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Old
01-26-2007, 06:20 AM
  #26
Anthony Mauro
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Originally Posted by KingHenrik35 View Post
Like some have said, actions speak louder than words. Dont get me wrong, i'm happy he said what he said but talk is cheap, show it on the ice.
agreed. what's telling is Jagr has learned how to lie like his master until he shows it on the ice.

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01-26-2007, 08:24 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
If Shanny made these comments this thread would be 8 pages and a statue would be errected outside MSG...

To be honest i could care less what these guys say to the media..What else is Jagr going to say? "I think we suck and I'm the captain of a suck team!"

Everybody involved with this team needs to understand that actions speak louder then words...

From Sather to Maloney to Renney to Jagr to Adam Hall...

It's put up or shut up time...

Oh yeah...two cliches in one post...
i 100% agree with you on this its about time he puts his money where his mouth is and lead by example.

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01-26-2007, 09:05 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by towely View Post
i 100% agree with you on this its about time he puts his money where his mouth is and lead by example.
How about if he stops taking lazy penalties, and also stops with the blind sideways passes in the neutral zone that result in odd-man rushes for the other team.

Oh, and not backing out of a shoot out would also be a good step.

Until he leads by example, his words mean nothing.

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01-26-2007, 09:16 AM
  #29
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We've heard this from Jags before. He needs to show it by not just playing well offensively, but setting an example as captain, the highest paid player in the league and an older guy, by getting back on defense and doing the little things right to win games. If the other 20 guys on the team see Jagr doing it, there's absolutely no excuse for them not to play as hard as they can for the team and city. That's what captains like Jagr do, they must lead by example because we all know we're not going to see him giving an emotionally laced speech in the locker room before the game (atleast in english haha)

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01-26-2007, 10:55 AM
  #30
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Big deal.

Get on the ice and prove it you big women's blouse.


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01-26-2007, 11:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
If Shanny made these comments this thread would be 8 pages and a statue would be errected outside MSG...
Having the benefit of having been there with my recorder capturing their every word, let me add some context to what Jagr and Renney said yesterday and what Shanahan said after the Atlanta game:

Jagr did not come out to make a statement yesterday. He didn't want to come out to talk to us at all, not because he didn't want to talk, but because he was in the middle of working out with Reg Grant to strengthen his shoulder -- and this after one of the more rigorous 90-minute practices I have seen. (He was one of only two players on the ice on Wednesday when the team was on all-star break, dragging Prucha out there with him to practice shooting.) What he came out to talk about was his shoulder. Asked about the remainder of the season, he said what he has been reported to say -- not as a statement to the press or to the fans or to his team but as a statement of the standards he is holding himself to. He knows he has not delivered on the ice, he is his own worst critic, and he knows that what he does on the ice the rest of the way is what counts.

Some of his best comments came after I asked him to look beyond himself and tell us what he thinks the team as a whole needs to do to turn their season around (I wanted him to talk about the power play -- I was the one asking everyone about the power play after the Atlanta game because I thought that was the story of the game and maybe the Ranger season so far). But he refused to talk about what the rest of the team needs to do -- he put all the responsibility for the teams' success or lack thereof squarely on his own shoulders. If he fails to deliver, it's on him, not on anyone else.

Contrast this to Shanahan, who indeed almost had a statue erected for his comments after the Atlanta game, comments in which he spoke exclusively of what everyone else on the team needed to do and never once alluded to his own lack of goal scoring, on the power play or otherwise (in fact, making excuses for himself because of his shifting linemates). Don't get me wrong, I think Shanny is a sincere guy with his heart in the right place who wants to win worse than most anyone else, and his comments were spot on, no question about that -- but I have more respect for Jagr assuming sole accountability for his own role as the team's offensive leader and captain.

As for Renney's comments about the decision making process, his phrase about leaving the room was not meant to be taken literally -- they don't say, "Tom, please leave so that we can make a decision without you participating." What he meant is that he as a coach can ask for what he thinks he needs, and he can participate in the evaluation process and make suggestions, but that the final decision was always going to belong to the GM. He emphasized that he was happy about his level of participation in the process. And really, his situation is no different than any coach -- the GM makes the final personnel decisions.

If there was anything to be read into his comments, taken in concert with some past comments he has made on the subject, it is that he has to work with what he is given as best he can -- he is clearly unhappy with some of what he has been given, and has asked for help in some areas. But the CBA limits what the managers can do (and here is where you can add your own ideas about their other limitations), and it's ultimately up to the managers to make the final decisions on his requests and their own ideas of how to shape the team.

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01-26-2007, 12:00 PM
  #32
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Thanks for the clarification Dubi. Great stuff.

Your point about Jags looking at himself for responsibility and accountability vs. shannahan looking at others is very interesting. We need to get these two players on the same page ASAP

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01-26-2007, 12:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dubi View Post
As for Renney's comments about the decision making process, his phrase about leaving the room was not meant to be taken literally -- they don't say, "Tom, please leave so that we can make a decision without you participating." What he meant is that he as a coach can ask for what he thinks he needs, and he can participate in the evaluation process and make suggestions, but that the final decision was always going to belong to the GM. He emphasized that he was happy about his level of participation in the process. And really, his situation is no different than any coach -- the GM makes the final personnel decisions.
Thanks for clearing that up D. It's exactly what I thought, I can't believe how misconstrued some of these quotes get.

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01-26-2007, 12:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dubi View Post
Having the benefit of having been there with my recorder capturing their every word, let me add some context to what Jagr and Renney said yesterday and what Shanahan said after the Atlanta game:

Jagr did not come out to make a statement yesterday. He didn't want to come out to talk to us at all, not because he didn't want to talk, but because he was in the middle of working out with Reg Grant to strengthen his shoulder -- and this after one of the more rigorous 90-minute practices I have seen. (He was one of only two players on the ice on Wednesday when the team was on all-star break, dragging Prucha out there with him to practice shooting.) What he came out to talk about was his shoulder. Asked about the remainder of the season, he said what he has been reported to say -- not as a statement to the press or to the fans or to his team but as a statement of the standards he is holding himself to. He knows he has not delivered on the ice, he is his own worst critic, and he knows that what he does on the ice the rest of the way is what counts.

Some of his best comments came after I asked him to look beyond himself and tell us what he thinks the team as a whole needs to do to turn their season around (I wanted him to talk about the power play -- I was the one asking everyone about the power play after the Atlanta game because I thought that was the story of the game and maybe the Ranger season so far). But he refused to talk about what the rest of the team needs to do -- he put all the responsibility for the teams' success or lack thereof squarely on his own shoulders. If he fails to deliver, it's on him, not on anyone else.

Contrast this to Shanahan, who indeed almost had a statue erected for his comments after the Atlanta game, comments in which he spoke exclusively of what everyone else on the team needed to do and never once alluded to his own lack of goal scoring, on the power play or otherwise (in fact, making excuses for himself because of his shifting linemates). Don't get me wrong, I think Shanny is a sincere guy with his heart in the right place who wants to win worse than most anyone else, and his comments were spot on, no question about that -- but I have more respect for Jagr assuming sole accountability for his own role as the team's offensive leader and captain.

As for Renney's comments about the decision making process, his phrase about leaving the room was not meant to be taken literally -- they don't say, "Tom, please leave so that we can make a decision without you participating." What he meant is that he as a coach can ask for what he thinks he needs, and he can participate in the evaluation process and make suggestions, but that the final decision was always going to belong to the GM. He emphasized that he was happy about his level of participation in the process. And really, his situation is no different than any coach -- the GM makes the final personnel decisions.

If there was anything to be read into his comments, taken in concert with some past comments he has made on the subject, it is that he has to work with what he is given as best he can -- he is clearly unhappy with some of what he has been given, and has asked for help in some areas. But the CBA limits what the managers can do (and here is where you can add your own ideas about their other limitations), and it's ultimately up to the managers to make the final decisions on his requests and their own ideas of how to shape the team.
Awesome insight Dubi, thanks!

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01-26-2007, 12:20 PM
  #35
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I wont quote your comments again Dubi, but its nice to have a little more insite into what is going on.

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01-26-2007, 12:22 PM
  #36
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Oh, and not backing out of a shoot out would also be a good step.

Until he leads by example, his words mean nothing.









exactly right. let's see 25 points over the next 15 games oh fearless leader..

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01-26-2007, 12:23 PM
  #37
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It's a team game Dubi...

I think both Shanny's and Jagr's comments were equally as appropriate. When Shanny says the team needs to play better, he recognizes that he's a part of the team, and never acts as though he's above the team and many leaders do not use the 'I' term. Nothing wrong with it, but you go into it together, work as a group, and take criticism as a group. Jagr's not the guy who leads by saying the right things at the right times or getting his players going. He's a guy who leads on the ice. He's somewhat of a selfish player, and I don't mean that negatively, because he wants to do his best, and realizes that if he plays his best, the team will be the beneficiary. The two have different approaches.

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01-26-2007, 12:28 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubi View Post
Having the benefit of having been there with my recorder capturing their every word, let me add some context to what Jagr and Renney said yesterday and what Shanahan said after the Atlanta game:

Jagr did not come out to make a statement yesterday. He didn't want to come out to talk to us at all, not because he didn't want to talk, but because he was in the middle of working out with Reg Grant to strengthen his shoulder -- and this after one of the more rigorous 90-minute practices I have seen. (He was one of only two players on the ice on Wednesday when the team was on all-star break, dragging Prucha out there with him to practice shooting.) What he came out to talk about was his shoulder. Asked about the remainder of the season, he said what he has been reported to say -- not as a statement to the press or to the fans or to his team but as a statement of the standards he is holding himself to. He knows he has not delivered on the ice, he is his own worst critic, and he knows that what he does on the ice the rest of the way is what counts.

Some of his best comments came after I asked him to look beyond himself and tell us what he thinks the team as a whole needs to do to turn their season around (I wanted him to talk about the power play -- I was the one asking everyone about the power play after the Atlanta game because I thought that was the story of the game and maybe the Ranger season so far). But he refused to talk about what the rest of the team needs to do -- he put all the responsibility for the teams' success or lack thereof squarely on his own shoulders. If he fails to deliver, it's on him, not on anyone else.

Contrast this to Shanahan, who indeed almost had a statue erected for his comments after the Atlanta game, comments in which he spoke exclusively of what everyone else on the team needed to do and never once alluded to his own lack of goal scoring, on the power play or otherwise (in fact, making excuses for himself because of his shifting linemates). Don't get me wrong, I think Shanny is a sincere guy with his heart in the right place who wants to win worse than most anyone else, and his comments were spot on, no question about that -- but I have more respect for Jagr assuming sole accountability for his own role as the team's offensive leader and captain.

As for Renney's comments about the decision making process, his phrase about leaving the room was not meant to be taken literally -- they don't say, "Tom, please leave so that we can make a decision without you participating." What he meant is that he as a coach can ask for what he thinks he needs, and he can participate in the evaluation process and make suggestions, but that the final decision was always going to belong to the GM. He emphasized that he was happy about his level of participation in the process. And really, his situation is no different than any coach -- the GM makes the final personnel decisions.
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If there was anything to be read into his comments, taken in concert with some past comments he has made on the subject, it is that he has to work with what he is given as best he can -- he is clearly unhappy with some of what he has been given, and has asked for help in some areas. But the CBA limits what the managers can do (and here is where you can add your own ideas about their other limitations), and it's ultimately up to the managers to make the final decisions on his requests and their own ideas of how to shape the team.
now that i've got that out of the way.. i am a little confused by this

are you saying Renney would prefer to have had some of the players down in hartford up with the team and playing at earlier points in the season?.. it's hard for me to believe that because it took him THIS long play pock, and we saw how he handled dawes and callahan.. or does the upper management dictate who plays more than we know or want to think..?

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01-26-2007, 12:43 PM
  #39
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...

I think that there are a lot of things WE DON'T KNOW and will never know because Sather does not want us to know. I'm sure that often times Renney wants to call up someone and Sather says no because that call-up means also waiving or sending down a veteran player sometimes.

Sather is a control freak who wants to do very little yet still keep total control of this team. That won't change any time soon.

The good news is that Girardi was called up and that Rachunek, not Pock, will be the one sitting!

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01-26-2007, 02:21 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
are you saying Renney would prefer to have had some of the players down in hartford up with the team and playing at earlier points in the season?.. it's hard for me to believe that because it took him THIS long play pock, and we saw how he handled dawes and callahan.. or does the upper management dictate who plays more than we know or want to think..?
My comments had to do with overall roster management and not just calling up players from Hartford. Renney seems to have more input into the latter than into trades -- it is obviously not his job to look for players outside the organization, whereas he does have the ability to do as he did last week and go to Hartford, see who's ready, see who he wants, and work with Donny to figure out how to get them. Both Renney and Donny are now saying that some of the kids there are ready or close to ready, reversing the opinion they held up to this point. So far they were able to make room for Girardi by waiving Kaspar. Judging by Renney's comments yesterday, he'd like Donny to find ways to make room for more call-ups (which means cutting current players one way or another).

As for specific players, I have to start out with the caveat that I don't necessarily agree with Renney, but here is what I know -- he believes Pock needs additional work on his defensive play, and he doesn't like the way Immonen plays the game at the NHL level (he's spoken about his foot speed, but there have been hints that Immonen is too intimidated by NHL players). Dawed and Callahan -- that one's easy, they are envisioned as offensive contributors, not checkers, and he'd rather they hone their offensive skills in Hartford until they are needed in New York rather than languish with minimal third or fourth line minutes (again, not that I agree, but that is the sentiment). To sum up, Renney still has high hopes for all of these guys, plus Girardi, except for Immonen, whom he has pretty much given up on -- I'd expect the Rangers to try to move him by the trade deadline if they can.

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01-26-2007, 02:28 PM
  #41
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Do you really think...

Immonen would be moved (or they will actively seek to move him)? That could hurt Hartford a bit because on most nights, he's their best centerman, and considering he's not really high-end, the return may not be very mcuh.

On Callahan - it doesn't seem as though Callahan needs much more honing at the AHL level.

On Dawes - one would've thought the same prior to this season.

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01-26-2007, 03:37 PM
  #42
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I'll believe it when I see it. It sounded good at least.

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01-26-2007, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Middle Managers exist in sports?

I think it's Renneys way of saying he is being shouted down...Although he really doesn't coach like he wants more youth on this team...
And therien lies the paradox. Renney, whatever amount of input he may have, appears to be limited to just that. According the comments, he does not actually have a part in the "final conversation". If his opinion mattered that much, then why does he have to leave the room?

And, I agree on his coaching style. He is good with PR talk, but does not practice what he preaches.

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01-26-2007, 09:34 PM
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Sam is the man. He used to cover Section I HS Hockey a couple of years back but left to follow the PGA. Great guy. Wrote a cover about me when I was in varsity. He deserves the best.

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01-26-2007, 10:59 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Immonen would be moved (or they will actively seek to move him)? That could hurt Hartford a bit because on most nights, he's their best centerman, and considering he's not really high-end, the return may not be very mcuh.

On Callahan - it doesn't seem as though Callahan needs much more honing at the AHL level.

On Dawes - one would've thought the same prior to this season.
At a minimum on the 23 man roster Dawes, Callahan, and Dubinsky are better options then Hall, Orr, and Krog..

In the Flyers game on Saturday Dawes, Callahan and Dubinsky are better options in the lineup then Ward, Hall, and Krog.

This isn't about youth vs vets anymore this is about who are the better players...

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01-26-2007, 11:37 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
At a minimum on the 23 man roster Dawes, Callahan, and Dubinsky are better options then Hall, Orr, and Krog..

In the Flyers game on Saturday Dawes, Callahan and Dubinsky are better options in the lineup then Ward, Hall, and Krog.

This isn't about youth vs vets anymore this is about who are the better players...
Completely agree.

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01-27-2007, 12:13 AM
  #47
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Thanks for the clarification Dubi. Great stuff.

Your point about Jags looking at himself for responsibility and accountability vs. shannahan looking at others is very interesting. We need to get these two players on the same page ASAP
This is why Jaromir Jagr is our captain and Brendan Shanahan is not. Don't get me wrong, Shanny is a great leader in the lockerroom and out on the ice (he's always the first one to stick up for a teammate), but this is the type of attitude a captain should have. The captain of a team SHOULD be taking responsibility for the team's lack of success. Even though it's not completely true (the defense has been piss poor and our team is just not playing great hockey as a whole), someone needs to step up and take responsibility. Sometimes it's better to do what Jagr did and take full responsibility than what Shanny does and tries to explain what players in general aren't doing right.

I have complete faith in Jaromir Jagr's ability to lead this team to the playoffs and beyond. Taking responsibility and bringing the team under his wing is what leadership is all about. Renney can juggle the lines all he wants but as long as Jagr comes through and produces, it'll spark the team. Look at last season...the whole team fed off of Jagr. If we get back to doing that, our team will start to win more games.

Just my two cents

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01-27-2007, 08:00 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
If Shanny made these comments this thread would be 8 pages and a statue would be errected outside MSG...

To be honest i could care less what these guys say to the media..What else is Jagr going to say? "I think we suck and I'm the captain of a suck team!"

Everybody involved with this team needs to understand that actions speak louder then words...

From Sather to Maloney to Renney to Jagr to Adam Hall...

It's put up or shut up time...

Oh yeah...two cliches in one post...
You're missing the point! He didn't have to lay the blame on himself, he could have taken the injury as an excuse and laid it out there but he didn't. clearly, he feels he has to step up for the teams fortunes to turn around. He also ADMITS his play has been subpar this season. ALOT of pro athletes don,t have that kind of truthfullness in them, right off the top of my head I'll give you a Huge example Randy Johnson pitching to a 5 something era and saying he did his job and kept the Yankees in the game! That is a totally gutless comment and shows an athlete clearly clueless about the real world.

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01-27-2007, 08:05 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by JamesG1221 View Post
Oh, and not backing out of a shoot out would also be a good step.

Until he leads by example, his words mean nothing.









exactly right. let's see 25 points over the next 15 games oh fearless leader..
Would you have rathered he selfishly went out there and dribbled the puck in front of the goaltender for an easy stop just because he's Jaromir Jagr! Think man....the easy thing is to be selfish and take a shot at probably half strength. Who's gonna know but you!

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01-27-2007, 09:23 AM
  #50
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It's good to hear those good words from our deserving captain.

Let's win this game today now!

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