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Time To Right a Fundamental Issue That Has Been Present Since Nov.19 2011

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Old
01-13-2014, 05:43 PM
  #26
hckyplayer8
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Whatever the trade is, it would be worth it in the end.

The team we have been given in wake of Pronger's departure is mediocre at best.

Blow it up.

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01-13-2014, 05:43 PM
  #27
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01-13-2014, 05:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
lol

I'm not suggesting a trade of that sort, but I am suggesting one or both could be part of a package deal for Weber.

Jake/Coots + Kimmo + Harts + Read/BSchenn for Weber ?

Get our D, Nash gets Kimmo to fill the gap till Jones starts to mature and also gets some offensive firepower that they need.
Kimmo isn't going to work. He might be retiring after this season or next. That's not enough to let Jones mature. You might have to switch him with Coburn, realistically.

Putting together various rosters with those possibilities is depressing. We would have Weber but we would still be a long ways from contention.

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01-13-2014, 05:51 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
lol

I'm not suggesting a trade of that sort, but I am suggesting one or both could be part of a package deal for Weber.

Jake/Coots + Kimmo + Harts + Read/BSchenn for Weber ?

Get our D, Nash gets Kimmo to fill the gap till Jones starts to mature and also gets some offensive firepower that they need.
Come back to reality.

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01-13-2014, 05:53 PM
  #30
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Just wait until 2015 and get Hanifin or Kylington! Easy.

And if they are out of reach get Werenski, Andersson, Pilon or Roy.

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01-13-2014, 05:55 PM
  #31
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The thought of gutting the team & tanking isn't realistic with this franchise so it's kind of a moot point to bring up.

I really do believe getting a nice mix of defenders who can bring both offense & defense would do wonders.

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01-13-2014, 05:58 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
The thought of gutting the team & tanking isn't realistic with this franchise so it's kind of a moot point to bring up.

I really do believe getting a nice mix of defenders who can bring both offense & defense would do wonders.
Yes but even then what you're suggesting would include getting rid of every defenseman currently on the roster...

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01-13-2014, 06:05 PM
  #33
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Yes but even then what you're suggesting would include getting rid of every defenseman currently on the roster...
Nope, I was suggesting to build through the draft like we've been doing. I'm not expecting an instant fix.

Plus there's still some guys I would keep on our defense like Coburn or Schenn.

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01-13-2014, 06:13 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Whatever the trade is, it would be worth it in the end.

The team we have been given in wake of Pronger's departure is mediocre at best.

Blow it up.
Just like gutting the team was worth it for Lindros?

Not only did the Flyers not win a Cup with Lindros, the pieces he was traded for directly impacted two Cups for Colorado... and you all ended up with me as a fan of the Flyers. Poor souls.

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01-13-2014, 06:20 PM
  #35
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Just like gutting the team was worth it for Lindros?

Not only did the Flyers not win a Cup with Lindros, the pieces he was traded for directly impacted two Cups for Colorado... and you all ended up with me as a fan of the Flyers. Poor souls.
They should have won under Lindros.

I don't see how Hextall and Snow falling flat on their face was on Lindros?

Also not like we lost to a super soft opponent either.

Detroit was hardly a pushover.

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01-13-2014, 06:23 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
They should have won under Lindros.

I don't see how Hextall and Snow falling flat on their face was on Lindros?

Also not like we lost to a super soft opponent either.

Detroit was hardly a pushover.
Building a team with the depth required to compete with the rising 90s dynasties probably would have been a lot easier without the Lindros trade.

Making the massive trades you're proposing put the Flyers in a similar situation. There's no guarantee they would be able to fill all those holes again before the window essentially shuts.

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01-13-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Thus it makes sense to seek a #1 D as our franchise player. Somebody that can control the flow of the game from our zone forward.

The most recent serious attempt to acquire such a piece was the OS of Shea Weber. I give props to Homer for having the balls to try such a move, however he did not succeed in finding such a player. I'd give Homer till the post season to make a major trade to find the player this team needs. If not its time to get off the Homer train. He has had his chance.
Once in a great while, those players are available. Mostly because David Poile is an idiot. #1 defensemen otherwise are not available. Everyone saw the Ducks, Oilers, and Blues hit the skids when Pronger was traded. That's why when you have one, you make sure you pay it forward and don't let them leave.

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01-13-2014, 06:44 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
The thought of gutting the team & tanking isn't realistic with this franchise so it's kind of a moot point to bring up.

I really do believe getting a nice mix of defenders who can bring both offense & defense would do wonders.
This. We don't necessarily need a Weber-like player to contend. Having that good mix of defenders would work fine. Which is why being patient with guys like Morin, Hagg, and Ghost is important.

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01-13-2014, 07:00 PM
  #39
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This. We don't necessarily need a Weber-like player to contend. Having that good mix of defenders would work fine. Which is why being patient with guys like Morin, Hagg, and Ghost is important.
I wouldn't count on it but I don't think it's totally unrealistic to think of Gostisbehere & Alt possibly being in the lineup at some point next year depending on if they keep progressing like they have been so far this year.

Of course Gostisbehere would still have to sign a contract making him more of an unknown between the two at this point.

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01-13-2014, 07:03 PM
  #40
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That's a great plan. Gut the team for one player. Then we can be the Minnesota Wild. I agree that the defense needs to seriously be revamped, but not at the expense of so many assets. The only way to get an elite player is through the draft or luck in free agency.

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01-13-2014, 07:04 PM
  #41
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I'm surprised at the overall agreement to stand pat and farm our own D.

Especially when you are essentially saying that the current group of core forwards are something special and not worth giving up for a elite guy like Weber.

Its been a small data set but the past three years offensive totals suggests that our group of guys isn't anything incredibly special.

Goals For Stats
11/12- Total GF- 260 2nd - 5on5 Total-168 6th
12/13- Total GF-132 9th - 5on5 Total- 83 19th
13/14- Total thus far- 118 19th - 5on5-75 22nd

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01-13-2014, 07:05 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
They should have won under Lindros.

I don't see how Hextall and Snow falling flat on their face was on Lindros?

Also not like we lost to a super soft opponent either.

Detroit was hardly a pushover.
The Flyers moved a lot of pieces to acquire Lindros and Lindros (like any other player) couldn't win a championship on his own. When the Flyers built up the team around him, they still couldn't win.

The Flyers had one Final appearance under each of your two franchise players and no Cup victory. Clearly a franchise player doesn't guarantee victory, so why blow the team up?

There's a good core here that is a young group. If you blow it up, you're either moving the young pieces to get vets or you're moving the young pieces to get even younger. Neither is a strategy I would advocate, given that an entire rebuild is not necessary with this group.

If you have to trade a lot of the young core to acquire Weber (for example), now you're just stuck with Weber and a couple leftover pieces. How long until that group is ready to win, given that you can only replace the lost pieces through picks and free agency (under the assumption that you've most of your valuable pieces to acquire Weber)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I'm surprised at the overall agreement to stand pat and farm our own D.

Especially when you are essentially saying that the current group of core forwards are something special and not worth giving up for a elite guy like Weber.
It's not necessarily that the core group is so special that it shouldn't be broken up, it's that, once you trade for Weber, you'll have to rebuild the forwards.

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01-13-2014, 07:05 PM
  #43
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I wouldn't count on it but I don't think it's totally unrealistic to think of Gostisbehere & Alt possibly being in the lineup at some point next year depending on if they keep progressing like they have been so far this year.

Of course Gostisbehere would still have to sign a contract making him more of an unknown between the two at this point.
Alt is a maybe. But I seriously doubt we see Ghost, if he even turns pro next year. He needs a full season in the AHL to get used to a pro schedule and the rigors of the increased physicality.

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01-13-2014, 07:06 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I'm surprised at the overall agreement to stand pat and farm our own D.

Especially when you are essentially saying that the current group of core forwards are something special and not worth giving up for a elite guy like Weber.

Its been a small data set but the past three years offensive totals suggests that our group of guys isn't anything incredibly special.

Goals For Stats
11/12- Total GF- 260 2nd - 5on5 Total-168 6th
12/13- Total GF-132 9th - 5on5 Total- 83 19th
13/14- Total thus far- 118 19th - 5on5-75 22nd
All those stats get worse if you're trading Voracek/Couturier/Schenn/Read/Giroux, whatever combination of those guys is needed to force Nashville to give us Weber. And then there's no guarantee they get replaced quickly enough.

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01-13-2014, 07:09 PM
  #45
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It's brutal around here any time the team loses more than one game. How about we keep our young players and let them grow instead of trading them because gee they are inconsistent at 21 or 22 years old? I also find it ironic that it is mentioned pronged as the last impact player on the team but what happens when we gut the team for a guy like weber and the same thing happens? Keep the team in tact, they aren't as terrible as some on this board make it out to be, just need patience.

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01-13-2014, 07:12 PM
  #46
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Alt is a maybe. But I seriously doubt we see Ghost, if he even turns pro next year. He needs a full season in the AHL to get used to a to schedule and the rigors of the increased physicality.
It all depends & like I said I wouldn't count on it but if he does join the Phantoms late this year for the final stretch & possibly playoffs it could bump his ETA up a little to where maybe he joins the Flyers late in the season next year ala Torrey Krug.

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01-13-2014, 07:13 PM
  #47
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It's not necessarily that the core group is so special that it shouldn't be broken up, it's that, once you trade for Weber, you'll have to rebuild the forwards.
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
All those stats get worse if you're trading Voracek/Couturier/Schenn/Read/Giroux, whatever combination of those guys is needed to force Nashville to give us Weber. And then there's no guarantee they get replaced quickly enough.
The ratio of elite D to elite fwds leans heavily towards the fwds.

Would make more sense to get an established D (who is in his prime) and build around him rather than hope and pray one of our draft picks grow to be 1/4 of what he is, no?

What about the rest of the D squad. The only thing better than Weber would be Weber plus our own version of Seth Jones.

Fits well being Kimmo and Grossman are on their downswing.
Could throw Coburn in there too.

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01-13-2014, 07:16 PM
  #48
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It's brutal around here any time the team loses more than one game. How about we keep our young players and let them grow instead of trading them because gee they are inconsistent at 21 or 22 years old? I also find it ironic that it is mentioned pronged as the last impact player on the team but what happens when we gut the team for a guy like weber and the same thing happens? Keep the team in tact, they aren't as terrible as some on this board make it out to be, just need patience.
Its not common growing pain inconsistency.

Its a huge flaw in our core.

The fact that now under two different coaches we have zero answers for teams that aggressively forecheck us is alarming.

How can it not be?

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01-13-2014, 07:16 PM
  #49
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I won't even disagree that the team would be greatly improved with the ability to get the puck and slow the game down and control play for a shift. That's a fine assertion. Your suggestion that the way to remedy this is to try and acquire one of the few guys in the world who can do this single handedly is crazy talk though. Peter Forsbergs don't grow on trees.

If you want puck control and possession, fine. You don't need to sell everything trying to get one of the four or five guys in the world who can do that single handedly. You would do just as well to get a dominant puck possession line, which is a lot more realistic item to put on the Holmgren wishlist. We had this for a while when Jagr was here. Giroux, plus two big, strong wingers who can go into the corner and get it and and don't have cement hands. That's what you need, another guy in the old-Jagr mold. I think Vinny, once he's healthy again, fits that mold extremely well. Vinny-Giroux-Jake would be a monster puck possession/cycling line to send out if that's what you need. Hartnell-Giroux-Jake should be alright in this regard too, but I think Hartsy's puck skills are just a tick too clumsy to really filll that role. Hell, Couturier-Lecavlier-Jake would be ridiculous for this purpose as well.

If cultivating the ability to slow the game down and control the puck for decent stretches was a priority, the coaching staff has the personnel here to make a line that can do that very well. I just don't think it's a pillar of Berube's approach.

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01-13-2014, 07:21 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
All those stats get worse if you're trading Voracek/Couturier/Schenn/Read/Giroux, whatever combination of those guys is needed to force Nashville to give us Weber. And then there's no guarantee they get replaced quickly enough.
Yeh, you do something like that...

and you become Nashville or Minnesota.

You have ~4 top 6 forwards, 6 top 9 forwards and have another problem to deal with that is not easy to circumvent. Your team has trouble scoring more than 3 goals a night and is bottom 5 in production.

And are playing Victor Bartley or Clayton Stoner as a 6D and playing your bottom pair for 12-14 minutes a night vs mainly 4th lines so all your top 4 have to play over 20 night in night out. Which is not a great strategy if you make the playoffs.

Trading for a guy like Weber is literally just 'trading your poison.' You are no closer to being a competing team really... unless you just trade away ~3 1st rounders + a throw in (if they accept) and hope he does not get injured.

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