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01-25-2007, 01:03 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Well if Prucha is dealt for Prucha well all be happy...
Haha, caught me, obviously rushed the post...seriously though, if Malone cannot produce playing with Crosby...then with who? If his peak is 22 goals and 40 someodd points, there is no way Prucha should be dealt. Prucha definitely can bring that PLUS the intangibles of hustle and hardwork

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01-25-2007, 01:15 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Whats your point?

Kondratiev were rushed, he should have been kept in Russia/AHL for another season. He defenitly would have been a improvement over Kaspar/Pck/Girardi and the rest this season. Its easy to forget that. We scream for kids this season, but wasted a pretty decent D last season rushing him.

Moore for Hall, a terrible trade.

Lundqvist is our starter. Tyutin plays a major role on the blueline. Hollweg have been Hollweg. Prucha got 20 pts despite having a pretty ugly soapmore slump.

Just like Lundqvist won a spot, Staal will take one next season. Just like Tyutin were a given on the blueline last season, Dubinsky will be hard to keep outside the roster upfront. Prucha won a spot, I am sure Korpikoski, Dawes, Pyatt and Callahan will push hard to accomplish the same next season. We have seen upsets in the past, who knows in what kind of shape someone like Anisimov or Olver comes into camp next season.

Its easy to get brainwashed by all fans who can't take loosing a hockey game here in Rangerland. But the talk about Renney beeing a vet lover and stuff like that just don't holdup. Neither thoose the comparisions with how other teams handles there kids, they are just unintelligent. Cause first of all most of them are high regarded 1st round picks. Nobody here seems to got a problem with us sending Staal to the CHL, thats whom Wolski should be compared with. Then, for every player like that who makes it there are 100's who don't, its not like other teams always are playing just about any kid, they are dooing it with thoose who are good, just like we did with our 6 rookies last season. Had Immonen or Dawes played well up here they would have stuck just like Prucha, Holllweg and Moore did last season.

If you want him fired because you think Immonen is better then he thinks, thats one thing. If you want him fired for his lines thats a good reason. But these Renney got some hidden agenda and loves veterans/czechs rants are getting pretty tiresome. Especially since he brought up 6 rookies last season.

edit: I don't got time to fix all the wrong allusions or bad spelling, so please have some oversight with it!
You misunderstand. I'm not asking that any of the kids be rushed. What I'm saying is that Lundqvist and Tyutin aside, this management team has not been bringing up kids in the SIX YEARS they've been running this franchise. And the jury is still out on Lundqvist. Nobody else they brought up last year is contributing this year.

Even though he has the best chance, you can't pencil Staal in for a spot next year. Tyutin spent time in Hartford, and depending on training camp, Staal may spend a year or two there as well. Korpikoski, Dawes, Pyatt, Callahan, Immonen, etc...no guarantee even one of them will make the team. There are plenty of Jason Krogs out there instead.

Totally unfair to imply losing a hockey game is making Ranger fans crazy. I think a lot of people would agree that losing lots hockey games would be OK IF we were properly building for the future. But we're not. We're losing with aging vets and a bunch of fourth liners playing in positions they shouldn't. And we're not improving.

In fact, I wish our record was as bad as the Flyers' right now, so we could all agree serious changes need to be made. This team as constituted is going nowhere, has very little in the way of potential future stars, and their best players are all at or past their prime. And we're a Jagr and Shanahan injury away from being the Flyers of 2008 anyway.

Bottom line is changes have to start at the top (the Edmonton Genius), and they won't, so we're guaranteed to be having this exact same conversation about different names in five years. Maybe ten.

And Renney has proven to be a terrible coach this year, not necessarily for his handling of kids/veterans, but for a lot of more important reasons as well.

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01-25-2007, 01:37 PM
  #28
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Malone sucks.

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01-25-2007, 01:48 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Whats your point?

Kondratiev were rushed, he should have been kept in Russia/AHL for another season. He defenitly would have been a improvement over Kaspar/Pck/Girardi and the rest this season. Its easy to forget that. We scream for kids this season, but wasted a pretty decent D last season rushing him.
I really don't see how you can say that Kondratiev was rushed but Dawes has been given a fair shot.

Drats made the Leafs out of camp in 03-04. He played decent in the AHL after being sent down (8 points in 18) He then bolted to Russia were seemingly didn't play anywhere.

When he finally played in Russia in 04-05 he did little. And then had 5 points in 15 games with Hartford.

He then made the Rangers out of camp and showed very little. He got traded to the Ducks and never played a game for him. He was sent to Portland.

Now he's back in Russia. I just don't think he has the heart or desire to play in North America. He's had enough chances to.

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01-25-2007, 03:03 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I really don't see how you can say that Kondratiev was rushed but Dawes has been given a fair shot.
I don't know if fair shot, but I don't think Dawes should play in the NHL this season. I don't think he would benefit from it. Lets say we cut him now, I wouldn't say he exactly were given a fair shot though.

Though Kondratiev were brough in here in a pretty tough situation, with more experience its defenitly possible he would have done better. He had a helluva PO for Portland, Anaheim played pretty well last season, but its strange that he weren't given a chance there.

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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
You misunderstand. I'm not asking that any of the kids be rushed. What I'm saying is that Lundqvist and Tyutin aside, this management team has not been bringing up kids in the SIX YEARS they've been running this franchise. And the jury is still out on Lundqvist. Nobody else they brought up last year is contributing this year.

Totally unfair to imply losing a hockey game is making Ranger fans crazy. I think a lot of people would agree that losing lots hockey games would be OK IF we were properly building for the future. But we're not. We're losing with aging vets and a bunch of fourth liners playing in positions they shouldn't. And we're not improving.

In fact, I wish our record was as bad as the Flyers' right now, so we could all agree serious changes need to be made. This team as constituted is going nowhere, has very little in the way of potential future stars, and their best players are all at or past their prime. And we're a Jagr and Shanahan injury away from being the Flyers of 2008 anyway.

Bottom line is changes have to start at the top (the Edmonton Genius), and they won't, so we're guaranteed to be having this exact same conversation about different names in five years. Maybe ten.

And Renney has proven to be a terrible coach this year, not necessarily for his handling of kids/veterans, but for a lot of more important reasons as well.
Sorry. I completly agree with you looking at a 6 year perspective. I wouldn't mind if Sather were fired yesterday. I have been extremely critical on this org for not playing the trap, how the team were put together with extremely few 2-way players. Not one of the centers we had could take the puck up ice if they life depended on it. When we got Rucinsky it might have been the only skating 2-way player we had in that era.

Though, I don't agree with you that we aren't building properly for the future, I really love the direction Renney is taking this team now. Installing a system, drafting players to fit in that system. Creating a enviorment off the ice to develop these kids. Never sacrifizing/taking risks with the kids to gain something now. All players we have signed have low risk contracts. Renney's job would have been allot easier if a D like Kubina/Kuba were signed along with a center like Savard, though if we had done that we wouldn't have had the same room for the next 4-5 years.

His game coaching can be questioned, as always with any coach, but, I don't think the results are bad. Also, a coach always gets to much blame when things go bad, and too much cred when things go good. A coach can have a big impact, if you look at it from a 4-5 years perspective. Thats how long it takes to install a system. Look at the successful teams in this league, and how many players they have comming back, and how long the respective coaches have been there, or continued something that another coach started. Buffalo in 05-06 had 16 players on their roster that had been there in 02-03. Carolina in 05-06 had 11 players on their roster that had been there in 02-03. Laviolette have been in Carolina since 2003', where he have continued to work in the same direction with what Maurice started more then a decade ago. Lindy Ruff have been in Buffalo since 98'. I also likes that Renney have aimed high with his system, its allot easier to play a more simple, straight forward game, but the potential output is allot lower in the end.

On Rangerfans not beeing able to take a loss. I am beeing a bit agitating there, are there more loyal fans in the world of sports?, though I defenitly feel that a helluva lot of the critisisim Renney gets have no base whatsoever. Like the talk about never playing kids, if they aren't ready they aren't. He played thoose who were last season, if he loved vets so much, Rucinsky would have been back...

Then its guys like Pck and Baranka. Nobody have any patient with someone like Rachunek, allot of people had problems with Kondratiev last season, just go back and check old GDT's, and then the same people want the coach fired for not playing guys who are worse then them and only like 11 month younger? To me thats people trying to stick the bad results on someone. Or how else can you explain it? Especially when someone like Immonen have none or really little upside, ie not much to gain from playing him.

Prucha, this is a kid who I have followed for gooing on 5 years, I love him, but he have always been used as a checking line player. In the Czech national league he constantly played on a checking line. 3 diffrent coaches in the Czech Rep used him there, and were for example picked ahead of Havlat to play that role for the Czech for the WCH in Prague. When I have seen Prucha this season I have not only seen a player having trouble scoring, I've seen a player who had lost allot of confidence in other areas too. If Renney plays Prucha spotty on the 4th line, and scratches him regulary this season, I would have a huge problem with it. But I don't have any problems with it if Petr are sat down and plays him in smaller roles till he gets back to the basics. Prucha have also after all started more times on the 2nd line then any other place.


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01-25-2007, 03:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I don't know if fair shot, but I don't think Dawes should play in the NHL this season. I don't think he would benefit from it. Lets say we cut him now, I wouldn't say he exactly were given a fair shot though.

Though Kondratiev were brough in here in a pretty tough situation, with more experience its defenitly possible he would have done better. He had a helluva PO for Portland, Anaheim played pretty well last season, but its strange that he weren't given a chance there.



Sorry. I completly agree with you looking at a 6 year perspective. I wouldn't mind if Sather were fired yesterday. I have been extremely critical on this org for not playing the trap, how the team were put together with extremely few 2-way players. Not one of the centers we had could take the puck up ice if they life depended on it. When we got Rucinsky it might have been the only skating 2-way player we had in that era.

Though, I don't agree with you that we aren't building properly for the future, I really love the direction Renney is taking this team now. Installing a system, drafting players to fit in that system. Creating a enviorment off the ice to develop these kids. Never sacrifizing/taking risks with the kids to gain something now. All players we have signed have low risk contracts. Renney's job would have been allot easier if a D like Kubina/Kuba were signed along with a center like Savard, though if we had done that we wouldn't have had the same room for the next 4-5 years.

His game coaching can be questioned, as always with any coach, but, I don't think the results are bad. Also, a coach always gets to much blame when things go bad, and too much cred when things go good. A coach can have a big impact, if you look at it from a 4-5 years perspective. Thats how long it takes to install a system. Look at the successful teams in this league, and how many players they have comming back, and how long the respective coaches have been there, or continued something that another coach started. Buffalo in 05-06 had 16 players on their roster that had been there in 02-03. Carolina in 05-06 had 11 players on their roster that had been there in 02-03. Laviolette have been in Carolina since 2003', where he have continued to work in the same direction with what Maurice started more then a decade ago. Lindy Ruff have been in Buffalo since 98'. I also likes that Renney have aimed high with his system, its allot easier to play a more simple, straight forward game, but the potential output is allot lower in the end.

On Rangerfans not beeing able to take a loss. I am beeing a bit agitating there, are there more loyal fans in the world of sports?, though I defenitly feel that a helluva lot of the critisisim Renney gets have no base whatsoever. Like the talk about never playing kids, if they aren't ready they aren't. He played thoose who were last season, if he loved vets so much, Rucinsky would have been back...

Then its guys like Pck and Baranka. Nobody have any patient with someone like Rachunek, allot of people had problems with Kondratiev last season, just go back and check old GDT's, and then the same people want the coach fired for not playing guys who are worse then them and only like 11 month younger? To me thats people trying to stick the bad results on someone. Or how else can you explain it? Especially when someone like Immonen have none or really little upside, ie not much to gain from playing him.

Prucha, this is a kid who I have followed for gooing on 5 years, I love him, but he have always been used as a checking line player. In the Czech national league he constantly played on a checking line. 3 diffrent coaches in the Czech Rep used him there, and were for example picked ahead of Havlat to play that role for the Czech for the WCH in Prague. When I have seen Prucha this season I have not only seen a player having trouble scoring, I've seen a player who had lost allot of confidence in other areas too. If Renney plays Prucha spotty on the 4th line, and scratches him regulary this season, I would have a huge problem with it. But I don't have any problems with it if Petr are sat down and plays him in smaller roles till he gets back to the basics. Prucha have also after all started more times on the 2nd line then any other place.
Man if you love the direction Renney is taking the team now, you're one of the few. Except for rare exceptions this team plays with absolutely no heart. A lot of nights it seems we care more about the outcome of the game than the players do. The mixing and matching of the lines has been horrendous. The power play is terrible 5 on 4, and worse 5 on 3. Shanahan wants the team to shoot and pressure the goalie. Jagr wants to circle and pass and find the perfect shot. Neither one is happening, so nothing works. Thanks coach. His handling of Prucha is awful. A different (good) coach will turn this kid into a 30-40 goal scorer. His treatment of Lundqvist in Toronto had to be seen to be believed. So many of the problems on this team can be pointed directly at the coach. He just doesn't put his team in the best position to succeed.

My problem with not playing the kids isn't based solely on Renney not playing the kids. It just bothers me so much more when a Maloney comes on the radio and starts talking up all the great youth the team is going to have, when it hasn't been proven we have any great youth whatsoever. It's just patting yourself on the back, and the blind followers amongst us start with the same Maloney-speak even though this management team has an atrocious track record of bringing kids up through the system.

When Marc Staal wins the Calder in two years, then you can tell me how great our youth is. When we have a Brian Leetch and a Tony Granato breaking in at the same time, with a Mike Richter soon to follow, then you can tell me how great our youth is. When an Alexei Kovalev comes over for a pre-season and dazzles us, but he has to go back to Russia for a year because he has one year left over there, then you can tell us how great our youth is. But don't insult us by telling us how great the kids are going to be when none of them have proven they'll even be NHL regulars.

And this management team has proven it's sorely lacking in the player evaluation department.

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01-25-2007, 07:48 PM
  #32
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Prucha straight up for Malone makes little sense forma NYRs standpoint. They both play LW so what is the purpose? Malone & Orpik for Prucha & Rachunek, more likely a Malik on the surface sound interesting. But again, I think ,ost NYR fans would think we are strongest in Goal and on D as far as young players go. I like Orpik, but I don;t know if I trade prucha to get him. Malone is OK. It Pitt wants to get rid of him they can have him for Hall or Cullen.

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01-25-2007, 09:25 PM
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It is normal for young players to have an up and down development curve. Just as it is a mistake not to give young players a chance, it is also a mistake to give up on them once they struggle after having initial success. Prucha has the skills to be a highly successful winger in this league: this year has been a disappointment. He hasn't played all that well when given the opportunity and has been consistently misused. You can't write him off or consider trading him. You must keep playing him in a role where he can succeed. Unfortunately, we do not have a second line, playmaking center who can maximize Prucha's skills and Shanny has taken over his PP minutes.
Who knows what the future holds for him. Can he be a 30+ goalscore or is this year a true indicator of what the future holds? The jury is out, but to trade him now and see him develop into a star elsewhere would be a tremendous mistake. Danger flags are flying all over with Prucha and I have my doubts about him but I'm not ready to see him go. Patience is the word when it comes for him. I won't mind taking a gamble on Malone, but not for Prucha.
In regards to Kondratiev: the danger signals were out with him along; he seemed to use every opportunity (even with the Leafs) to go home to Russia. I thought he had the ability to do well in the NHL, but its hard to measure someone's heart. The question is: what were the Rangers options in the Leetch trade. I have heard two stories. One was that they had a choice between Kondratiev and Carlo Colaiacovo and choose Kondratiev. The other was that the Leafs would not give up Colaiacovo and wanted the Rangers to choose Kondratiev. If Sather had a choice, he once again choose incorrectly. Yes, Colaiacovo has never developed the way it was hoped he would and always seems to be hurt. But at least he's here. At least he still has some upside and young D develop slowly. Did the Rangers do their due diligence on Kondratiev or not? If not, it's another sad story in Ranger young player development.
Say what you may: the Ranger track record for the last decade with your players has been horrible.

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01-26-2007, 04:42 AM
  #34
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Man if you love the direction Renney is taking the team now, you're one of the few. Except for rare exceptions this team plays with absolutely no heart. A lot of nights it seems we care more about the outcome of the game than the players do. The mixing and matching of the lines has been horrendous. The power play is terrible 5 on 4, and worse 5 on 3. Shanahan wants the team to shoot and pressure the goalie. Jagr wants to circle and pass and find the perfect shot. Neither one is happening, so nothing works. Thanks coach. His handling of Prucha is awful. A different (good) coach will turn this kid into a 30-40 goal scorer.

When Marc Staal wins the Calder in two years, then you can tell me how great our youth is. When we have a Brian Leetch and a Tony Granato breaking in at the same time, with a Mike Richter soon to follow, then you can tell me how great our youth is. When an Alexei Kovalev comes over for a pre-season and dazzles us, but he has to go back to Russia for a year because he has one year left over there, then you can tell us how great our youth is. But don't insult us by telling us how great the kids are going to be when none of them have proven they'll even be NHL regulars.
There aren't much in your posts that I don't agree with. But I think we are looking at it from a diffrent perspective. I look at what Renney and the brass have done since the overhaul and what they have had to work with.

Our youth is terrible considering we missed the PO's for 7 straight years. I think our youth are looking really good considering the wasted 1st round picks we made for a stint and the fact that we never had any really high 1st rounders to start with.

If you look at were Lundqvist, Staal and Prucha were picked, and the fact that while they defenitly aren't on par with Richter, Leetch and Granato, its not bad that we have three guys like that.

When I look at Renney's job on the bench, I don't compare how NYR looks with NJD or Buffalo, since gooing into last season we had like 2 players that had been on the team gooing into the season before that, Purinton and Kasapar. We were a organization that didn't have anykind of identity. That takes time to build up. No chemistry and stability in the lockerroom. Very little chemistry on the ice between the players.

I expect Renney's job to start paying of 2-3 years from now. If we had a Ted Nolan behind the bench we might get more out of the team now, but I don't belive we would have had the same identity 3 years from now when JJ is gone that I envision we will have when Renney is through with the team.

Before this season I knew there were a good chance that we would miss the PO's, we are a all players no identity team, when thoose struggle they struggle bad, really bad. Though if that should be put on anyones account it should be on Glen Sather and the work he did with the team before the lockout, instead now its Tom Renney who is getting all the blame from everyone.

That pisses me of at times, Renney is a great hockey man, he have tremendous knowledge of the game, he did a really good job in setting up a organization that can develop the kids after beeing drafted before the lockout, and despite all the clowns we had here and who should be made responsible for the cluster**** we saw, its now Tom who gets to be the fall guy.

"People say that Andy Murray is the number 1 coach in Canada, if thats the case Tom Renney is 1A" -Bob Nicholsson (head of Hockey Canada)

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01-26-2007, 08:29 AM
  #35
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I expect Renney's job to start paying of 2-3 years from now. If we had a Ted Nolan behind the bench we might get more out of the team now, but I don't belive we would have had the same identity 3 years from now when JJ is gone that I envision we will have when Renney is through with the team.

Before this season I knew there were a good chance that we would miss the PO's, we are a all players no identity team, when thoose struggle they struggle bad, really bad. Though if that should be put on anyones account it should be on Glen Sather and the work he did with the team before the lockout, instead now its Tom Renney who is getting all the blame from everyone.

That pisses me of at times, Renney is a great hockey man, he have tremendous knowledge of the game, he did a really good job in setting up a organization that can develop the kids after beeing drafted before the lockout, and despite all the clowns we had here and who should be made responsible for the cluster**** we saw, its now Tom who gets to be the fall guy.

"People say that Andy Murray is the number 1 coach in Canada, if thats the case Tom Renney is 1A" -Bob Nicholsson (head of Hockey Canada)
Renney is not getting all the blame from me. The Edmonton Genius is at the top of the list of who got us into this hole, that we most likely won't be able to get out of for 5-10 years...more if Sather is still here in ten years.

But arguing that the Genius should be fired is futile. Dolan will never EVER get rid of him, we all know that.

Renney, however, is a different story. If nothing else, the Genuis has proven that he will eventually fire coaches, including himself. So naturally that's where we focus our attention.

Your constant defense of Renney is always regarding his playing of young players. OK, we can disagree on that one. But what about his other failings, which are specific to how he is running this team RIGHT NOW?

What about the fact that the power play is terrible, and has no identity whatsoever? What about the 'disjointed lines', as Shanahan put it? What about the team not giving a solid effort night in and night out? What about too often playing lazy, uninspired hockey for a period or two at a time? What about his treatment of Lundqvist in Toronto? What about him not being able to find a role for Prucha? What about selective accountability, the bizarre way he punishes some (Nylander, Prucha) while others get a free pass (Malik, etc.)? What about the fact that he has no hockey instincts, every decision he makes on the ice seems to blow up in his face?

Sather sucks yes. He's an idiot, a condescending jerk, and I don't believe he's the hardest working GM in all of hockey. His performance evaluation should say 'has hit rock bottom and shows signs of digging'. But he's not going anywhere. In ten years he'll still be here, burying our franchise further and further into the ground.

But that doesn't mean Renney doesn't suck too. He does.

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01-26-2007, 10:06 AM
  #36
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But what about his other failings, which are specific to how he is running this team RIGHT NOW?
Dave, inorder to have that discussion we must be on the same page when it comes to the players (how else can you judge a coach?), otherwise it will only become a apple and orange thing.

You clearly have a very diffrent opinion on this roster then I have. I just don't agree with you that this roster is a contending materia, you are defenitly tremendously overrating the players we do have. I think you need to watch other teams more in the NHL, games where the NYR doesn't play.

Rozival, Malik, Tyutin, Ward, Rachunek and Pck is hardly a impressive blueline.

Lundqvist have only been solid this year. Our 1st line only have 1 allstar on it, but is a great unit. Though the personelly through line 2-4 is hardly impressive.

You make it sound like its amazing that we are so shakey, and that its Renney's fault. I guess you are pretty new to the game, but you just can't expect much more from a roster like this. Especially since its only been together less then 2 years, playing against teams that have had the same core for 5-6 years, sometimes well over a decade.

Something I also have touched, is how long it takes for a coach to make a big impact. You just don't draw up a tactic 30 minutes before a game and plays like it. It takes 3-4 years to get a team well oiled.

And again, I also think you seriously are overrating the impact a coach have on his team. Guys like Tortorella, Hartley and Crawford have been mentioned as the best coaches in this league. If they had so much impact, how is it possible that Tampa is such a mediocre team this season? That Atlanta missed the PO's last season? That Vancouver missed the PO's last season?

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01-26-2007, 12:33 PM
  #37
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Dave, inorder to have that discussion we must be on the same page when it comes to the players (how else can you judge a coach?), otherwise it will only become a apple and orange thing.

You clearly have a very diffrent opinion on this roster then I have. I just don't agree with you that this roster is a contending materia, you are defenitly tremendously overrating the players we do have. I think you need to watch other teams more in the NHL, games where the NYR doesn't play.

Rozival, Malik, Tyutin, Ward, Rachunek and Pck is hardly a impressive blueline.

Lundqvist have only been solid this year. Our 1st line only have 1 allstar on it, but is a great unit. Though the personelly through line 2-4 is hardly impressive.

You make it sound like its amazing that we are so shakey, and that its Renney's fault. I guess you are pretty new to the game, but you just can't expect much more from a roster like this. Especially since its only been together less then 2 years, playing against teams that have had the same core for 5-6 years, sometimes well over a decade.

Something I also have touched, is how long it takes for a coach to make a big impact. You just don't draw up a tactic 30 minutes before a game and plays like it. It takes 3-4 years to get a team well oiled.

And again, I also think you seriously are overrating the impact a coach have on his team. Guys like Tortorella, Hartley and Crawford have been mentioned as the best coaches in this league. If they had so much impact, how is it possible that Tampa is such a mediocre team this season? That Atlanta missed the PO's last season? That Vancouver missed the PO's last season?
Well done, Ola, you once again typed a number of paragraphs about one particular subject, and completely avoided all the questions I asked.

The team is not constructed well. I agree, and think Sather should be fired for it, not only for how bad we are now, because we're virtually guaranteed to get worse every year going forward.

OK, having said that, it's actually possible to talk about Renney's coaching WITHOUT simply saying 'the roster isn't contending material'. While I agree with that, Renney is here to coach THIS team as it's put together NOW, and he's not doing a good job. Forget what the Rangers can be, deal with what they are, and ask yourself if Renney is doing a good job NOW. He's not. I cited a number of examples why, and there are a lot more.

Dismissing any critique of his coaching whatsoever, because the team isn't a Cup contender, is too simple. You can make the argument that a lot of people DID think the Rangers were Cup contenders in September, and you'll still find people here who say all we have to do is make the playoffs and you never know what can happen. See Edmonton Oilers, 2006.

The St. Louis Blues aren't Cup contenders, but that didn't keep them from firing Mike Kitchen. Look what Andy Murray has done there so far. Coaching matters.

Any coach should be judged on whether he's getting the maximum from what he's given, whether he's given the best group of players, or the 30th best group of players. You mentioned Tortorella, and he's a perfect example. He's obviously proven he can win a Stanley Cup, something Renney hasn't done quite yet.

One of the main reasons Tampa is a mediocre team this year is because they decided to devote so much of their cap space to the top three forwards (St. Louis, Lecavelier and Richards). They had to get rid of a lot of good players to keep those three, who make more than the top three players combined on any team in the league. Maybe that's why they're a mediocre team now. Or maybe it is Tortorella's coaching, I don't know, although I thought he did a pretty good job when we played down there last month. But the real question is, is Tortorella getting the most he possibly can out of his team right now? Same thing goes for Hartley now in Atlanta, and Crawford last year in Vancouver.

As far as Renney and the Rangers are concerned, I do expect more from a roster like this, or any group of 20 guys. I expect the coach to get the most out of them that he possibly can. I expect him to put them into the best possible position to win in every game. I expect him to find line combinations that work as well as they possibly can. I expect a solid effort night in and night out, win or lose. We haven't been getting any of these things from the Rangers, and these are problems that will always be there with Renney even if we somehow get a serious personnel upgrade.

Oh, and Ola if you can avoid condescending comments like 'I guess you are pretty new to the game', that would be awesome. A different opinion doesn't make you smarter than me, or anyone else.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I've been a Ranger fan since I first got into hockey in the late 70s, I was a season ticket holder from when I could finally afford them, in the mid 80s, until I moved a little too far from the city to make the commute to the games practical, in the early 90s.

I have the NHL Center Ice package, and watch a ton of games from all around the league. I'm also a season ticket holder for Princeton mens ice hockey. All this doesn't make me smarter than you, or anyone else, but it does prove I'm not 'new to the game'.

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01-26-2007, 02:16 PM
  #38
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dave4-

I agree, just because the roster is flawed you can't say that the coach is dooing a good job.

But, whats the idea of discussing Renney when you seem to belive that there are other coaches in this league who could make this team allot better, and somehow fix the flaws, and somehow ff our prospects a few years.

When I see our D's taking penaltys, I don't see players who aren't disciplined, I see players who are out of position, who aren't mobile enough.

When I see our PP suck, I see whats common knowledge when it comes to guys like Jagr and Pavel Bure, they are great players but to individual to run a great PP. Especially without a great point man.

And yes, coaching matters, though lets see how STL does over a longer period. NYI peak earlier could defenitly be credited Nolan, but lets evaluate him in 2 years instead. I think the results will be diffrent.

If I could pick anyone in this league to replace Renney, Andy Murray would be on the top of my list. Though I defenitly think it could be a helluva lot worse with othher coaches then Renney. Renney are building for the future on many aspects that aren't visible on a shift by shift basis. He is always in the ear of the kids teaching them. I love the system we plays, and the potential that got. I defenitly belive in that route.

We have had some terrible coaches here, at a time were we defenitly would have needed a kick ass defensive minded coach, I can defenitly understand people who longs for that after that. But I am 110% sure we don't need that, not now in this era. If we are gooing to build a team that can be successful in this era we need our own identity, a system were we are organized and plays a systematic offensive game, with allot of puckpossesion involved. Playing that way means small marginals, we are gooing to struggle at this point, if it weren't for Jagr, Nyls and Straka it would have been allot worse, but we at the same time defenitly needs a minimum level of talent to play that way, or else we would be chasing the puck all the time instead of practising the offensive aspects.

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01-26-2007, 02:32 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
dave4-

I agree, just because the roster is flawed you can't say that the coach is dooing a good job.

But, whats the idea of discussing Renney when you seem to belive that there are other coaches in this league who could make this team allot better, and somehow fix the flaws, and somehow ff our prospects a few years.

When I see our D's taking penaltys, I don't see players who aren't disciplined, I see players who are out of position, who aren't mobile enough.

When I see our PP suck, I see whats common knowledge when it comes to guys like Jagr and Pavel Bure, they are great players but to individual to run a great PP. Especially without a great point man.

And yes, coaching matters, though lets see how STL does over a longer period. NYI peak earlier could defenitly be credited Nolan, but lets evaluate him in 2 years instead. I think the results will be diffrent.

If I could pick anyone in this league to replace Renney, Andy Murray would be on the top of my list. Though I defenitly think it could be a helluva lot worse with othher coaches then Renney. Renney are building for the future on many aspects that aren't visible on a shift by shift basis. He is always in the ear of the kids teaching them. I love the system we plays, and the potential that got. I defenitly belive in that route.

We have had some terrible coaches here, at a time were we defenitly would have needed a kick ass defensive minded coach, I can defenitly understand people who longs for that after that. But I am 110% sure we don't need that, not now in this era. If we are gooing to build a team that can be successful in this era we need our own identity, a system were we are organized and plays a systematic offensive game, with allot of puckpossesion involved. Playing that way means small marginals, we are gooing to struggle at this point, if it weren't for Jagr, Nyls and Straka it would have been allot worse, but we at the same time defenitly needs a minimum level of talent to play that way, or else we would be chasing the puck all the time instead of practising the offensive aspects.
I'm not that hung up on what type of game we play, puck possession or whatever. I think if we find a coach who can motivate and get all the players working hard and headed in the right direction, the style will take care of itself.

Ironically one of the main reasons for not firing Renney, or not bothering to, is because he's such a terrible coach. The Edmonton Genius has proven he is totally incapable of picking the right coach for this team. After suffereing through Low, Trottier, and now Renney, I'm scared to think of who he may bring in next.

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01-26-2007, 03:54 PM
  #40
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Prucha>Malone, so there's no sense to this as a straight up deal, unless it has to do with a package that brings back a D and a Center, both of which NY need, not another winger.

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01-26-2007, 07:08 PM
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In my opinion, Prucha is the superior player.

Malone still has a little potential, but Prucha is a hard-working player, and Malone is having a dissapointing season, despite playing with Sidney Crosby, who is close to scoring at a 2 point per game pace.

Malone does have the potential to be a good power forward, but the lack of consistency and work ethic have hampered his development.

The safe bet is bet is Prucha. Malone is a boom or bust kind of player if you ask me, but I like Prucha's skillset. He's a pure finisher who is lightning quick, and isn't afraid to crash the net. You don't find many smallish and skilled Euros like him.

In conclusion, the only way I'd want to see Prucha traded is as a part of a packaged deal for a Young Franchise Center or Defender.

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01-26-2007, 08:05 PM
  #42
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I don't know if fair shot, but I don't think Dawes should play in the NHL this season. I don't think he would benefit from it. Lets say we cut him now, I wouldn't say he exactly were given a fair shot though.
How would Dawes NOT benefit from 10-12 minutes per night on the 3rd line? Better yet, what have the likes of Hossa or Ward or Hall shown that they are better served playing in that role in Nigel's place? Dawes played well. In his only chance to play on the 2nd line, he scored. Then, he found himself scratched for the next several games. Then he found himself playing 3 minutes, next to Orr. Then he was scratched for a handfull of games again. THAT is your idea of being given a fair chance?

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01-26-2007, 08:07 PM
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Totally unfair to imply losing a hockey game is making Ranger fans crazy. I think a lot of people would agree that losing lots hockey games would be OK IF we were properly building for the future. But we're not. We're losing with aging vets and a bunch of fourth liners playing in positions they shouldn't. And we're not improving.
Well put. No one (well, not that many of us) would care about loosing if there were signs that this team is moving on and preparing for the future.

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01-26-2007, 08:22 PM
  #44
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If Prucha goes to Pitt, he'll be a 40 goal scorer playing with Sid. Malone will never break 30 playing for us.

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01-27-2007, 05:14 AM
  #45
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How would Dawes NOT benefit from 10-12 minutes per night on the 3rd line? Better yet, what have the likes of Hossa or Ward or Hall shown that they are better served playing in that role in Nigel's place? Dawes played well. In his only chance to play on the 2nd line, he scored. Then, he found himself scratched for the next several games. Then he found himself playing 3 minutes, next to Orr. Then he was scratched for a handfull of games again. THAT is your idea of being given a fair chance?
Whats should matter is not if Dawes would benefit from playing 10 minutes on a 3rd line, what matters is where he will benefit the most, the AHL or the NHL, right?

Dawes by all accounts have potential, to become a 2nd line winger, and pretty much that only. In order to fullfil that role he also have to be able to produce allot, cause he will never beat out other players (Pyatt/Korpikoski) for roles as a complimentary player. While Dawes really plays with a ton of effort and cares about all aspects, his size and lack of pure speed don't make him very useful in his own end or in the transition game.

If he showed real promist in the offensive game, I defenitly would like to see him on atleast a 3rd line, so he can get accustomed to the NHL. Though he practically didn't get involved at all with the puck. Had he been able to take the puck up ice, challenge D's, win pucks on the forecheck, anything offensivly but just a few quick shots, I think things would have been diffrent.

You guys needs to face reality when it comes trying to stick subjects on Renney. Dawes have not yet scored over a PPG in the AHL, a league were Krog scored more then two PPG...

You gotta love Dawes attitude, his quickness, his nose for the net and how far he have come despite his size and everything. But, he clearly were up over his head in the NHL, and there is nothing wrong with keeping him in the AHL.

Everyone loves to compare how we are handling our kids with how other teams are handling theirs, why not compare Dawes to Jiri Hudler in Detroit?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...id%5B%5D=56969

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01-27-2007, 02:25 PM
  #46
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After watching todays game, I wouldn't move Prucha period.

Go Rangers.

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01-27-2007, 06:44 PM
  #47
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Whats should matter is not if Dawes would benefit from playing 10 minutes on a 3rd line, what matters is where he will benefit the most, the AHL or the NHL, right?
It is debateable if 10-12 minutes per night in the NHL is worse for you than 15-17 minutes per night at the AHL.
Quote:
Dawes by all accounts have potential, to become a 2nd line winger, and pretty much that only. In order to fullfil that role he also have to be able to produce allot, cause he will never beat out other players (Pyatt/Korpikoski) for roles as a complimentary player.
So does that mean that he has to be Crosby or Ovechkin and produce goals from go? You also need to be placed in a situation where you can succeed. 3 minutes per night, next to Orr is hardly such an example.
Quote:
While Dawes really plays with a ton of effort and cares about all aspects, his size and lack of pure speed don't make him very useful in his own end or in the transition game.
I have yet to see him have any issue in the transition game. In today's NHL, lack of size is not the detriment it once was.
Quote:
If he showed real promist in the offensive game, I defenitly would like to see him on atleast a 3rd line, so he can get accustomed to the NHL.
He did. Renney still saw fit NOT to play him on the 3rd line, but rather to scratch him or bury him on the 4th.
Quote:
Though he practically didn't get involved at all with the puck. Had he been able to take the puck up ice, challenge D's, win pucks on the forecheck, anything offensivly but just a few quick shots, I think things would have been diffrent.
It makes no difference how well he plays. Under Renney, unless a rookie steps onto the ice with the instant air of a veteran and instantly produces, he recieves no chance.
Quote:
You guys needs to face reality when it comes trying to stick subjects on Renney. Dawes have not yet scored over a PPG in the AHL, a league were Krog scored more then two PPG...
How many career games in the NHL does Krog have, as opposed to Dawes? Krog stands no chance at being a part of the future here, unlike Dawes. And are you really comparing a waiver-level player with one of the players whom some think IS a part of this team's future?
Quote:
But, he clearly were up over his head in the NHL, and there is nothing wrong with keeping him in the AHL.
You always say this, but the reality is that nothing could be further from the truth. Dawes exhibited no signs of being over his head. Renney exhibitted his typical lack of trust in anything other that 4th liner/waiver-trash players.
Quote:
Everyone loves to compare how we are handling our kids with how other teams are handling theirs, why not compare Dawes to Jiri Hudler in Detroit?
Do you really want to go down this road? Frankly, I could care less about Hudler, there are many more examples of youngsters being put into a position to succeeed, and not fail.

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01-28-2007, 12:29 PM
  #48
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As ATLANTARANGER said earlier....if we could find a way to get Orpik-Malik in this it would really spark some interest, at least from me

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