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Coyotes/Tippett's Development of Forward Prospects.

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Old
01-13-2014, 07:56 PM
  #1
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Coyotes/Tippett's Development of Forward Prospects.

MOD:Spun off of the Rundblad discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobra427 View Post
Oel was up for a while and back down his first year, that is normal. Tip does not base playing time on contracts. If you play well, you are in, if you don't it's AHL or healthy scrtch(runblad), merit system, it works...
Tippett has never developed an offensive forward. Ever. He chased two out of town. The merit system doesn't work when the only way to earn merit is to do something you've never been coached or asked to do. I would also never use OEL, a generational style D, as an example of a success story. He'd be fine in all thirty organizations. Even the Jackets or Jets couldn't ruin him.

The merit system is total ********* because young players, by definition, are not on the same playing field as vets. So to put Schlemko up against Murphy on even ground is fundamentally stupid and speaks to Tippett's inability or unwillingness to play young players for the sake of developing them.


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01-13-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cobra427 View Post
Oel was up for a while and back down his first year, that is normal. Tip does not base playing time on contracts. If you play well, you are in, if you don't it's AHL or healthy scrtch(runblad), merit system, it works...
Doesn't seem to jive with reality. There would have to be at least a half dozen of players that should be sitting right now, given the their performance in the last 5-10 games.

Honestly, this "merit system" often bantered about here, is more of a cover for coach having certain type of favored playing styles. It's fine that coaches have certain types of players that are favored in the system; most coaches do. But there is no need to use some other clearly factually untrue rationale to justify that.

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01-13-2014, 08:04 PM
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^ kinda. But Boedker is on pace for 25g and 30a.

Also, Mueller looked hot in a worthless run and gun free wheeling Joe Sacco offense. Which was about as effective as when he looked great playing for Wayne Gretzky who had no system of any kind. We'll never know what Mueller couldn've become due to the head injuries he sustained, but it's quite possible he was only ever going to put up points on crappy NHL teams with no structure or accountability. There have been guys like that in the past. He may have been one of them.

With Turris, I'd argue that if he'd had one year left on his contract, he'd have re-signed here a happy camper. His break out wouldn't have been as substantial as it was playing with ideal line mates in Foligno and Alfredsson, but I think he'd have seen a serious bump in minutes and improved numbers. Just like the Boedker curve.

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01-14-2014, 09:54 AM
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The complains about the 'merit system' might be well founded, but as far as Tippett refusing to develop offensive talent, I'm not sold.

Miele and Rundblad have shown NOTHING at the NHL level to warrant more minutes. Nothing at all. Not only have these 2 guys been weak defensively, they've done nothing offensively.

I think we all agree that keeping Domi in the AHL right now is the right thing to do for his development, unless we're excited about having another Turris situation on our hands.

As far as past history, what's our sample size?

- Peter Mueller. As rt mentioned, we have no idea whether he would have turned out into something.
- Kevin Porter. Enough said.
- Blake Wheeler. NEVER played for the Coyotes, let alone Tippett. Doesn't count.

That leaves us with Kyle Turris. A sample size of one. On the other hand, we're having success with Mikkel Boedker. So really, our track record is 50/50. And even in Turris' case, he very well might have developed under Tippett if he hadn't bolted. It's not like we traded the guy.

We've also seen great trust being given to OEL, Stone, Shlemko, Yandle and Murphy, all of who showed defensive weaknesses due to inexperience early on (OEL / Stone / Murphy / Shlemko) or simply because of their style of play (Yandle). The difference? Despite their growing pains, all these guys made plays and had an impact on games. The same cannot be said about Rundblad.

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01-14-2014, 11:39 AM
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Frist of all Max Domi plays in the OHL and not the AHL. I have a friend who is a scout in the OHL and he says he's a great prospect high end offensive skills. Not an aggressive player like his father.

As far as Rundlad he's been given some chances and has not made the most of them. He's a liablility back there. We have enough of those guys (see Yandle) . We really dont need his offense (from the D position).

We got burned in the Turris trade. He was not going anywhere as a restricted FA. It was a rush job to trade him and don Maloney plain and simply blew it. Like Blake Wheeler the Coyotes have done a poor job nurturing top level forwards and the results show.

As for Murphy the kids just not strong enough yet. He has a terrific hockey I.Q. but gets outmuscled in his own zone. Give him a couple of years and you will see a much better player. He's just like his dad.

Our D overall is too weak in the defensive zone. They continue to get outmuscled off the puck. It's a slick group with Z in there and they really miss his all around play.

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01-14-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azcanuck View Post
We got burned in the Turris trade. He was not going anywhere as a restricted FA. It was a rush job to trade him and don Maloney plain and simply blew it.
Your memory is failing you tremendously.

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01-14-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zz View Post
The complains about the 'merit system' might be well founded, but as far as Tippett refusing to develop offensive talent, I'm not sold.

Miele and Rundblad have shown NOTHING at the NHL level to warrant more minutes. Nothing at all. Not only have these 2 guys been weak defensively, they've done nothing offensively.

I think we all agree that keeping Domi in the AHL right now is the right thing to do for his development, unless we're excited about having another Turris situation on our hands.

As far as past history, what's our sample size?

- Peter Mueller. As rt mentioned, we have no idea whether he would have turned out into something.
- Kevin Porter. Enough said.
- Blake Wheeler. NEVER played for the Coyotes, let alone Tippett. Doesn't count.

That leaves us with Kyle Turris. A sample size of one. On the other hand, we're having success with Mikkel Boedker. So really, our track record is 50/50. And even in Turris' case, he very well might have developed under Tippett if he hadn't bolted. It's not like we traded the guy.

We've also seen great trust being given to OEL, Stone, Shlemko, Yandle and Murphy, all of who showed defensive weaknesses due to inexperience early on (OEL / Stone / Murphy / Shlemko) or simply because of their style of play (Yandle). The difference? Despite their growing pains, all these guys made plays and had an impact on games. The same cannot be said about Rundblad.
I agree, good post.

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01-14-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azcanuck View Post
We got burned in the Turris trade. He was not going anywhere as a restricted FA. It was a rush job to trade him and don Maloney plain and simply blew it. Like Blake Wheeler the Coyotes have done a poor job nurturing top level forwards and the results show.

But it's nothing like Blake Wheeler. He never played here. His use of the loophole to not play in Phoenix has nothing to do with nurturing top level forwards.

Other than Turris, there are very few examples of young Coyotes forwards who went on to be stars elsewhere, and would have been here had they just been given a chance.

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01-14-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Polakis View Post
Other than Turris, there are very few examples of young Coyotes forwards who went on to be stars elsewhere, and would have been here had they just been given a chance.
The ONLY example I can remember over the past 15 years is Danny Briere. But even in that scenario, we need to remember the guy was WAIVED and had no takers. We had to kick him out to the curb in order for him to change his game.

Point being, if anything our lack of in-house offensive talent can be attributed to poor drafting, poor asset management and poor development in lower leagues, but this whole 'young forwards don't get a sniff at the NHL level' trend is a bit of a red herring IMO.

I am SURE that had Turris not been such a little ***** about his contract, had we been able to keep him all the way through RFA years as we were SUPPOSED to, he would have been a good player for us. I have no doubt about it, and if you remember, neither did Maloney or Tippett. And the same goes for Blake Wheeler.

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01-14-2014, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Polakis View Post
But it's nothing like Blake Wheeler. He never played here. His use of the loophole to not play in Phoenix has nothing to do with nurturing top level forwards.

Other than Turris, there are very few examples of young Coyotes forwards who went on to be stars elsewhere, and would have been here had they just been given a chance.
Wheeler not playing here is purely mismanagment. You think if they would have vetted the draft pick better they would not have know that?

Turris was a botched job. A rush job. Trading from a view point of weakness will kill you every time. They got essentially nothing for a guy drafted right behind Patrick Kane.

Peter Muller's career went backwards with a severe concussion. Who knows what would have happened had he stayed here. He was a blue chip prospect.

No matter how you spin it all failures from a management point of view. You think you need a sampling size larger to draw a conclussion? Top end blue chip forwards dont grow on trees. It's been a miserable failure here and the results show it on the ice.

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01-14-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azcanuck View Post
No matter how you spin it all failures from a management point of view. You think you need a sampling size larger to draw a conclussion? Top end blue chip forwards dont grow on trees. It's been a miserable failure here and the results show it on the ice.
I think you missed the point of zz's post. The issue isn't whether the Coyotes management has failed to bring in offense talent over the years, that much is obvious. The issue was how much of that can be put on Tippett directly.


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01-14-2014, 04:10 PM
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Wheeler pulled his move five years after he was drafted. Not only is that plenty of time for someone to change his mind (especially at that age), the entire CBA changed, too. It was an unfortunate blow to this franchise, but I wouldn't blame management for that. Moreover, Mike Barnett was the GM when he was drafted. You really can't pin any of that on Maloney.

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01-14-2014, 04:19 PM
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He's recovered Boedker after Gretzky nearly destroyed him.

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01-14-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sniperhf View Post
the issue isn't whether the coyotes management has failed to bring in offense talent over the years, that much is obvious. The issue was how much of that can be put on tippett directly.
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Originally Posted by phophan View Post
wheeler pulled his move five years after he was drafted. Not only is that plenty of time for someone to change his mind (especially at that age), the entire cba changed, too. It was an unfortunate blow to this franchise, but i wouldn't blame management for that. Moreover, mike barnett was the gm when he was drafted. You really can't pin any of that on maloney.
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he's recovered boedker after gretzky nearly destroyed him.
qft.

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01-14-2014, 04:21 PM
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Wheeler not playing here is purely mismanagment. You think if they would have vetted the draft pick better they would not have know that?
They could have drafted Olesz instead - weak draft. It was a solid pick considering who was picked afterwards!

Quote:
Turris was a botched job. A rush job. Trading from a view point of weakness will kill you every time. They got essentially nothing for a guy drafted right behind Patrick Kane.
I don't get this. He finally earned his minutes and was on the top line during the playoffs and then he held out. Maloney insisted he sign and play if he wanted to get traded. And when he played he floated and was a distraction.

Quote:
Peter Muller's career went backwards with a severe concussion. Who knows what would have happened had he stayed here. He was a blue chip prospect.
He probably would have had a concussion here. That's why they say keep your head up.

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No matter how you spin it all failures from a management point of view. You think you need a sampling size larger to draw a conclusion? Top end blue chip forwards dont grow on trees. It's been a miserable failure here and the results show it on the ice.
Yeah, Boeds and Hanzal are a miserable failure!!! I guess that means that Domi, Samuelsson, Brown, and Lessio will too...

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01-14-2014, 04:31 PM
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I think you missed the point of zz's post. The issue isn't whether the Coyotes management has failed to bring in offense talent over the years, that much is obvious. The issue was how much of that can be put on Tippett directly.
I did miss his point and it is a legit one for discussion.
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Originally Posted by DesertDawg View Post
They could have drafted Olesz instead - weak draft. It was a solid pick considering who was picked afterwards!

I don't get this. He finally earned his minutes and was on the top line during the playoffs and then he held out. Maloney insisted he sign and play if he wanted to get traded. And when he played he floated and was a distraction.

He probably would have had a concussion here. That's why they say keep your head up.


Yeah, Boeds and Hanzal are a miserable failure!!! I guess that means that Domi, Samuelsson, Brown, and Lessio will too...
This is a koolaid drinking fan. Just a load of excuses.

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01-14-2014, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azcanuck View Post
Wheeler not playing here is purely mismanagment. You think if they would have vetted the draft pick better they would not have know that?

Turris was a botched job. A rush job. Trading from a view point of weakness will kill you every time. They got essentially nothing for a guy drafted right behind Patrick Kane.

Peter Muller's career went backwards with a severe concussion. Who knows what would have happened had he stayed here. He was a blue chip prospect.

No matter how you spin it all failures from a management point of view. You think you need a sampling size larger to draw a conclussion? Top end blue chip forwards dont grow on trees. It's been a miserable failure here and the results show it on the ice.
Actually, we traded Turris for Rundbald and a 2nd round pick. The 2nd rounder was then used with Curtis McElhenney to obtain Antoine Vermette. So we traded Turris and a young goaltender who wasn't going to see a whole lot of time with us for Vermette and Rundblad. I'd say we still got the better end of the deal.

So then, what were we supposed to do with Turris? We've seen how this year has gone so far, and that appears to be without dissension in the locker room. Where do you think the team would be if Turris continued his pouty ways here? We had to part ways and pick up what we could.

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01-14-2014, 04:52 PM
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This is a koolaid drinking fan. Just a load of excuses.
Beats a fat load of ignorance.

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01-14-2014, 04:59 PM
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Beats a fat load of ignorance.
You could say its interchangeable.

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01-14-2014, 05:05 PM
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I did miss his point and it is a legit one for discussion.

This is a koolaid drinking fan. Just a load of excuses.
Could the Coyotes done better, maybe, but lets not forget what has gone on here the last ten years. TGO and friends, bankruptcy set this franchise back years. It is way to earlier to blame the current management.

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01-14-2014, 05:06 PM
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They could have drafted Olesz instead - weak draft. It was a solid pick considering who was picked afterwards!

I don't get this. He finally earned his minutes and was on the top line during the playoffs and then he held out. Maloney insisted he sign and play if he wanted to get traded. And when he played he floated and was a distraction.

He probably would have had a concussion here. That's why they say keep your head up.


Yeah, Boeds and Hanzal are a miserable failure!!! I guess that means that Domi, Samuelsson, Brown, and Lessio will too...
You are correct with everything you said. Good post.

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01-14-2014, 05:30 PM
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I think you have to have talent in order to be developed, and the question should be how many players were talented that Tip didn't develop. I would say that Tip developed Turris well enough or he wouldn't have shown the glimpses here and done pretty well quickly after leaving, so you can't even use that against him.

Boedker and Hanzal don't count because they already had considerable games under their belt by the time Tip came in, and again I don't think you can really count them against him either as they have developed into nice players.

Domi looks to be the key talented player at this point that we would see how well Tip can develop or not. To this point were looking at guys that were projected to be depth players and not surefire top 6 talent but Domi is a sure bet.

I do think that Tip has done well with our defense, but I know that's not in debate right now. It would be nice if we had some depth players that had been developed at the NHL level, but it's not like we have a lot of 3rd or 4th liners across the NHL that were drafted by this team either.

This is not a post to defend Tip, just to put the facts in order. Tip has been on the record a number of times saying the NHL is not a developmental league in his book, he wants NHL players. The truth of the matter is the scouts and management haven't provided much talent to work with at the NHL level in the past 3-4 years that hasn't already proven itself.

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01-14-2014, 06:10 PM
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Currently I've got to give Tippett a pass.

The last few years have been owner-less messes. Tippett played AHL vets over our prospects in a lot of situations that I really didn't like, claiming the NHL wasn't a league to develop players in. But in hindsight, Tippett didn't really know how long he would get to stay in Phoenix, and had to be thinking his winning percentage was a big reason he was still coaching in the league. He had to be thinking more short term.

This year, with an owner, he's given a few of our prospects some decent looks and a couple cups of coffee, even some of the younger ones. If he continues to give guys like Szwarz, Brown, and Lessio playing time over Yip and McMillan, I think we'll be a lot better club in the long run.

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01-14-2014, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Mosby View Post
He's recovered Boedker after Gretzky nearly destroyed him.
Wait, what? We're attributing Boedker's eventual success to how Dave Tippett yanked him around early in his career? That Tippett somehow 'developed' Turris? Revisionist history at its worst. Dave Tippett hasn't developed a player who is an offense first player here in Phoenix. The two that we did have demanded to leave. Now, you can say all you want about the systems they wound up in, and how they acted while they were here, but they went on to more success outside this organization.

That is not something that is sustainable, or good, in any way. Hanzal, Korpi, and Boedker have survived because they came into the league playing a great two way game for their age.

If Domi gets yanked around as much as Boedker (or worse), will you defend his coaching once more?

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01-14-2014, 10:47 PM
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Wait, what? We're attributing Boedker's eventual success to how Dave Tippett yanked him around early in his career? That Tippett somehow 'developed' Turris? Revisionist history at its worst. Dave Tippett hasn't developed a player who is an offense first player here in Phoenix. The two that we did have demanded to leave. Now, you can say all you want about the systems they wound up in, and how they acted while they were here, but they went on to more success outside this organization.

That is not something that is sustainable, or good, in any way. Hanzal, Korpi, and Boedker have survived because they came into the league playing a great two way game for their age.

If Domi gets yanked around as much as Boedker (or worse), will you defend his coaching once more?
Gretzky played Tik, Turris, Hanzel, Mueller, Porter, and Bods, if I recall, all too early. He let them live through their mistakes, and we sucked. This is what Edmonton is doing, if that is what you want....

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