this recovery super smooth and efficient. So they flow like water from the butterfly to their ready stance. Mason's pretty good about it too. During Emery's recovery from the butterfly he is bent over (not upright), he plants his foot down with his shin straight up in front of him (with no rotation, abduction or adduction of the hip joint). He then puts his blocker or his glove on the top of the upright pad and pushes his torso up as he stands. Once this motion is done and he is fully upright, he moves to the shot lane.

There are a couple explanations why a goalie would do this. If they didn't know better technique they might, but Emery surely does know better. If they're just lazy, which again I don't think is the case for Emery. Or if their legs and core are too weak to get up and over at the same time. This is possibly true if you're a heavy goalie (Emery isn't) or if your legs are weak from not being able to lift/run/train, which might be the case for him due to managing hip workload, but I really doubt that. My guess is that it isn't any of those. I think he has the leg and core strength to execute that technique, but loading the hip joint up with that much force while it's in the awkward position that recovery requires causes him a lot of pain. You can see, just from how he's moving, that he his hips are on the way out. Barring some really impressive feats of medecine, I don't know how this can get any better.



Any team that can shoot at his feet and crash the net for a rebound consistently, or move a puck east to west and quickly put a shot on goal is going to feast on Emery (I'm not talking a Stamkos one-timer either, I mean a simple wobbling wrist shot somewhere in the appropriate third of the net). In addition, if they get set up behind the net Emey struggles badly with this as well, since you need to be able to react and quickly get a foot against the post the puck carrier chooses to attack and seal the ice with your pad. He can't get wide enough or low enough to deal with this situation effectively, which is why you saw Carcillo score the way he did.

I am a bit of a student of goal tending technique and look for it during games, but I feel extremely confident that if I'm seeing this **** from my couch at home, then Jeff Reese is seeing it too. Yet these issues are getting worse and not better, and it's because you can't coach someone who isn't healthy enough to execute the techniques. The guy is done as a solid contributor in the NHL. He may get another team to carry him for one year after this one but his career is about over. No shame in it, he had a pretty amazing run considering his physical limitations.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 01-13-2014 at 06:52 PM.
Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2014, 08:53 AM
  #49
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,968
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degeneration_%28medical%29


He doesn't need to "re-injure" his hip. It can just get worse and worse and affect him more and more as time goes on. And time has done nothing but go on since that injury. More wear and tear has occurred. Compared to what I saw from him in Anaheim and Chicago, and even compared to early in the year to now, he is wearing down. And his ceiling wasn't all that high to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Avascular necrosis is not something that needs to be reinjured. The issue with Emery's hip is not that he had some trauma to it three years ago and it has since healed and been reaggrivated. He has a degenerative bone issue in his hips. I've had injuries and tried to finish out a season or a play-offs on an injured hip before. I know what a goalie's movement looks like when he is trying to nurse one or two bad hips along. Emery's hips hurt him after and likely during every game he plays. I'd bet a lot on it.

Look at him get up next time he plays. If a puck is in your zone as a goalie, usually you're keeping your hands up and ready and your torso upright and aimed at the play while your legs move fairly independantly to get you back into the shot lane. If the puck is to your left and you're down in the butterfly, you plant your right skate and in one motion begin your stride towards the puck and lifting yourself up off the ice. Varlamov, Schneider and Jack Campbell for the Stars all execute this recovery super smooth and efficient. So they flow like water from the butterfly to their ready stance. Mason's pretty good about it too. During Emery's recovery from the butterfly he is bent over (not upright), he plants his foot down with his shin straight up in front of him (with no rotation, abduction or adduction of the hip joint). He then puts his blocker or his glove on the top of the upright pad and pushes his torso up as he stands. Once this motion is done and he is fully upright, he moves to the shot lane.

There are a couple explanations why a goalie would do this. If they didn't know better technique they might, but Emery surely does know better. If they're just lazy, which again I don't think is the case for Emery. Or if their legs and core are too weak to get up and over at the same time. This is possibly true if you're a heavy goalie (Emery isn't) or if your legs are weak from not being able to lift/run/train, which might be the case for him due to managing hip workload, but I really doubt that. My guess is that it isn't any of those. I think he has the leg and core strength to execute that technique, but loading the hip joint up with that much force while it's in the awkward position that recovery requires causes him a lot of pain. You can see, just from how he's moving, that he his hips are on the way out. Barring some really impressive feats of medecine, I don't know how this can get any better.



Any team that can shoot at his feet and crash the net for a rebound consistently, or move a puck east to west and quickly put a shot on goal is going to feast on Emery (I'm not talking a Stamkos one-timer either, I mean a simple wobbling wrist shot somewhere in the appropriate third of the net). In addition, if they get set up behind the net Emey struggles badly with this as well, since you need to be able to react and quickly get a foot against the post the puck carrier chooses to attack and seal the ice with your pad. He can't get wide enough or low enough to deal with this situation effectively, which is why you saw Carcillo score the way he did.

I am a bit of a student of goal tending technique and look for it during games, but I feel extremely confident that if I'm seeing this **** from my couch at home, then Jeff Reese is seeing it too. Yet these issues are getting worse and not better, and it's because you can't coach someone who isn't healthy enough to execute the techniques. The guy is done as a solid contributor in the NHL. He may get another team to carry him for one year after this one but his career is about over. No shame in it, he had a pretty amazing run considering his physical limitations.
Well hey, I'm no doctor. If you guys are telling me that this is, in fact, the type of injury that lays dormant for three years, then all of the sudden creeps up without being re-injured, ok. I was unaware of that fact and withdraw my statements. Seems like if this was the case there would have been a little more concern from Anaheim, Chicago, and the Flyers (this fanbase too with the way we overreact about every signing). I don't recall people being too worried about his injury when he was signed.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2014, 09:16 AM
  #50
GingerFetish
Registered User
 
GingerFetish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 1,130
vCash: 500
Waive Rayzor, Bring up Heeter, and sign Boosh back to ADK. All hail the boomerang.

GingerFetish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.