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Time To Right a Fundamental Issue That Has Been Present Since Nov.19 2011

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Old
01-13-2014, 10:07 PM
  #101
Curufinwe
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post


Maybe we could just wrap all our players in bubble wrap while we're at it.
Comparing visors to bubble wrap is asinine and very childish.

I doubt you'd be laughing if it was Simmonds and not Marc Staal who got hit in the eye with a deflected puck last season and his career put at risk. Just in the past week I saw Hartnell's skate catch a guy right on the visor in what would have been a hideous injury on a visorless player. Weber got hit near the eye with a puck already this season and I doubt it'll be the last time.

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Old
01-13-2014, 10:08 PM
  #102
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Seabrook drafted 14th overall
Kronwall drafted 29th overall
Doughty drafted 2nd overall
Subban drafted 43rd overall
Karlsson drafted 15th overall
Keith drafted 54th overall
Pietrangelo drafted 5th overall
Weber drafted 49th overall
Suter drafted 7th overall
Ekman-Larsson drafted 6th overall
McDouagh drafted 12th overall

There is no certainty when picking defenseman, and if you think about the number of defenseman selected in the first three rounds of the NHL draft and then think about how many have turned out to be a top pairing defenseman and it is obvious that the earlier picks in the draft tend to be more successful more often, which is expected. But there are tons of defenseman who will never crack a top 4, who were highly regarded prospects.

It depends, if you are content drafting many defenseman over the course of a couple years in the hope that 1 will become a franchise defenseman you may come up empty handed. Trading assets for a top prospect like Jones and Ekblad could be just as dangerous even though the chance they develop into superstars is much greater.

If you are okay with being patient then not going after the Ekblads of the NHL world would see smart, but if you are in the mood for a change and not willing to wait, then you do go after those prospects. And with Ed Snider and Homer behind the helm, I think they are not in a waiting mood. I would be okay either way, as long as it does not impact our long term future in a negative way, e.g. trading our first rounder for a UFA in a playoff run, in which our chances of making it more than two rounds is extremely slim.But that is just my opinion.

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01-13-2014, 10:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Doubtful, Nashville was very very high on Jones & were all giddy when he fell in their lap.
Jones, Suter, Weber... how does Nashville always end up with these guys... lol.

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Old
01-13-2014, 10:16 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Comparing visors to bubble wrap is asinine and very childish.

I doubt you'd be laughing if it was Simmonds and not Marc Staal who got hit in the eye with a deflected puck last season and his career put at risk. Just in the past week I saw Hartnell's skate catch a guy right on the visor in what would have been a hideous injury on a visorless player. Weber got hit near the eye with a puck already this season and I doubt it'll be the last time.
I wouldn't not trade for a guy because of his choice of equipment.

They're big boys who can make up their own decisions. I have zero problem if player decides not to wear a visor because it's HIS choice to do so.

He could also take a jolt to the head with a helmet on (which is more frequent) & never play again. You run the risks of getting hurt all the time in a contact sport.

Simmonds did get hit with a puck (not that it would have mattered if he was wearing one or not because it hit his grill) & still doesn't wear one till this day. If he's fine with that than so am I.


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01-13-2014, 10:20 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Seabrook drafted 14th overall
Kronwall drafted 29th overall
Doughty drafted 2nd overall
Subban drafted 43rd overall
Karlsson drafted 15th overall
Keith drafted 54th overall
Pietrangelo drafted 5th overall
Weber drafted 49th overall
Suter drafted 7th overall
Ekman-Larsson drafted 6th overall
McDouagh drafted 12th overall
Just off the top of my head you're missing Chara (third round).

This topic has been brought up many times & this article basically sums it up & list all the draft picks of current players who basically established themselves as an nhl player. It's from last year at the beginning of the year so you could give or take a few guys on the list.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=51845


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01-13-2014, 10:35 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Just off the top of my head you're missing Chara (third round).

This topic has been brought up many times & this article basically sums it up & list all the draft picks of current players who basically established themselves as an nhl player. It's from last year at the beginning of the year so you could give or take a few guys on the list.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=51845
And Timonen: 250th overall. 10th round.

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01-13-2014, 10:39 PM
  #107
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And Timonen: 250th overall. 10th round.
Yeah I just grazed through his post but now seeing that it's top paring defensemen & not just #1 defensemen it even opens up the door for more defenseman leaving his list pretty cherry picked.

I'm not crazy about them but guys like Kris Letang (3rd round), Keith Yandle (4th round), or Dustin Byfuglein (8th round) can fit the bill as top pairing defenders.

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01-13-2014, 10:39 PM
  #108
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I dont think I would give up a single one of our top forwards.

Coots, Schenn, Laughton, Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Read...these are incredible players, they are young and show a lot of promise. I want Weber on this team so freaking bad....but not at the expense of one of our forwards.

We are so impatient and it always bites us in the ass. I dont want to tank it...its not our way. Especially with the cap going up and we have cap space.

I want to be patient and hold on to all those guys and let our young D prospects develop. Someone said something along these lines earlier in the past and it was well said.

I hate our D....If we can grab a couple of offensive guys somehow with Hartnell, Timmonen etc... go for it, they dont have to be #1's but we cant have any more 5/6 guys either.

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01-13-2014, 11:02 PM
  #109
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So basically you're saying you think it's worth it to seriously deplete our forwards to get Weber because he's the main piece the team needs to be a contender? Then how about explaining why Nashville doesn't contend when they have Weber and they had Suter too? Because they team was unbalanced, like ours would be. Most teams are either strong offensively or strong defensively, the only way you get strong at both is by drafting good players on both sides. Our best chance at being an elite contender is if one of our Dmen prospects turn out better than expected, they all do very well and the balance of a bunch of strong players make up for not having a clear #1, or that we draft someone in the future who's going to make a big difference. Clearly trading for Weber or another #1 D isn't worth it considering what it would take to get them, otherwise we would have one already

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01-13-2014, 11:18 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I forget where I saw it (maybe the NHL Network) but they were floored when he was available at #4.
I was floored when he was available at #4. I still don't know why Tampa didn't pick him. Hedman-Jones would've been a sick combo.

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01-14-2014, 06:46 AM
  #111
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And Timonen: 250th overall. 10th round.
Also add Hamhuis, Franson, and Josi. If Nashville could ever draft an impact forward (that isn't a headcase), they would be the best drafting team in the league.

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01-14-2014, 07:05 AM
  #112
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No they don't. The risk is too high- the teams grow their own franchise players. That's the only way for the teams to have franchise players and keep their prospects too.

I n cap era, paraphrasing W. Churchill,- You can't trade your way into prosperity.
What if you draft that player and he goes down with a career ending head injury? Or doesn't play the same afterwards and never reaches his potential? These types of risks are always going to happen no matter what. When a play of Shea Weber's caliber become available, you must try to get him. You build your team around a #1 center, and #1 defender. In the short run, you might be a little hurt for offense if you trade away two top 9 players for him, but you can replace from within(Laughton) and try through free agency. I am not even saying he will be available, just saying you have to try if he does become available.

These types of guys will become available every once in a while, and the price isn't always as steep as we think. Look at the Pronger trade, we gave Lupul, Sbisa, 2 first rounders... Lupul isn't on the team anymore and Sbisa is having a tough time in Anaheim. John Moore and Etem were the two first rounders if I am not mistaken, they have yet to amount to anything special. Pronger took us to the cup, and a freak injury put us where we are now. Yep, I know it could happen again right, but the chances are very small of something of that caliber to happen again. I believe the trade for Weber for be something like B Schenn, L Schenn, 2 first(Sub Grossmann) for L Schenn if they want. We would still hold all of our young defense prospects. Even if they demanded one, I would still feel comfortable giving one up, but keeping another asset.

There is so much that could go wrong, but why can't we concentrate on what could actually go right?

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01-14-2014, 07:23 AM
  #113
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^^ Pronger and Weber aren't at the same point of their careers or respective contracts. That's the big difference.

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01-14-2014, 07:25 AM
  #114
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What if you draft that player and he goes down with a career ending head injury? Or doesn't play the same afterwards and never reaches his potential? These types of risks are always going to happen no matter what. When a play of Shea Weber's caliber become available, you must try to get him. You build your team around a #1 center, and #1 defender. In the short run, you might be a little hurt for offense if you trade away two top 9 players for him, but you can replace from within(Laughton) and try through free agency. I am not even saying he will be available, just saying you have to try if he does become available.

These types of guys will become available every once in a while, and the price isn't always as steep as we think. Look at the Pronger trade, we gave Lupul, Sbisa, 2 first rounders... Lupul isn't on the team anymore and Sbisa is having a tough time in Anaheim. John Moore and Etem were the two first rounders if I am not mistaken, they have yet to amount to anything special. Pronger took us to the cup, and a freak injury put us where we are now. Yep, I know it could happen again right, but the chances are very small of something of that caliber to happen again. I believe the trade for Weber for be something like B Schenn, L Schenn, 2 first(Sub Grossmann) for L Schenn if they want. We would still hold all of our young defense prospects. Even if they demanded one, I would still feel comfortable giving one up, but keeping another asset.

There is so much that could go wrong, but why can't we concentrate on what could actually go right?
in response to bolded: That definitely may and does happen. In that case the team has lost nothing but 1 draft pick. You keep all of your other assets.

You right about team building. But except, I believe, for Boston with Chara, all other elite teams have drafted/grown their own talent.
The problem with trading for this caliber of players is that a team gives up a lot of assets and is forced to overpay to FA to fill the void. It's not a successful strategy in the cap era.

I am, certainly, not opposed to trade for # 1 D, but the price must be right. Otherwise, you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Also, I value Shea and would be happy to have him on the team, I am not sure he is what Pronger was for this team.

I am afraid, you and I will agree to disagree on this issue.

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01-14-2014, 07:29 AM
  #115
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^^ Pronger and Weber aren't at the same point of their careers or respective contracts. That's the big difference.
You're right but one can argue even at 34 when the Flyers got Pronger he was still the best defender in the league and at a level Weber isn't at. Weber will never be on par with Pronger, but if they want us to include other assets because of his age, it depends on what it is. I am all in favor of improving this team, and that doesn't mean just Weber. It just comes down to if the price is right, if it isn't and we feel like it would hurt our organization more than help, you just simply walk away.

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01-14-2014, 07:29 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I wouldn't not trade for a guy because of his choice of equipment.

They're big boys who can make up their own decisions. I have zero problem if player decides not to wear a visor because it's HIS choice to do so.
If you gut the team and trade for a guy with a massive contract like Weber and he got hurt like Pronger did it would be a franchise crushing disaster. It's not worth the risk, and thankfully Simmonds is the only important player on the team who still doesn't wear a visor.

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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
So basically you're saying you think it's worth it to seriously deplete our forwards to get Weber because he's the main piece the team needs to be a contender? Then how about explaining why Nashville doesn't contend when they have Weber and they had Suter too? Because they team was unbalanced, like ours would be.
Bingo.

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01-14-2014, 07:33 AM
  #117
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The fundamental issue on this team is that WE CAN'T DRAFT! The players we do draft only stick around for a few years before we give up on them and ship them out.

When this happens, you sign 35+ players like Lecavalier/Streit to 5 million dollar contracts. Lecavalier = done. Straight up, it should be Giroux, Schenn, and Couturier down the middle. Lecavalier is not a winger, period. Let the young guys get the playing time. Also, instead of signing Streit it would've allowed Gustafsson / Lauridsen / etc to get more playing time.

It all comes down to Snyder's inability to accept the fact that the team just "isn't good". Let the team be what they are, suck. Accept the results and draft accordingly. Stop reaching for these blockbuster trades and garbage FA signings.

I can't even think of the last defensemen we drafted that is actually a top-4 and still on the team. Also, most of the forwards are just...gone. Let's take a quick look:

Richards/Carter = Gone
JVR = Gone
Downie (1st rnd) - Gone and back again
2010/2009 drafts = Totally irrelevant
Sbisa = Gone
Kevin Marshall - 2nd round = bust
Three 2nd rounders in 06' = ALL busts (Andreas Nodl, Mike Ratchuk, Denis Bodrov)
Bartulis (3rd round) = Gone
2004 = One of the worst drafts EVER
Joni Pitkanen = Gone
Jeff Woywitka WHO???
Sharp = Gone
Justin Williams = GONE
Maxime Ouellet WHO???

----------

I'm not saying that every team drafts to 100% accuracy, but my goodness the Flyers are TERRIBLE at drafting. I'm not sure who is/has been in charge of this process, but they need to GO.

Granted, there have been some good FA signings here and there (Briere and Roenick come to mind) but never enough to surpass the inevitable shortcomings of the team. It's been way too long since we've had a homegrown franchise defensemen/goalie.

If the Flyers are out of this thing come trade deadline, we need to sell hard. Trade away Timonen to a contender. Consider moving Hartnell/Coburn/Mez. Accept the fact that we are NOT winning the cup this year. It's not happening with this team.

If you look at the teams that are winning championships, they are teams that have drafted well. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Boston. Granted, some of those teams "sucked" there way into #1 overall picks, but it is what it is. Crosby/Malkin are generational talents. Toews and Kane are generational talents. What is the Flyers answer to these guys?

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01-14-2014, 07:53 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by R3M1N1SC3 View Post
The fundamental issue on this team is that WE CAN'T DRAFT! The players we do draft only stick around for a few years before we give up on them and ship them out.

When this happens, you sign 35+ players like Lecavalier/Streit to 5 million dollar contracts. Lecavalier = done. Straight up, it should be Giroux, Schenn, and Couturier down the middle. Lecavalier is not a winger, period. Let the young guys get the playing time. Also, instead of signing Streit it would've allowed Gustafsson / Lauridsen / etc to get more playing time.

It all comes down to Snyder's inability to accept the fact that the team just "isn't good". Let the team be what they are, suck. Accept the results and draft accordingly. Stop reaching for these blockbuster trades and garbage FA signings.

I can't even think of the last defensemen we drafted that is actually a top-4 and still on the team. Also, most of the forwards are just...gone. Let's take a quick look:

Richards/Carter = Gone
JVR = Gone
Downie (1st rnd) - Gone and back again
2010/2009 drafts = Totally irrelevant
Sbisa = Gone
Kevin Marshall - 2nd round = bust
Three 2nd rounders in 06' = ALL busts (Andreas Nodl, Mike Ratchuk, Denis Bodrov)
Bartulis (3rd round) = Gone
2004 = One of the worst drafts EVER
Joni Pitkanen = Gone
Jeff Woywitka WHO???
Sharp = Gone
Justin Williams = GONE
Maxime Ouellet WHO???

----------

I'm not saying that every team drafts to 100% accuracy, but my goodness the Flyers are TERRIBLE at drafting. I'm not sure who is/has been in charge of this process, but they need to GO.

Granted, there have been some good FA signings here and there (Briere and Roenick come to mind) but never enough to surpass the inevitable shortcomings of the team. It's been way too long since we've had a homegrown franchise defensemen/goalie.

If the Flyers are out of this thing come trade deadline, we need to sell hard. Trade away Timonen to a contender. Consider moving Hartnell/Coburn/Mez. Accept the fact that we are NOT winning the cup this year. It's not happening with this team.

If you look at the teams that are winning championships, they are teams that have drafted well. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Boston. Granted, some of those teams "sucked" there way into #1 overall picks, but it is what it is. Crosby/Malkin are generational talents. Toews and Kane are generational talents. What is the Flyers answer to these guys?
The Flyers historically are one of the better drafting teams over the last dozen or so years (maybe longer) especially in the 1st.

Their philosophy is to stay competitive, so they trade young players for established players more often than others, is it a fault? That's an opinion question. They haven't won a cup in almost 40 years and while you can say that's the reason, you can also say they've been in the playoffs 95% of the time over the last 20 years, so is their way completely wrong either?

I'm in the camp of holding off, the Flyers look like they have some really solid talent coming on the blueline over the next 2-3 years, any acquisition of a big dman now will cost some of those players. hold the line.

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01-14-2014, 07:54 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by R3M1N1SC3 View Post
The fundamental issue on this team is that WE CAN'T DRAFT! The players we do draft only stick around for a few years before we give up on them and ship them out.

When this happens, you sign 35+ players like Lecavalier/Streit to 5 million dollar contracts. Lecavalier = done. Straight up, it should be Giroux, Schenn, and Couturier down the middle. Lecavalier is not a winger, period. Let the young guys get the playing time. Also, instead of signing Streit it would've allowed Gustafsson / Lauridsen / etc to get more playing time.

It all comes down to Snyder's inability to accept the fact that the team just "isn't good". Let the team be what they are, suck. Accept the results and draft accordingly. Stop reaching for these blockbuster trades and garbage FA signings.

I can't even think of the last defensemen we drafted that is actually a top-4 and still on the team. Also, most of the forwards are just...gone. Let's take a quick look:

Richards/Carter = Gone
JVR = Gone
Downie (1st rnd) - Gone and back again
2010/2009 drafts = Totally irrelevant
Sbisa = Gone
Kevin Marshall - 2nd round = bust
Three 2nd rounders in 06' = ALL busts (Andreas Nodl, Mike Ratchuk, Denis Bodrov)
Bartulis (3rd round) = Gone
2004 = One of the worst drafts EVER
Joni Pitkanen = Gone
Jeff Woywitka WHO???
Sharp = Gone
Justin Williams = GONE
Maxime Ouellet WHO???

----------

I'm not saying that every team drafts to 100% accuracy, but my goodness the Flyers are TERRIBLE at drafting. I'm not sure who is/has been in charge of this process, but they need to GO.

Granted, there have been some good FA signings here and there (Briere and Roenick come to mind) but never enough to surpass the inevitable shortcomings of the team. It's been way too long since we've had a homegrown franchise defensemen/goalie.

If the Flyers are out of this thing come trade deadline, we need to sell hard. Trade away Timonen to a contender. Consider moving Hartnell/Coburn/Mez. Accept the fact that we are NOT winning the cup this year. It's not happening with this team.

If you look at the teams that are winning championships, they are teams that have drafted well. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Boston. Granted, some of those teams "sucked" there way into #1 overall picks, but it is what it is. Crosby/Malkin are generational talents. Toews and Kane are generational talents. What is the Flyers answer to these guys?
Where have you been? The Flyers are already in the middle of building through the draft. The lack of talent that you see now is a direct result of bleeding picks away when they tried to make their run from 2009-2011. Since then, Homer's taken a more conservative approach to his draft picks.

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01-14-2014, 08:19 AM
  #120
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The Flyers are pretty good at drafting in the %'s are looked at, especially in the first 3 rounds.

The problem is that they have traded so many picks and young players. But then again they have been consistently in the playoffs. But I think they have now realised that post lockout a good team cannot be built as easily as before without drafting and maintaining picks.

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01-14-2014, 08:24 AM
  #121
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Their philosophy is to stay competitive
That right there can be a problem. I'm not complaining about making the playoffs every year, but when it yields no results then obviously the philosophy in the building of the team has failed on many levels.

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01-14-2014, 08:31 AM
  #122
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The Flyers are pretty good at drafting in the %'s are looked at, especially in the first 3 rounds.
OK, outside of Giroux, Carter, and Richards the 1st rounders are either

A) Unknowns as of right now
B) Miserably failed
C) Mediocre at best

The 2nd and 3rd rounders are absolutely non-existent. If you don't believe me, you can check the draft history.

The problem, imo, is that most teams will at least hit on a couple players every year in the draft. Whether they are guys for the AHL or NHL will always remain to be seen, BUT - the Flyers have had multiple drafts which you can completely just "thow away". Meaning, absolutely nobody panned out or amounted to anything really.

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01-14-2014, 08:44 AM
  #123
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That right there can be a problem. I'm not complaining about making the playoffs every year, but when it yields no results then obviously the philosophy in the building of the team has failed on many levels.
You can argue that, but in hockey where making the playoffs basically turns you into a 50/50 shot at winning, that's a huge deal.

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01-14-2014, 08:45 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by R3M1N1SC3 View Post
OK, outside of Giroux, Carter, and Richards the 1st rounders are either

A) Unknowns as of right now
B) Miserably failed
C) Mediocre at best

The 2nd and 3rd rounders are absolutely non-existent. If you don't believe me, you can check the draft history.

The problem, imo, is that most teams will at least hit on a couple players every year in the draft. Whether they are guys for the AHL or NHL will always remain to be seen, BUT - the Flyers have had multiple drafts which you can completely just "thow away". Meaning, absolutely nobody panned out or amounted to anything really.
There are tons of stats that prove you wrong on the 2nd/3rd rounders

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01-14-2014, 08:49 AM
  #125
sa cyred
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People got to remember that Weber, Letang, Chara, Keith etc etc were not considered number 1 defenders at the ages of 18-20. Even after there were some major growing pains with them. I won't sit here and say our trio of defender prospects (Ghost, Morin, and Hagg) are going to come and become franchise players but I will say that most 1-2 defenders aren't looked at being top guys at a young age.

Ghost this season is being considered one of the best players in college hockey at 20 yrs old. He skates with the best of them, has one of the best slapshots in college hockey and maybe even one of the best prospect slapshots out there, and isn't afraid to get physical. His defensive play also has tremendously increased. His size and turnover problems can be fixed.

Morin is the giant defender who if be puts it all together could be a monster defender. He skates extremely well for a big man and is extremely smart. He has got to work on many things including how to deal with smaller skilled forwards. They get around him way to easily.

Hagg is that super calm presence defender who can play all situations. His first pass is top notch. I mean honestly he barely ever turns the puck over. He also skates like Coburn does. Extremely fluent. His problem still is consistency. He is though playing as a 18 yr old in probably the 3rd best league in the world. Got to be patient.

If we clam down and grow defenders, it will only be a matter of time before one comes up

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