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Line combos (originated in mid-December 2013)

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Old
01-11-2014, 05:03 AM
  #26
Ryker
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Some are so eager to pry Raffl off of the first line, yet no one wants to consider breaking up Giroux and Voracek. Each of them is doing stuff on his own and they're not really making any amazing plays and feeding off one another. Also, it seems no matter who you put with them, the results thus far have been subpar (if you can count the results of the current first line subpar), no? Yet, it's Raffl that's the problem.

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Old
01-11-2014, 06:19 AM
  #27
BillDineen
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Even Strength Points Per Minute Multiplied by 60:

B. Schenn 2.17
Simmonds 2.04
Raffl 1.99
Giroux 1.88
Voracek 1.77
Read 1.73
Hartnell 1.58
Couturier 1.51
Downie 1.51
Lecavalier 1.46

I would keep the top two lines as they are for now until Raffl slumps. Finding Vinny a spot is the tough part.

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Old
01-14-2014, 05:02 PM
  #28
tymed
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The reason I have Voracek on the LW with Schenn on the RW is as Damaged Goods pointed out, He is the most natural and talented winger on the team.

Both are left handed shooters but unlike Brayden, Jake has the type of speed to go with his size that could prove to be successful in going up the left side on his forehand and wide around defenders. His hands are also a lot smoother than Brayden's which would help him break into the middle more effectively if the outside isn't available. Think of the success Raffl has had on the left side with his speed, sense, and puck tracking ability alone, then add some sheer talent and steroids and voila- this is how I see Voracek panning out on that side. Giroux is a right handed shooter and it's natural to move it up to the left side to a left handed winger. Again, Jakes speed is the better option there and also, as opposed to the earlier stages of his career he's developed a tendency to take the puck to the net which is easier on your forehand than backhand. Our 3rd and 4th line could really use Raffl's ability to check.

Schenn on the other hand is lacking the speed and hands to effectively break wide on his forehand or deke the defender to the inside. However, on the right side, I see him as an equal or more effective winger than Jake even is-- This is where i see his natural potential. Not many seem to be on board with my observation that about 99% of good plays Schenn makes come off the right hand boards. I've been watching it for a while and it's simply a fact at this point. The guy just gravitates to that side, uses his body very effectively on those boards and is arguably a better playmaker than Jake with better vision when engaged. He's great at cutting into the middle just over the blueline and makes a quicker pass than Jake when he does. He forces the play a little less as well and seems to like working his way up to the half boards from the corner using his body. He's a far better defensive player than Jake, though that still doesn't say a lot but this configuration could allow for cutting Jake a little loose.

All in all, while I think a Schenn-Giroux-Voracek line would be effective for many reasons, I can't help but see that a Voracek-Giroux-Schenn line does far more for maximization of the combo.

We're stuck with a pile of Centers and Right Wingers. Somethings gotta be done with it if nothings gonna be done about it.

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Old
01-15-2014, 02:22 AM
  #29
dats81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tymed View Post
The reason I have Voracek on the LW with Schenn on the RW is as Damaged Goods pointed out, He is the most natural and talented winger on the team.

Both are left handed shooters but unlike Brayden, Jake has the type of speed to go with his size that could prove to be successful in going up the left side on his forehand and wide around defenders...
Have you ever watched Voracek play?

Entering the zone with speed from right wing position, a little deke to the middle before finishing the play with a deadly snapshot are his special.

Playing our best RW out of position does not sound smart to me...

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Old
01-15-2014, 08:14 AM
  #30
Appleyard
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If it were me in charge:

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
VandeVelde-Hall-Downie

Timonen-Coburn
Grossmann-Streit
Schenn-Gustafsson

PP1:

Giroux-Hartnell-Simmonds
Streit-Voracek

PP2:

Couturier-Schenn-Lecavalier
Timonen-Read

PK1:
Couturier-Read
Timonen-Coburn

PK2:
Raffl-Hall
Grossmann-Schenn

Giroux, VDV extras.

I feel a bit dirty taking Schenn away from centre and LOD, as they have looked pretty great ... but giving him a prolonged chance on the 1st would be nice.

Lecavalier has shown he is 10x better at centre than wing, and can actually play centre instead of messing around on the wing, then taking the centres job for a while, then deciding nah, he wants to be a winger again when they get back to the zone.

The third would be hell to play against and be a good way to utilize all three players.

The fourth has three guys who can all play hockey on it. Shock horror.

The PP needs a shake up... switching Kimmo and Streit would hopefully give them a jolt, there is not much more jiggling that can be done in terms of personnel on the PP, Raffl is the only other forward in the lineup atm who seems even semi capable of playing PP... and Gus and Coburn are the only two D who can really.

Our PK is awesome... don't touch it!


Last edited by Appleyard: 01-15-2014 at 08:29 AM.
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Old
01-15-2014, 08:19 AM
  #31
Curufinwe
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If they don't want to move BSchenn to wing I would think about swapping Voracek and Vinny. This would get our best passer and our best shooter together, and the Couturier-Lecavalier combo is clearly struggling.

Voracek isn't great defensively either, but he's better than Vinny, and a lot faster. I think a Read-Couturier-Voracek line would be really hard for teams to handle. Coots and Read get more ES TOI/G than Voracek right now and are a third line in name only, so it wouldn't be a demotion.

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Old
01-15-2014, 09:33 AM
  #32
tymed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
Have you ever watched Voracek play?

Entering the zone with speed from right wing position, a little deke to the middle before finishing the play with a deadly snapshot are his special.

Playing our best RW out of position does not sound smart to me...
I've been following Jake his whole career including juniors actually. I watch 9/10 Flyers games. I can see that you only read a couple of sentences I posted.

Jake is our best natural winger forsure but using what we call points and examples I suggested that Brayden looks equal or even better off that side than he does tbh--while also suggesting that Voracek seems far more equipped than Brayden to work the left side, both being left handed shots. All I said was that to me a Jake/G/Schenn combo > Schenn/Jake/G combo, it maximizes the efficiency of this 1 (one) particular unit, although I believe both ways you put it, give us a legitimate top line.

I'll just use this opportunity also to point out that Voracek doesn't exactly have a deadly snap shot, nor would I call this "specialty" you're suggesting as being very special. Schenn for me makes that play slightly better than he does on average -- While Jake, according to skillset, would beat Brayden on the LW in most facets of the position by a long shot. I base my opinions entirely off of what I see taking place on the ice.

Jake's surpassed 20 goals once so far and this is his 6th season. While his shot made great strides last year, he's never been a shooter or had a good shot by standard of comparison. 13 goals and 37 points in 47 is extremely underwhelming to me for someone who gets as much offensive opportunity as he does, esp while being average at best defensively. B.Schenn produces more than him at ES. It definitely doesn't warrant saying that his spot is incontestable in any way . Again, all Im saying that there a lot of reasons to believe that Schenn would be fairing the same or at least a little better in Jakes shoes, and that Jake would be fairing a lot better in Braydens shoes than Brayden does (referring to when he is on the LW and not C).

Have you ever watched Brayden Schenn play? Because to me it does sound smart to try Jake on the Left side and potentially solving our 1st line LW problem, all while potentially maximizing Schenn for us and Im certain he'd have more than 33 points in Jakes skates this season. More reason to believe so than not. Im not sure how much simpler I can communicate my point and observation here. I appreciate your reply but please read my entire posts if you're going to quote me again.


Last edited by tymed: 01-15-2014 at 09:42 AM.
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Old
01-15-2014, 10:34 AM
  #33
dats81
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I agree that Jake is our most skilled winger but I just don't see him thrive on the left side. Berube has already briefly tried him there earlier this season when nothing else would click and he looked lost out there.

If possible, they should avoid having players play out of their natural position.
Brayden Schenn is a natural center but he has also shown some promise when used as a LW. That's fine and leads to more options in regard to the lineup. i just wanted to raise the question why both Voracek and Schenn should be asked to play out of position?

You seem to be convinced putting together a Voracek/G/Schenn line would create a superior first line but other than your personal observations and the fact that all three are very talented players there is no evidence for that assumption. No offense! Just my two cents...


Last edited by dats81: 01-15-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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Old
01-15-2014, 05:18 PM
  #34
laundryman
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I'd like to see

Voracek - Giroux - Vinny
Hartnell - Schenn - Simmonds
Raffl/Downie - Couturier - Read
McGinn - Hall - Downie/Raffl

Coburn - Kimmo
Grossmann - Streit
Gus - Luke

Mason

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Old
01-16-2014, 09:40 AM
  #35
tymed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
I agree that Jake is our most skilled winger but I just don't see him thrive on the left side. Berube has already briefly tried him there earlier this season when nothing else would click and he looked lost out there.

If possible, they should avoid having players play out of their natural position.
Brayden Schenn is a natural center but he has also shown some promise when used as a LW. That's fine and leads to more options in regard to the lineup. i just wanted to raise the question why both Voracek and Schenn should be asked to play out of position?

You seem to be convinced putting together a Voracek/G/Schenn line would create a superior first line but other than your personal observations and the fact that all three are very talented players there is no evidence for that assumption. No offense! Just my two cents...

Well naturally no, you wouldn't expect a RW to thrive on the left wing. But we don't have the pieces there, Hartnell being our only "natural" top 9 winger. I was suggesting that looks like his skillset would be able to soften the blow if you will with more efficiency than anyone else being shoved over there. I would take the results of line tinkering from the beginning of this season with a grain of salt and Im sure anyone could assume why, no? The whole team was lost being in an arena to begin with.

Im not 100% convinced that trio would be the one that does it for us ... But I suggested this same thing a while back when G/Jake were on a tear that it was only a matter of time until they were ice cold at ES and here we are again, ofcourse. Those 2 simply don't have good natural chemistry the way theyre sitting.

Brayden has shown some promise on the Left side you're right, but he was stuck there and he's got plenty of skill to make use of wherever he's but but is lacking that outside speed (which is my most important point about Jake) you need to be more successful winger on your forehand especially in todays game, have you ever been in a game to realize this for yourself?

As I said, it'd be nice if we had any good left wingers but we don't so Im just putting forward my best argument for how to maximize the efficiency of the pieces that we do have regardless of their "natural" positions. Giroux's natural position is as a RW too, but as you can see....

We need to find some real pairs and/or combos with real chemistry or we're going to stick in mediocrity with what we have. G with Jake on the right aren't one of these pairs. The chem isn't there at the level im talking about and suggesting it needs to be at as our go-to guys.

I guess for the record so that there's no confusion I do feel that Schenn has slightly more potential on the RW than Jake does, and that Jake would blow Schenn outta the water off the left side. This is the basis of it all.

"Natural" Positions of our top-9'er guys:

C-Schenn, Couturier, Vinny
RW-Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, Downie
LW-Hartnell

Some things either gotta give or go, hopefully we find something that works atleast warm and not so hot and cold. Gs skill on the PP likely takes care of it from that point.


Last edited by tymed: 01-17-2014 at 01:50 AM.
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Old
01-16-2014, 12:15 PM
  #36
tuckrr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
Have you ever watched Voracek play?

Entering the zone with speed from right wing position, a little deke to the middle before finishing the play with a deadly snapshot are his special.

Playing our best RW out of position does not sound smart to me...
You know, I actually agree with him..maybe in a vacuum voracek should be on the right, but as a unit that line would do better with him on the left. We haven't had someone go wide left since playoff jvr.

I'd consider G Schenn Voracek if we really wanted to maximize the line. B schenn would be way over ppg into, and he needs to improve face offs one day!

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