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Old
01-15-2014, 08:35 AM
  #926
devilsblood
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
Really? Care to explain? Do you say that from a rules perspective (not clearly called out per the rules) or from a hockey philosophy perspective (don't mind kicked/deflected goals at all)?

I personally think if the skate is moving towards the net at all to propel the puck into the net (wouldn't have gone in if not for the foot motion) then it should be disallowed. The only exception is a stopping motion by the player where the puck never changes angle/direction. Stationary skates deflecting pucks in would count of course as well. I just think there's too much intent allowed to use the foot to score a goal period the way the rule is now. "distinct kicking motion" should be "any motion propelling the puck to the net" imo. It would eliminate a lot of the gray area and get rid of some of the double standard where you can find a "good goal" that was allowed that looks worse than some that were disallowed.

But then I'd get rid of the damn loser point, trapezoid, and delay of game for puck over the glass rules too and institute a 1 pt for shootout win, and have a faceoff in your own zone a man short rather than a penalty for a puck over the glass.
I thought as per rules, it should be allowed. That was not a kicking motion.

Philosophically speaking, I'd like to see it stand as well. I think the rules which people take as foundationally sound, lend towards goals being allowed in such fashion.

1)Players are allowed to use their skates to move the puck for normal play away from the goal. Kick it, deflect it, stop it, whatever, it's allowed.

2)The puck is allowed to go off the skate,(or the leg, or arm whatever) and into the net. And this includes deflections which are intentional, but do not require movement of the skate.

Not only does this combination of rules ask for gray area/controversial goals but imo they do not align logically.

Factor in the fact that kick in goals are pretty rare and the league in general is looking to boost offense, I'd be willing to just say eff it, let em kick goals in. Or at least see it in a beta version in some minor league, to make sure it doesn't lead to a HUGE influx of intentional kick in goals.

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01-15-2014, 08:45 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by devilsblood View Post
I'd be willing to just say eff it, let em kick goals in. Or at least see it in a beta version in some minor league, to make sure it doesn't lead to a HUGE influx of intentional kick in goals.
My understanding was that the "kicking motion" rule was for player safety. If that's the case, I can see it. But, I think the rest of your points are supported - the intention of the rule isn't to limit goals, it's to make sure people aren't kicking at the goaltender. That says to me that unless it's a blatant kick, goals should be allowed.

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Old
01-15-2014, 08:46 AM
  #928
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I would disallow everything. if it goes off a skate, its no goal, end of story. harsh? maybe. but at least its consistent

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01-15-2014, 08:50 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by BrodeursCups View Post
That Gelinas shot. Mercy....
You mean DAT shot?

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Old
01-15-2014, 08:52 AM
  #930
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Originally Posted by KaossKing View Post
I would disallow everything. if it goes off a skate, its no goal, end of story. harsh? maybe. but at least its consistent
yeah it has to be more black and white than the current rule, theres still too many questionable goals being counted or disallowed
Maybe they can have it this way:
If a skate is in the crease, and the puck goes off it and in..no goal
if the skate is outside the crease it will count
at least that way the replay will be conclusive, instead of someones "opinion"

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Old
01-15-2014, 08:54 AM
  #931
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I wonder what flex he's using on that RBZ? I'm guessing 110 at minimum. Probably higher with the velocity he's getting.
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Originally Posted by Henrique Iglesias View Post
Probably more than that, maybe around 120+

Makes me feel like a ***** with my 85 flexes.
He's 6'4" so probably 120+ because of his shaft length (wouldn't be cut down much).

Quote:
For every 2 inches you cut off the end of the stick, you will increase the flex by 7 ±1, an 85 flex stick cut down 2 inches will now be a 92 ±1 flex hockey stick.
Plus flex helps boost the power with the whip effect so he wants some of it still there. No flex takes power out of your shot.

Remember he's 6' 4" and weighs 210 lbs and is in hella good shape (read strong). He needs that stiffness because of how big and heavy he is shooting with power. If you're 5' 10", 180 and don't work out regularly and cut off 3" from your 85 flex stick you are essentially shooting with the same rating he is after you do the math for your strength.

So don't feel like a wimp. And don't buy a 110 flex and cut 3" of it then expect to shoot harder in the beer league.

http://youtu.be/yL4m7h39DCo?t=3m35s

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Old
01-15-2014, 08:56 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
My understanding was that the "kicking motion" rule was for player safety. If that's the case, I can see it. But, I think the rest of your points are supported - the intention of the rule isn't to limit goals, it's to make sure people aren't kicking at the goaltender. That says to me that unless it's a blatant kick, goals should be allowed.
Did not know it was a safety issue. And if that is the case then I'm cool with skate staying on the ice amendment.

Though I do wonder that if goalie safety issue comes from way back when goalies wore relatively little padding and has since become outdated.

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Originally Posted by KaossKing View Post
I would disallow everything. if it goes off a skate, its no goal, end of story. harsh? maybe. but at least its consistent
Nah, this league does not need less goals, and certainly not more disallowed goals.

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Old
01-15-2014, 09:04 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
He's 6'4" so probably 120+ because of his shaft length (wouldn't be cut down much).



Plus flex helps boost the power with the whip effect so he wants some of it still there. No flex takes power out of your shot.

Remember he's 6' 4" and weighs 210 lbs and is in hella good shape (read strong). He needs that stiffness because of how big and heavy he is shooting with power. If you're 5' 10", 180 and don't work out regularly and cut off 3" from your 85 flex stick you are essentially shooting with the same rating he is after you do the math for your strength.

So don't feel like a wimp. And don't buy a 110 flex and cut 3" of it then expect to shoot harder in the beer league.

http://youtu.be/yL4m7h39DCo?t=3m35s

After not playing for nearly two decades and now jumping back into the world of composite sticks, this flex business has me a bit confused.

I thought the idea of the flex, and thus the whip, was to increase velocity. I personally have not gotten comfortable with the more flex sticks. Especially on ice with the heavier puck(as opposed to roller which I play more often and with a wood shaft) i feel the more flex sticks are flopping about on me.

Got a graf composite with a 110 flex for pretty cheap like 70% off(I think because of the low flex, everyone seems to want more) and have really liked it. Better control, and a better shot, or at least a more consistent shot.

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Old
01-15-2014, 09:10 AM
  #934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsblood View Post
After not playing for nearly two decades and now jumping back into the world of composite sticks, this flex business has me a bit confused.

I thought the idea of the flex, and thus the whip, was to increase velocity. I personally have not gotten comfortable with the more flex sticks. Especially on ice with the heavier puck(as opposed to roller which I play more often and with a wood shaft) i feel the more flex sticks are flopping about on me.

Got a graf composite with a 110 flex for pretty cheap like 70% off(I think because of the low flex, everyone seems to want more) and have really liked it. Better control, and a better shot, or at least a more consistent shot.
This is why.

Flex = power. correct.

85 = low flex rating (85 lbs of force) to deflect it 1 inch
110 = high flex rating (110 lbs of force) to deflect it 1 inch

You have been mixing up rating with actual amount of flex. Low # = more flex.

That's all. I bet if you roll out with an 85 rated stick you'd feel like you're getting more power on your shot (especially wristers). Dunno about you but I almost never get a slapshot chance during games any more. Wrist and snappers at most.

*edit
FYI - Brett Hull used a 67 flex rating and he was 200lbs. He got all that power from a super whippy stick.

Think of it as a STIFFNESS rating rather than a flex amount and you will be better off.

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Old
01-15-2014, 09:17 AM
  #935
devilsblood
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
This is why.

Flex = power. correct.

85 = low flex rating (85 lbs of force) to deflect it 1 inch
110 = high flex rating (110 lbs of force) to deflect it 1 inch

You have been mixing up rating with actual amount of flex. Low # = more flex.

That's all. I bet if you roll out with an 85 rated stick you'd feel like you're getting more power on your shot (especially wristers). Dunno about you but I almost never get a slapshot chance during games any more. Wrist and snappers at most.

FYI - Brett Hull used a 67 flex rating and he was 200lbs. He got all that power from a super whippy stick.
I think I had the concept down even if I'm using the terminology wrong.

So let me ask it like this.

I thought the point of the whip was to provide added velocity? If that is not the point, then what is the point of the whip?

And I play the point, so I get a fair amount of slap shot ops.

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01-15-2014, 09:19 AM
  #936
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
Think of it as a STIFFNESS rating rather than a flex amount and you will be better off.
Good way to look at it.

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Old
01-15-2014, 09:26 AM
  #937
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You said you got a 110 rated stick. That's stiff - especially if you cut it down which increases the stiffness. If you aren't getting the velocity you want/expect because you aren't getting the flex/whip, then go down in rating.

*edit

I re-read your issue - sounds like the high rating is fine for you. Slappers and accuracy. 110 is where you should be it sounds like.


Last edited by Richer's Ghost: 01-15-2014 at 09:30 AM. Reason: misread your problem
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Old
01-15-2014, 09:32 AM
  #938
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My bad, b4 the Graf I was using a low end Reebok composite(14k), with an 85 flex, and that thing was floppy. And not just shooting, but receiving passes or just digging/puck whacking.

The 110 Graf has felt much nicer.

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01-15-2014, 10:13 AM
  #939
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Originally Posted by Semak View Post
I wanted to talk about Fayne's game as well. He's in a groove now and I was thinking while watching how well he was pinching. Also, he's getting a lot more looks from the circle. He's moving his legs more than he was.
You can tell who Jagr will avoid passing to on D if he absolutely does not have to, but Fayne has been one of the guys he's liked going to and seems to trust - rightfully so

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01-15-2014, 10:27 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by KaossKing View Post
I would disallow everything. if it goes off a skate, its no goal, end of story. harsh? maybe. but at least its consistent
i like one extreme or the other as well.

It just removes any gray area.

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01-15-2014, 10:27 AM
  #941
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Current D play for me has been:

Greene, Fayne, Zids, Volch, Gelinas, Merrill/Sal tied for last. I give Gelinas the slight nod only because he's been given OT minutes and has contributed on the O.

I think it should be obvious that Merrill has had his taste but Larsson would be an upgrade. He should swap in for JM. Sal needs to at least be demoted to third pairing.

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Old
01-15-2014, 10:52 AM
  #942
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They will never allow kicking motion goals, huge safety issue. You do not want guys with razor sharp skates kicking at the puck....see clint malarchuk if you nwanna see the damage a skate can do. Now i know they wear neck guards and that his injury wasn't from a kicking motion but that video will ever be edged in the minds of everyone when it comes to skates and goalies

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Old
01-15-2014, 10:58 AM
  #943
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I'm glad that Fayne's game was recognized because he absolutely deserved it. He's been getting a lot more grief on this board than I think has been warranted. Hopefully this means he has cemented his lineup spot whenever the D is fully healthy.

Now as big of a Sal apologist as I am, I know that he has been struggling mightily as of late. I expected it out of this game, though. Montreal is a young and fast team and I figured he would struggle with keeping up. Still, I think he is usually more solid and his play will even out but I am heavily biased. If I had it my way:

Greene-Fayne
Gelinas-Larsson
Zids-Sal/Volch

I have to give credit where credit is due, Volch has looked much better this season.

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Old
01-15-2014, 11:37 AM
  #944
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I find the 30 shots against number a bit fishy. It didn't really seem like we were under siege as much as that number would have you believe.

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01-15-2014, 12:18 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I find the 30 shots against number a bit fishy. It didn't really seem like we were under siege as much as that number would have you believe.
Its funny you say that I was at the game and the MTL shot count made no sense, in the first 3 minutes of the game NJ had all the puck possession and MTL had maybe 1 dump in yet they were outshooting NJ 3-1. Through the hole game we would look up at the shots and it seems MTL kept getting shots when it would go wide or blocked.

And as for the no goal the camera went on to Gallagher at the bell center when they were reviewing it and he turned to whoever it was and said "I kicked it".

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01-15-2014, 01:47 PM
  #946
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Originally Posted by devilsblood View Post
I thought as per rules, it should be allowed. That was not a kicking motion.

Philosophically speaking, I'd like to see it stand as well. I think the rules which people take as foundationally sound, lend towards goals being allowed in such fashion.

1)Players are allowed to use their skates to move the puck for normal play away from the goal. Kick it, deflect it, stop it, whatever, it's allowed.

2)The puck is allowed to go off the skate,(or the leg, or arm whatever) and into the net. And this includes deflections which are intentional, but do not require movement of the skate.

Not only does this combination of rules ask for gray area/controversial goals but imo they do not align logically.

Factor in the fact that kick in goals are pretty rare and the league in general is looking to boost offense, I'd be willing to just say eff it, let em kick goals in. Or at least see it in a beta version in some minor league, to make sure it doesn't lead to a HUGE influx of intentional kick in goals.
It was a slew foot type kicking motion, but was a deliberate kicking motion. If you watch you see that he knows its coming. He tried to make it legit like "whoops hey I was just turning" but when you analyze it he was deliberate and trying to pull a fast one.

The goal the other day in Toronto was a legit goal that was waved off. We should have lost that one in regulation, very lucky to get a point out of that game. It was a gift.

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Old
01-15-2014, 06:18 PM
  #947
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I find the 30 shots against number a bit fishy. It didn't really seem like we were under siege as much as that number would have you believe.
That second period was a mess. Marty was outstanding.

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01-15-2014, 06:20 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I find the 30 shots against number a bit fishy. It didn't really seem like we were under siege as much as that number would have you believe.
We got shelled after the disallowed goal. I'm surprised we didn't lose 6-4, Marty was the difference.

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01-15-2014, 06:32 PM
  #949
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That second period was a mess. Marty was outstanding.
Yup. We were outshot by quite a bit in period 2 and it really showed. We didn't give them too much in the 3rd though.

According to the game center app, Marty stopped faced 7 PP shots and 2 shorthanded shots. We probably allowed more PP shots than we do on average. I think Cory only faced 3 PP shots on Saturday night according to the 3 stars selection on the game center app.

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01-15-2014, 10:43 PM
  #950
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You can tell who Jagr will avoid passing to on D if he absolutely does not have to, but Fayne has been one of the guys he's liked going to and seems to trust - rightfully so
Good point. I'll keep an eye out for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I find the 30 shots against number a bit fishy. It didn't really seem like we were under siege as much as that number would have you believe.
I was shocked when Chico said that Marty had made 29 saves. Just didn't seem like it.

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