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Old
01-26-2007, 01:24 AM
  #76
Marconius
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
my proble m is if you are going to throw out Bs like he did (it is one thing to criticze
a player to the degree it is warranted but to basically say he was far below our other d men and our worst liability) then you better have something that will back it up.
He has backed it up.

You're the one ranting on the basis of flawed statistics out of context

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01-26-2007, 01:30 AM
  #77
gr8haluschak
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
He has backed it up.

You're the one ranting and using flawed statistics out of context
how the hell has he backed it up he sat there and and said he brought down the plus minus of every player he played with, really seems that I went brought up the stats that would say otherwise as those so called players would have a similar plus minus. He said he is a one of our biggest defensive liabilities and I brought up giveaways seeing how those should be realited correct ? He said he is consatantly being made to look bad and for proof all he has is three goals, oh sorry he made his point just like saying look at many threads is making his point. Finally it seems you were the one who used flawed stats (a season wide plus minus) out of context for your argument.

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01-26-2007, 01:32 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
He has backed it up.

You're the one ranting on the basis of flawed statistics out of context
Eh, he's not worth it, it's past his bed time and he's getting cranky.

I missed this gem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post

Lately I have had more faith in the Greene Smid pairing than any other pairing on the ice.

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01-26-2007, 01:35 AM
  #79
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Im not going to get into the debate of whether or not Smid is a top 4 d-man on this team, but I will say that he is helping this team better than any other d-man in our system could. Also, considering he is being played more than he should be, its not that he has played really well, its that he hasn't played badly which could be expected of other players of his age and experience.

On the topic of the Young Stars game... it was BRUTAL, and NO analysis can be drawn from any of the players, not one player seemed to skate greater than 45%. Malkin looked like the worst forward in the game, but he is the best actual player among them, so players criticizing Smid for not playing well need to give there heads a shake, no one played good in that embarrassing effort. It was a sham, I hope all the players are ashamed of themselves. They made a fool out of themselves, and out of the coaches.

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01-26-2007, 01:38 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
*sigh* The giveaway stat has been proven to be largly useless as well. Go check the league leaders in giveaways. Players who like to have the puck on their stick simply give the puck away more, it has very little relevance when taken out of context.
So what stats are useful ? are any of them. Fact is it is flawed in terms how it is determined then it is flawed for everyone and in proportion (lets say only 25% of them are legit) then it should make no differnce. Added to that which of the d men skate with the puck more Smith or Smid - Smid so then would you not expect his give aways to be much higher than Smiths, by your reasoning

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Now if you want to tell me that based on the games you've watched Smith has turned the puck over on numerous occasions, I will not disagree with you.

But if you want to say that Smid hasn't been doing that, then I've got to wonder what games you're watching.
Where did I say that ? no where what I am saying is the fact he is (on this team) a top three guy

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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
The difference between Smith & Smid, is while both are guilty of unforced turnovers, Smith's grit along hte boards and defensive game allow him to be a top 4 contributor right now (I wouldn't even put him top 2 in his current slump), but that does not change the fact that Smid is not.
Oh what because Smid does not grind along the boards he is not a top d man, I will ask you this does Lidstrom have the same grit ? he does it by positioning, like Smid does

Finally what ___ slump are you talking about seriously go look at his games and his game by game logs, oh whoops I forgot those are meaningless stats

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01-26-2007, 01:39 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Eh, he's not worth it, it's past his bed time and he's getting cranky.

I missed this gem:



Yeah because jason Smith has been soo good all year right, and Bergeron as well has been a world beater and after the nonsense you threw out about how terrible Smid has been you are in no position to talk about gems.

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01-26-2007, 01:41 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Im not going to get into the debate of whether or not Smid is a top 4 d-man on this team, but I will say that he is helping this team better than any other d-man in our system could. Also, considering he is being played more than he should be, its not that he has played really well, its that he hasn't played badly which could be expected of other players of his age and experience.
Exactly he makes his rookie mistakes but they are far less costly than most of our d mens usual mistakes. Added to that it either shows the sad state of our d men or how good he will be.


Last edited by gr8haluschak: 01-26-2007 at 01:47 AM.
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Old
01-26-2007, 08:31 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
So what stats are useful ? are any of them. Fact is it is flawed in terms how it is determined then it is flawed for everyone and in proportion (lets say only 25% of them are legit) then it should make no differnce. Added to that which of the d men skate with the puck more Smith or Smid - Smid so then would you not expect his give aways to be much higher than Smiths, by your reasoning
You're totally right, most statistics are flawed when taken out of context, but giveaways & plus/minues more then the others. And I've already agreed that Smith has had an alarming number of giveaways this season. I don't just see his stat-line and start parroting them them like you seem to do though, I WATCH the games and see that Smith is giving the puck away like a madman at times. Then the statistics become a little more valid.

Quote:
Where did I say that ? no where what I am saying is the fact he is (on this team) a top three guy
"Lately I have had more faith in the Greene Smid pairing than any other pairing on the ice."

"how that does not make him one of our top d" (Talking about Smid)

Are you not reading your own posts?

Quote:
Oh what because Smid does not grind along the boards he is not a top d man, I will ask you this does Lidstrom have the same grit ? he does it by positioning, like Smid does
See, the thing is, that Lidstrom contributes an offensive game, but more importantly uses his superiour on-ice positioning to virtually eliminate chances before they happen. Smid does not contribute to the offense and his lack of positioning is basically what started this thread. So, to answer your question, no, grit is not an important part of Lidstrom's game, nor does it have to be.

Quote:
Finally what ___ slump are you talking about seriously go look at his games and his game by game logs, oh whoops I forgot those are meaningless stats
I'm talking about Smith's slump. Are you reading the posts to fast again in your eagerness to reply? Last season I would have ranked him a top pairing guy, a weaker top pairing guy, but a top pairing guy none-the-less. This season, in his current slump, I think he's dropped to 3-4.

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01-26-2007, 02:21 PM
  #84
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What if I were to tell you I have heard from people who know more then any of us about hockey and the Oilers D in general that Smid is/was the best D the Oil has/had since mid-december!?

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01-26-2007, 02:54 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bizzler View Post
What if I were to tell you I have heard from people who know more then any of us about hockey and the Oilers D in general that Smid is/was the best D the Oil has/had since mid-december!?
I'd say that's some tastey kool-aid.

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01-26-2007, 02:57 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Exactly he makes his rookie mistakes but they are far less costly than most of our d mens usual mistakes.
Do you have anything to support this?

He's been on the ice for the 2nd most goals against of any Oiler defenceman. I'd say a lot of his mistakes end up being pretty costly.

Mistakes don't get any more expensive than the ones you fish out of your own net.

Quote:
Added to that it either shows the sad state of our d men or how good he will be.
I don't think it says either or.

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01-26-2007, 03:39 PM
  #87
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The only stats that really matter when talking about defencemen in terms of where they rank on the team is icetime. The coaches, who are supposedly the people who know the team the best put the best defencemen on the ice the most, and currently Smid is in the top 4 in icetime per game among oiler defencemen. If he wasn't one of the top 4 defencemen on the team would he be getting top 4 minutes??? no he would not, remember, the coaches in Edmonton have a long track record of sheltering the minutes that rookies play unless they have no other options.

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01-26-2007, 04:01 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
The only stats that really matter when talking about defencemen in terms of where they rank on the team is icetime. The coaches, who are supposedly the people who know the team the best put the best defencemen on the ice the most, and currently Smid is in the top 4 in icetime per game among oiler defencemen. If he wasn't one of the top 4 defencemen on the team would he be getting top 4 minutes??? no he would not, remember, the coaches in Edmonton have a long track record of sheltering the minutes that rookies play unless they have no other options.
And they have no other options.

They simply cannot afford to play Smid-Greene together unless they have no choice (and with their current injuries, they have no choice).

So that means it's either MAB-Greene playing the 3/4 role, or Smid-Staios. With Staios out there, he can add a presence to help out in key situations. The Coaching options were rather limited.

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01-26-2007, 04:08 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
The only stats that really matter when talking about defencemen in terms of where they rank on the team is icetime. The coaches, who are supposedly the people who know the team the best put the best defencemen on the ice the most, and currently Smid is in the top 4 in icetime per game among oiler defencemen. If he wasn't one of the top 4 defencemen on the team would he be getting top 4 minutes??? no he would not, remember, the coaches in Edmonton have a long track record of sheltering the minutes that rookies play unless they have no other options.

First of all, many statistics matter when talking about defenceman. In fact the more information you have in relationtion to a players performance the better the analysis, one would think.

Second, Smid is getting top 4/5 minutes because, as you put it, they have no other options. So doesn't that completely throw your argument out the window? It's the only stat that matters when the team make up has 2 regular NHLers and a mix of rookies and prospects? Flat out wrong.

Third, Smid is okay, but there are many of his peers who I would prefer. I hope he can transform his positioning into a solid Dman. He is not all that useful in the offensive zone, like at all. On this team he is jst another stay at home guy, but without the physicality of Smith or Greene. That is not to say he is without talent, he has tonnes of talent, but in a #2 sort of way, rather than a #1.

Fourth, I hate Brian Burke, Chris Pronger, and Al Strachan. For an expanded list read my posts, I'll be here all week.

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01-26-2007, 04:51 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
And they have no other options.

They simply cannot afford to play Smid-Greene together unless they have no choice (and with their current injuries, they have no choice).

So that means it's either MAB-Greene playing the 3/4 role, or Smid-Staios. With Staios out there, he can add a presence to help out in key situations. The Coaching options were rather limited.
Or they could have used MAB-Staios, but they'd avoided that at all costs. Some would say because Smid-Greene couldn't even handle playing third pairing together, but since Staios has been out those two have been even. Bergeron has been minus six.

The Oilers would be in alot better shape if their slapshot guy could play 5 on 5. They should go after Poti again.

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01-26-2007, 04:58 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bizzler View Post
What if I were to tell you I have heard from people who know more then any of us about hockey and the Oilers D in general that Smid is/was the best D the Oil has/had since mid-december!?
What if I were to tell you I have heard from people who know more then any of us about hockey and the Oilers in general that Hemsky is the most talented player in the league?

Gretzky said it, still doesn't mean much does it?

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01-26-2007, 05:01 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Exactly he makes his rookie mistakes but they are far less costly than most of our d mens usual mistakes. Added to that it either shows the sad state of our d men or how good he will be.
So you're allowed to just arbitrarily deciding that Smid's rookie mistakes are less costly then a veteran defenceman's mistakes?

That's awfully handy for your (lack of) argument

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01-26-2007, 06:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by 21Gator View Post
First of all, many statistics matter when talking about defenceman. In fact the more information you have in relationtion to a players performance the better the analysis, one would think.

Second, Smid is getting top 4/5 minutes because, as you put it, they have no other options. So doesn't that completely throw your argument out the window? It's the only stat that matters when the team make up has 2 regular NHLers and a mix of rookies and prospects? Flat out wrong.

Third, Smid is okay, but there are many of his peers who I would prefer. I hope he can transform his positioning into a solid Dman. He is not all that useful in the offensive zone, like at all. On this team he is jst another stay at home guy, but without the physicality of Smith or Greene. That is not to say he is without talent, he has tonnes of talent, but in a #2 sort of way, rather than a #1.

Fourth, I hate Brian Burke, Chris Pronger, and Al Strachan. For an expanded list read my posts, I'll be here all week.

my beef was with people making claims like "Smid isn't helping the team" or that he's not one of the teams best defencemen etc etc. The fact is that Smid is one of the teams best defencemen and the only reasons these people keep trying to convince people that he isn't is because he's a 20 year old rookie and that doesn't jive with their preconceived notions.

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