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What were the main complaints about Mason Raymond in VAN?

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Old
01-13-2014, 07:18 PM
  #101
CanuckLuck
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He hasn't defined his role. He's either a lame 2nd line scorer or an under-sized 3rd line checker. It makes it very difficult for him to find a contract..as we all saw.

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01-13-2014, 07:34 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
And then skates into trouble and loses the puck on the turnover.
That's not how the play I saw ended, but he may have done it twice.

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01-13-2014, 08:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
That's not how the play I saw ended, but he may have done it twice.
I think mine was a cumulative view.

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01-14-2014, 02:50 AM
  #104
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The complaints ranged from the realistic to the ridiculous.

Him being a perimeter player, falling down and taking weak outside shots that had just about no chance of going in were the ones that made sense.

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01-14-2014, 03:15 AM
  #105
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That he would suck in a game like that one against the Kings tonight.

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01-14-2014, 03:45 AM
  #106
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by TheWanderer View Post
Not necessarily saying offensive production, but more just his offensive decision making so that he wasn't an idiot whenever he entered the zone. That can be coached.
Sorry but not everything can be "coached". Raymond is who he is. A fast skater with a good shot.

Hes not very smart in terms of hockey sense and hes not physical in terms of protecting the puck, going into the dirty areas.

These are things that cant be just "taught". If they were everyone would be a Crosby.

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01-14-2014, 03:54 AM
  #107
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Didn't go to the net enough and wasn't strong on his feet, was what a lot of people said. More than anything he had a bad injury and never really got his game back, seemed like he didn't have the same strength to his game to get to where he needed to be.

I figure that if the Canucks had been able to re-sign him for what the Leafs ended up getting him for, they would have done that pretty quick, it was a surprise to me how long he went unsigned for, he has a real good skill set and looks to be fully recovered now from that back injury.

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01-14-2014, 10:57 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
He fell down too much, sometimes made mistakes by trying to body check a bigger player who just proceeded to skate by him, and he didn't always score.
He did that once...........get over yourself.

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01-14-2014, 11:14 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
on top of everything else posted above, he also lacked the hockey sense to pass the puck effectively. which of course led to him skating the puck toward the side boards or corner when angled there by defenders, then falling over.
For a guy who couldn't pass the puck, he laid on more chances than anyone not named Sedin when he was fit

Basically his biggest problem is he avoids contact.

I have watched him in T and he has hardly fallen down at all........no more than some others thats for sure.

He suffered more than one serious injury and it was obvious he was getting over his (latest one) spine fracture prior to his last Canucks season.

However after a great start AV started playing him with low IQ talentless players who often couldn't pass or anticipate a pass.

He has to be played in the 1st or 2nd line imo to get the best out of him. His defence was better in Vancouver than it appears in T, I'm not sure why that is.

In summing up despite what some of the clueless playstation jockeys on CDC would have us believe we have missed Raymond's sniping, speed and hockey IQ. The Canucks would have difficulty putting it in an empty net at present, meanwhile Raymond has 12 goals and 28 points at the halfway stage.........playing for the Leafs. Not bad for $1M

Way to go Gillis!

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01-14-2014, 11:25 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Wolfhard View Post
Plain and simple, Raymond and Grabner were both incomplete players who need to be in the top 6, or even top 3, to excel at their games. Weaker teams can play them there and get decent production, while overlooking their deficiencies.
On our team, they were unable to compete for a regular top 6 position. The one that was more capable of contributing in the bottom 6 (while he continued developing) was kept, and the other one moved on. When Raymond showed no further progress, he too was let go. His defensive game was more than passable, but he was too weak to contribute at either end of the rink when it mattered, and didn't show enough offensive upside to threaten to break into the top 6 permanently.

There just isn't room on every NHL roster to keep every prospect playing enough to develop him. Especially when you're trying to win at the same time.

Good teams need to have good players that excell at something. Tweeners are great for plugging holes in case of injury, but don't really bring a lot to the table otherwise. Both Raymond and Grabner are decent players, but neither of them had, or has, what the Canucks need.
That might be true in la la land but in reality we have had Booth (fan favourite till the penny dropped) Higgins, invisible in playoffs, Hansen, invisible and inconsistent, Kes, nothing too special these days, Kassian, duh! Burrows? ..............the list goes on and on and not one of them matching Raymond's season just now.

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01-14-2014, 12:14 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
For a guy who couldn't pass the puck, he laid on more chances than anyone not named Sedin when he was fit

Basically his biggest problem is he avoids contact.

I have watched him in T and he has hardly fallen down at all........no more than some others thats for sure.

He suffered more than one serious injury and it was obvious he was getting over his (latest one) spine fracture prior to his last Canucks season.

However after a great start AV started playing him with low IQ talentless players who often couldn't pass or anticipate a pass.

He has to be played in the 1st or 2nd line imo to get the best out of him. His defence was better in Vancouver than it appears in T, I'm not sure why that is.

In summing up despite what some of the clueless playstation jockeys on CDC would have us believe we have missed Raymond's sniping, speed and hockey IQ. The Canucks would have difficulty putting it in an empty net at present, meanwhile Raymond has 12 goals and 28 points at the halfway stage.........playing for the Leafs. Not bad for $1M

Way to go Gillis!
This is pretty gosh darned one-sided.

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01-14-2014, 01:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
That might be true in la la land but in reality we have had Booth (fan favourite till the penny dropped) Higgins, invisible in playoffs, Hansen, invisible and inconsistent, Kes, nothing too special these days, Kassian, duh! Burrows? ..............the list goes on and on and not one of them matching Raymond's season just now.
Invisible, or just not putting up points? The thing about Higgins, Kesler, Hansen and Burrows is that they can play a physical, grinding game and still be effective players even when they're not contributing on the score sheet. Booth has been a mess, but even he can win battles on the boards and lay down heavy hits. Kassian is just silly to bring up as he was a rookie in the playoffs. Did you really expect that much from him at that stage of his career?

Raymond has nothing to offer if he's not scoring, except a decent defensive game that wilts as badly as his offensive game when matched against physical, hardworking players.

And honestly the most frustrating thing about Raymond is not that he was a streaky player. It's that his effort was streaky. He's more than capable of being a 30 goal, 60-70 point player. But you're hard pressed to get more than 15 games in a season where he plays that way.
If he was a Higgins type that works his ass off for at least 70 games each season, and scored 15-20 goals in spurts, it would be more acceptable than scoring a ppg for the 15-20 games that he decides to make a effort in (scoring 50% of his points), and then just taking up space, being weak and pointless for the rest of the time.

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Old
01-14-2014, 01:20 PM
  #113
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My problem was he fell to the ice whenever anyone in the Rogers Arena washroom farted.

Which seemed to be most times he was on the ice.

Good regular season player; not fit for Western Conference playoff hockey.

He needed to go to the East.

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01-14-2014, 02:06 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Nucker101 View Post
That he would suck in a game like that one against the Kings tonight.
3 games vs LA last year, Raymond had 2g 3p, including a 1-0 game winner. Late tying goal vs the Blues in a game we were outhit and outplayed. 2 goals in a gong show game vs the Ducks.

Raymond had his streaks, but big physical teams were not his kryptonite. Just hot and cold in general. He matches up better vs teams like LA than guys like Higgy and Hansen, who play LA style, but aren't fast, big or skilled enough to beat em at it.

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01-14-2014, 02:11 PM
  #115
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Raymond is tall but has a short torso and long legs which gives him a higher center of gravity so he gets knocked around too easily


Last edited by Ryp37: 01-15-2014 at 04:07 PM.
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Old
01-14-2014, 05:11 PM
  #116
Nucker101
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Originally Posted by CanucksSayEh View Post
3 games vs LA last year, Raymond had 2g 3p, including a 1-0 game winner. Late tying goal vs the Blues in a game we were outhit and outplayed. 2 goals in a gong show game vs the Ducks.

Raymond had his streaks, but big physical teams were not his kryptonite. Just hot and cold in general. He matches up better vs teams like LA than guys like Higgy and Hansen, who play LA style, but aren't fast, big or skilled enough to beat em at it.
Interesting, I guess I should take back what I said. 3 Games is a small sample size though, I'd like to see his numbers against STL/LA during his last 2 seasons here. I do agree that Higgins/Hansen don't match up well against the Kings/Blues at all. Higgins in general seems less of a factor in the playoffs, he works his ass off and in the playoffs everyone ramps up their effort and since he doesn't have legit top 6 skill and isn't a big body I truly think that his strengths/weaknesses in general don't match up well in a high intensity game against a big team.

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01-15-2014, 01:53 PM
  #117
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The point is Raymond has a style and it produces. Who gives a fart how much work and hits a player hands out if it doesn't show on the scoreboard.
Also as I said Raymond lays on far more chances for those around him than the likes of Booth Hansen, Higgins etc. The bottom line is we are not scoring and we are giving up games and points because of it.
Kassian can hit, but he doesn't and he's the epitome of shady.

Let's keep to the facts and leave favouritism out of it. Raymond is out performing more than half our forward roster and he is drawing $1M.

Many of us knew this would happen based on last season's improvement and the biggest mistake AV and Gillis made was dropping Raymond down the line to play Booth.

We got to the SC finals with skilled players like Raymond and Gillis panicked when Boston beat us in the final game, apparently unable to read his own team's injury list. He's a clown!

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01-15-2014, 02:13 PM
  #118
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
The point is Raymond has a style and it produces. Who gives a fart how much work and hits a player hands out if it doesn't show on the scoreboard.
Also as I said Raymond lays on far more chances for those around him than the likes of Booth Hansen, Higgins etc. The bottom line is we are not scoring and we are giving up games and points because of it.
Kassian can hit, but he doesn't and he's the epitome of shady.

Let's keep to the facts and leave favouritism out of it. Raymond is out performing more than half our forward roster and he is drawing $1M.

Many of us knew this would happen based on last season's improvement and the biggest mistake AV and Gillis made was dropping Raymond down the line to play Booth.

We got to the SC finals with skilled players like Raymond and Gillis panicked when Boston beat us in the final game, apparently unable to read his own team's injury list. He's a clown!
raymond has a style and it produces, until it doesn't. which is when the games get real.

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01-15-2014, 02:15 PM
  #119
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He's a pretty good value at $1 million, but other than that he's a pretty generic player.

He'll likely end up with 15-20 goals and 40-45 points. Not bad, but that's probably less than you want out of a top 6 player. He's responsible defensively, but doesn't add any grit.

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01-15-2014, 02:15 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
The point is Raymond has a style and it produces. Who gives a fart how much work and hits a player hands out if it doesn't show on the scoreboard.
Also as I said Raymond lays on far more chances for those around him than the likes of Booth Hansen, Higgins etc. The bottom line is we are not scoring and we are giving up games and points because of it.
Kassian can hit, but he doesn't and he's the epitome of shady.

Let's keep to the facts and leave favouritism out of it. Raymond is out performing more than half our forward roster and he is drawing $1M.

Many of us knew this would happen based on last season's improvement and the biggest mistake AV and Gillis made was dropping Raymond down the line to play Booth.

We got to the SC finals with skilled players like Raymond and Gillis panicked when Boston beat us in the final game, apparently unable to read his own team's injury list. He's a clown!

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01-16-2014, 08:24 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
The point is Raymond has a style and it produces. Who gives a fart how much work and hits a player hands out if it doesn't show on the scoreboard.

...

Let's keep to the facts and leave favouritism out of it. Raymond is out performing more than half our forward roster and he is drawing $1M.

Many of us knew this would happen based on last season's improvement and the biggest mistake AV and Gillis made was dropping Raymond down the line to play Booth.

We got to the SC finals with skilled players like Raymond and Gillis panicked when Boston beat us in the final game, apparently unable to read his own team's injury list. He's a clown!
And just how productive was Raymond in the playoffs? It's not like Raymond showed up on the scoreboard more than Higgins or Hansen.

As for Raymond out performing more than half of our forward roster, who is he really outperforming? He's not outperforming the Sedins and Kesler. He has similar numbers to Santorelli and Higgins. Sure, Raymond has better offensive numbers than Hansen, Booth, Richardson, and Burrows. But c'mon this board has already established that Booth isn't worth the cap hit, Richardson isn't on the roster for his offensive production, and Burrows has been injured. Santorelli and other forwards on the roster make less than Raymond. So despite Raymond having put up some decent numbers thus far, it doesn't change the fact that he would barely be one of the team's top 6 forwards in offensive production. Heck, even in Toronto Raymond might rank 3rd in points on the Leafs, but he's barely 5th in minutes among forwards, being just slightly ahead of Kadri whom many would consider to be better.

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01-16-2014, 08:27 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by F A N View Post
And just how productive was Raymond in the playoffs? It's not like Raymond showed up on the scoreboard more than Higgins or Hansen.

As for Raymond out performing more than half of our forward roster, who is he really outperforming? He's not outperforming the Sedins and Kesler. He has similar numbers to Santorelli and Higgins. Sure, Raymond has better offensive numbers than Hansen, Booth, Richardson, and Burrows. But c'mon this board has already established that Booth isn't worth the cap hit, Richardson isn't on the roster for his offensive production, and Burrows has been injured. Santorelli and other forwards on the roster make less than Raymond. So despite Raymond having put up some decent numbers thus far, it doesn't change the fact that he would barely be one of the team's top 6 forwards in offensive production. Heck, even in Toronto Raymond might rank 3rd in points on the Leafs, but he's barely 5th in minutes among forwards, being just slightly ahead of Kadri whom many would consider to be better.
Do you even read the posts above?

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01-16-2014, 08:37 AM
  #123
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Do you even read the posts above?
You mean the posts that says essentially you're wrong?

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01-16-2014, 08:59 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by F A N View Post
And just how productive was Raymond in the playoffs? It's not like Raymond showed up on the scoreboard more than Higgins or Hansen.

As for Raymond out performing more than half of our forward roster, who is he really outperforming? He's not outperforming the Sedins and Kesler. He has similar numbers to Santorelli and Higgins. Sure, Raymond has better offensive numbers than Hansen, Booth, Richardson, and Burrows. But c'mon this board has already established that Booth isn't worth the cap hit, Richardson isn't on the roster for his offensive production, and Burrows has been injured. Santorelli and other forwards on the roster make less than Raymond. So despite Raymond having put up some decent numbers thus far, it doesn't change the fact that he would barely be one of the team's top 6 forwards in offensive production. Heck, even in Toronto Raymond might rank 3rd in points on the Leafs, but he's barely 5th in minutes among forwards, being just slightly ahead of Kadri whom many would consider to be better.
Hes isnt productive in the playoffs but puhleese neither is half the team.

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Old
01-16-2014, 12:40 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by pahlsson View Post
I think the answer you're looking for is, yes, raymond is a highly flawed player and no, he isn't a big reason why the leafs are bad
Agree. A useful top 9 winger who certainly has his flaws but was always a hardworking soldier for us during his time here. For what the Leafs signed him they should be thrilled with what he's done so far. Plus I can't imagine him being a contributor to the reason they're so poor defensively. The entire team is a gongshow in their own end.

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