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Time To Right a Fundamental Issue That Has Been Present Since Nov.19 2011

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Old
01-13-2014, 06:24 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Yeh, you do something like that...

and you become Nashville or Minnesota.

You have ~4 top 6 forwards, 6 top 9 forwards and have another problem to deal with that is not easy to circumvent. Your team has trouble scoring more than 3 goals a night and is bottom 5 in production.

And are playing Victor Bartley or Clayton Stoner as a 6D and playing your bottom pair for 12-14 minutes a night vs mainly 4th lines so all your top 4 have to play over 20 night in night out. Which is not a great strategy if you make the playoffs.

Trading for a guy like Weber is literally just 'trading your poison.' You are no closer to being a competing team really... unless you just trade away ~3 1st rounders + a throw in (if they accept) and hope he does not get injured.
And since the team still has slots/needs in the forward group, missing those three first rounders will really hamper that building process. Plugging Weber onto this team as is does not automatically make a contender.

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01-13-2014, 06:29 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
And are playing Victor Bartley or Clayton Stoner as a 6D and playing your bottom pair for 12-14 minutes a night vs mainly 4th lines so all your top 4 have to play over 20 night in night out. Which is not a great strategy if you make the playoffs.
Clearly you missed when this strategy earned the Flyers a Cup in 2010.

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01-13-2014, 06:30 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Yeh, you do something like that...

and you become Nashville or Minnesota.

You have ~4 top 6 forwards, 6 top 9 forwards and have another problem to deal with that is not easy to circumvent. Your team has trouble scoring more than 3 goals a night and is bottom 5 in production.

And are playing Victor Bartley or Clayton Stoner as a 6D and playing your bottom pair for 12-14 minutes a night vs mainly 4th lines so all your top 4 have to play over 20 night in night out. Which is not a great strategy if you make the playoffs.

Trading for a guy like Weber is literally just 'trading your poison.' You are no closer to being a competing team really... unless you just trade away ~3 1st rounders + a throw in (if they accept) and hope he does not get injured.
That sounds familar circa 2010 with Lukas Krajicek & Ryan Parent.

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01-13-2014, 06:40 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Clearly you missed when this strategy earned the Flyers a Cup in 2010.
Funny enough I think this team wins the Finals in a walk if they have Mason in nets, even with broken backed Parent and Krajicek. The goaltending hole created by that strategy is what hurt us more than the third pairing hole. Granted I think third pairing issues like the ones we had would hurt almost any other team a lot, but for that Spring our top 4 D were unreal. Unlike anything I've ever seen 4 defensemen do before or since.

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01-13-2014, 06:44 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Funny enough I think this team wins the Finals in a walk if they have Mason in nets, even with broken backed Parent and Krajicek. The goaltending hole created by that strategy is what hurt us more than the third pairing hole. Granted I think third pairing issues like the ones we had would hurt almost any other team a lot, but for that Spring our top 4 D were unreal. Unlike anything I've ever seen 4 defensemen do before or since.
How about the guy they started that season with in Ray Emery? He was looking pretty good that year until he got hurt.

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01-13-2014, 06:44 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Clearly you missed when this strategy earned the Flyers a Cup in 2010.
Haha, yeh, but our top 4 was way better then than either Minny or Nashville now... or what our top 4 would be with Weber.

+ we had our forwards in place. There were like 8 top 6 forwards on that team and probably the best 4th line in the NHL at the time.

I know you know that though! (Hence the Cup reference.)

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01-13-2014, 06:44 PM
  #57
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I get wanting to get a top pairing defender, especially when Timonen is gone. Fact is, the Flyers just don't have the assets required to acquire one. At this point, I'm more than content to sit back and watch Gostisbehere, Morin, Hagg and Alt develop before our eyes. Those four guys have the potential to be four top pairing guys.

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01-13-2014, 06:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I get wanting to get a top pairing defender, especially when Timonen is gone. Fact is, the Flyers just don't have the assets required to acquire one. At this point, I'm more than content to sit back and watch Gostisbehere, Morin, Hagg and Alt develop before our eyes. Those four guys have the potential to be four top pairing guys.
Lol. I love your enthusiasm though.

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01-13-2014, 06:52 PM
  #59
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The Great Dane is the solution to all the Flyers problems.

The only thing he will do is guarantee we lead the league in penalties

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01-13-2014, 06:54 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Clearly you missed when this strategy earned the Flyers a Cup in 2010.
I'm confused by your comments like the above.

The Pronger trade was a main reason we contended for the Cup in 09/10.
Likewise Lindros was a main reason we contended for the Cup in the 90's.

If you are saying there is more to a Cup team than a single player, I agree.

But I don't understand how anybody can deny the correlation of team competitiveness and the aforementioned players.

I mean since Lindros we didn't even sniff the the SCF till Pronger came and we haven't even been close since.

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01-13-2014, 06:57 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I'm confused by your comments like the above.

The Pronger trade was a main reason we contended for the Cup in 09/10.
Likewise Lindros was a main reason we contended for the Cup in the 90's.

If you are saying there is more to a Cup team than a single player, I agree.

But I don't understand how anybody can deny the correlation of team competitiveness and the aforementioned players.

I mean since Lindros we didn't even sniff the the SCF till Pronger came and we haven't even been close since.
In the case of Lindros and Pronger they were parts of teams that were incomplete. Lindros's team lacked depth. Pronger's team lacked goaltending and a 3rd pairing.

Weber's team would lack a hell of a lot more than either one, considering the assets required to pry him free.

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01-13-2014, 07:01 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In the case of Lindros and Pronger they were parts of teams that were incomplete. Lindros's team lacked depth. Pronger's team lacked goaltending and a 3rd pairing.

Weber's team would lack a hell of a lot more than either one.
Hard to say being we don't know what pieces would revolve around the final deal.

I'm not sold that the amount of depth we have at fwd couldn't be covered up if we saw a departure of players like say Schenn and Jake.

Obviously Roo would be huge...which is why he remains one of the two unmovables.

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01-13-2014, 07:07 PM
  #63
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Alright Home-Bros, some Philly fans have suggested Hartnell to Ottawa.. there has been some mixed reaction but I personally think hed be a great fit on Spezzas wing.

Wiercioch is the guy that can make this deal mutually beneficial. Although losing him would suck because he seems to have good potential (2-3Dman), it has been rumored we are prepared to trade youth.

What do you guys think? im ready to manipulate this trade to make a deal.

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01-13-2014, 07:07 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Hard to say being we don't know what pieces would revolve around the final deal.

I'm not sold that the amount of depth we have at fwd couldn't be covered up if we saw a departure of players like say Schenn and Jake.

Obviously Roo would be huge...which is why he remains one of the two unmovables.
The only guys we have in the system who might conceivably be NHL players some day are Akeson, Laughton and Cousins. And I currently see no chance they come close to replacing Schenn or Jake, or anybody else for that matter.

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01-13-2014, 07:08 PM
  #65
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Pronger is 39 years old, yet some people talk like we would have prime Pronger if that "virus" didn't happen. He would probably still be a top defenseman, but Giroux is, and already was this team's best player when Pronger got injured.

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01-13-2014, 07:11 PM
  #66
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Alright Home-Bros, some Philly fans have suggested Hartnell to Ottawa.. there has been some mixed reaction but I personally think hed be a great fit on Spezzas wing.

Wiercioch is the guy that can make this deal mutually beneficial. Although losing him would suck because he seems to have good potential (2-3Dman), it has been rumored we are prepared to trade youth.

What do you guys think? im ready to manipulate this trade to make a deal.
All other variables aside, its up to Scott.

He has a NMC.

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01-13-2014, 07:13 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
Pronger is 39 years old, yet some people talk like we would have prime Pronger if that "virus" didn't happen. He would probably still be a top defenseman, but Giroux is, and already was this team's best player when Pronger got injured.
He was wearing down before the "virus" but I still think he would have been a competent defenseman in his remaining years on his contract not a #1 though.

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01-13-2014, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
All other variables aside, its up to Scott.

He has a NMC.
well im sure hed be willing to come play in Canada. But lets put that aside for a second, would you be interested in a deal involving Wiercioch? I think yes

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01-13-2014, 07:16 PM
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and NMC is different than a NTC

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01-13-2014, 07:17 PM
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and NMC is different than a NTC
You're right. It's even less flexible.

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01-13-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Hard to say being we don't know what pieces would revolve around the final deal.

I'm not sold that the amount of depth we have at fwd couldn't be covered up if we saw a departure of players like say Schenn and Jake.

Obviously Roo would be huge...which is why he remains one of the two unmovables.
Lupul + Sbisa + 2 1st rounders was the cost of a 35 year old Pronger. I can't imagine what the asking price would be for a 28 year old Weber.

Also, if you're adding draft picks, that sets the Flyers back even more because replacing the players who were traded away would probably have to come through the draft. And it's not like our forward prospect pool is very deep at the moment.

By the time the Flyers were ready to contend again, Weber would probably be in his mid 30's, leaving the window for a championship very, very small. It's just not worth it, IMO.

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01-13-2014, 07:24 PM
  #72
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You're right. It's even less flexible.
well hes not gonna get waived regardless, I was thinking NMC was where he had to select a list of teams he could not be traded too.. but thats not right. Still PUTTING THAT ASIDE can you answer the question at hand

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01-13-2014, 07:26 PM
  #73
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well hes not gonna get waived regardless, I was thinking NMC was where he had to select a list of teams he could not be traded too.. but thats not right. Still PUTTING THAT ASIDE can you answer the question at hand
We already have a plethora of top 4 D and top 4 D prospects. We need a #1.

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01-13-2014, 07:31 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I'm confused by your comments like the above.

The Pronger trade was a main reason we contended for the Cup in 09/10.
Likewise Lindros was a main reason we contended for the Cup in the 90's.

If you are saying there is more to a Cup team than a single player, I agree.

But I don't understand how anybody can deny the correlation of team competitiveness and the aforementioned players.

I mean since Lindros we didn't even sniff the the SCF till Pronger came and we haven't even been close since.
Game 7 of the ECF isn't a sniff? The 2004 team is the most complete team the Flyers have had since I was a fan and they didn't have a franchise player. Injuries ended that Cup run, but I would have liked their chances against Calgary had they beaten Tampa.

As to the confusion, the team was gutted to acquire Lindros and it took years to build a relevant team around him... and they still didn't win. Pronger was at the tail end of his prime when he was acquired, which is why he cost less than a Weber would today... and they still didn't win.

The teams that have won Cups recently have been patient with their youth and haven't traded it to acquire one large piece of the puzzle at the expense of the rest of the puzzle. It helps that these teams have had high first round picks to bolster their talent pool, but they built around that core of young talent instead of sacrificing it to get an established star.

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01-13-2014, 07:31 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We already have a plethora of top 4 D and top 4 D prospects. We need a #1.
oh, your the first Philly fan ive talked too who wouldn't do a deal around Hartnell and Wiercioch... well then, time to take my proposals elsewhere I guess lol

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