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01-15-2014, 10:23 AM
  #76
NYR Viper
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Sather seems to find these guys quite often. That wouldn't be the problem. I worry about the effect it would have on the locker room. Boyle loves the team, the city, his team mates. He's not commanding a big raise.

Look at the effect losing Prust, Rupp, and Dubinsky had.

We need more grit, if anything.
I understand that, but if they aren't going to re-sign him, why lose him for nothing? That's extremely short sighted.

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01-15-2014, 10:24 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
This has always been my issue with him. Anytime he scores it's pure luck and happenstance. I said that during his amazing 20 goal yr as well.

He is what he is. Don't expect any, ANY offense and he's ok.
You do realize he was drafted and began his career as a defensive defenseman. He played defense during his time at BC.

I know he scored 20 goals one season but I don't understand how anyone has that expectation of him. That's not his skillset.

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01-15-2014, 10:28 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I understand that, but if they aren't going to re-sign him, why lose him for nothing? That's extremely short sighted.
But why has the worry shifted to not being able to retain some of these guys? We're not financially strapped. Actually, we'll have like 35 mill available if we cut Richards. Understandably, some of our guys will get raises and that figure will likely be closer to 15 mill or so, but that's a lot of room to maneuver with regardless.

We can afford to keep them, we don't have constraints on our cap this season. I don't think it's a problem, for this particular offseason with our crop of potential free agents.

I do think that the problem is organizational plan and direction. I think the f.o doesn't have one. They throw mud on the wall and hope it sticks. They need to decide if they're going to try and win it all in the next 3 years and then blow it all up, or try and do a mini fire sale and retool as they go (like the Penguins do).

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01-15-2014, 10:31 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
But why has the worry shifted to not being able to retain some of these guys? We're not financially strapped. Actually, we'll have like 35 mill available if we cut Richards. Understandably, some of our guys will get raises and that figure will likely be closer to 15 mill or so, but that's a lot of room to maneuver with regardless.

We can afford to keep them, we don't have constraints on our cap this season. I don't think it's a problem, for this particular offseason with our crop of potential free agents.

I do think that the problem is organizational plan and direction. I think the f.o doesn't have one. They throw mud on the wall and hope it sticks. They need to decide if they're going to try and win it all in the next 3 years and then blow it all up, or try and do a mini fire sale and retool as they go (like the Penguins do).
Because signing Boyle for anything close to, or above his current contract would be overpayment for a player who scores 20-25 points.

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01-15-2014, 10:33 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Because signing Boyle for anything close to, or above his current contract would be overpayment for a player who scores 20-25 points.
Judging players on pure goal scoring ability seems to be what has gotten us in this mess, no?

We all thought (myself included) that giving Prust 4 million was gross overpayment...

You can't quantify what glue guys offer in terms of dollars. They have underrated importance. We should learn from our past mistakes.

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01-15-2014, 10:40 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
You do realize he was drafted and began his career as a defensive defenseman. He played defense during his time at BC.

I know he scored 20 goals one season but I don't understand how anyone has that expectation of him. That's not his skillset.
No, he started as a forward and played some defense his senior year in college because that's what the team needed. The kings tried at one point to convert him to defense but it didn't work. Go back and check the 2003 draft. He was listed as a center.

I'm not expecting Boyle to produce a lot offensively. I realize what he brings to this team. But he is going to get a raise, however small, and as good as he is defensively and on faceoffs, he brings nothing offensively. Oscar Lindberg is very good defensively and very good on faceoffs. If he can bring even a little more offense at a cheaper price, we are better served by playing him over Boyle.

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Old
01-15-2014, 10:41 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Judging players on pure goal scoring ability seems to be what has gotten us in this mess, no?

We all thought (myself included) that giving Prust 4 million was gross overpayment...

You can't quantify what glue guys offer in terms of dollars. They have underrated importance. We should learn from our past mistakes.
Yes you can. By overpyaing your "glue" guys, it nullifies any chance of add actual talent.

The Rangers overpayed for a glue guy in Drury. Worked out well.

Prust is grossly overpaid.

If an organization can't replace Brian Boyle, there is something wrong in the system.

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01-15-2014, 10:41 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
So when you throw out the season Stepan had last year as an "aberration" it's fine, but when others throw out Setoguchi's 30 goal season -- which he's now 2 teams and 4 years removed from -- that's where you draw the line?
Stepan had his stellar year over 48 games

Seto had his over 82

Try again

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01-15-2014, 10:42 AM
  #84
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I love Boyle but would be all for trading him. He'd bring back a much better return than some would think.

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01-15-2014, 10:43 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoHitTheNetJK View Post
Stepan had his stellar year over 48 games

Seto had his over 82

Try again
The point still stands. Seto's season was an aberration.

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01-15-2014, 10:45 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
The point still stands. Seto's season was an aberration.
Undoubtedly. I'm not advocating getting him here to score 30 goals. If he can chip in 20-25 goals and play physical and get under the skin of the opposition he's extremely effective. Would I rather have Andrew Ladd in that deal? sure.. I was trying to think of a package WPG would realistically give up. Maybe make our conditional 1st a conditional 3rd if Girardi resigns. What other forwards do they have that we could use?

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Old
01-15-2014, 10:46 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoHitTheNetJK View Post
Stepan had his stellar year over 48 games

Seto had his over 82

Try again
Let's look at year to year progression:

2013-2014
Stepan (Age 23)
28 points in 48 games

Seto (Age 27)
21 points in 47 games



2012-2013
Stepan (Age 22)
44 points in 48 games

Seto (Age 26)
27 points in 48 games



2011-2012
Stepan (age 21)
51 ponts in 82 games

Seto (Age 25)
36 points in 69 games



2010-2011
Stepan (Age 20)
45 points in 82 games

Seto (Age 24)
41 points in 72 games


Interesting...

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Old
01-15-2014, 10:52 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Let's look at year to year progression:

2013-2014
Stepan (Age 23)
28 points in 48 games

Seto (Age 27)
21 points in 47 games



2012-2013
Stepan (Age 22)
44 points in 48 games

Seto (Age 26)
27 points in 48 games



2011-2012
Stepan (age 21)
51 ponts in 82 games

Seto (Age 25)
36 points in 69 games



2010-2011
Stepan (Age 20)
45 points in 82 games

Seto (Age 24)
41 points in 72 games


Interesting...
All that does is show how similar in production each player has been. It also conveniently doesn't take into account Setoguchi's best statistical season while of course it takes Stepan's into account. Does Seto's year not count because Stepan wasn't in the league yet? Seto also gets considerably less ice time/PP than Stepan and doesn't play with Nash and Kreider

Again.. it's not about Setoguchi. I'm not trying to compare him to Stepan. He's a throw in for Byfuglien in that proposal. Our fanbase would love him after a few games; he's a gritty hard working player that will increase his point totals with more ice time

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01-15-2014, 10:54 AM
  #89
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Lindberg isn't even in the same ballpark when it comes to faceoffs and defensive play.

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01-15-2014, 10:54 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoHitTheNetJK View Post
All that does is show how similar in production each player has been. It also conveniently doesn't take into account Setoguchi's best statistical season while of course it takes Stepan's into account. Does Seto's year not count because Stepan wasn't in the league yet? Seto also gets considerably less ice time/PP than Stepan and doesn't play with Nash and Kreider

Again.. it's not about Setoguchi. I'm not trying to compare him to Stepan. He's a throw in for Byfuglien in that proposal. Our fanbase would love him after a few games; he's a gritty hard working player that will increase his point totals with more ice time
There's nothing convenient about it. You are conveniently just dismissing the following 5 seasons as aberrations and just showing his rookie year as what he has to offer. He has shown over quite a few years to not be able to bring that anymore.

On top of that, he has been traded twice already. If he was so good, wouldn't teams want to hang onto him?

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Old
01-15-2014, 10:58 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
There's nothing convenient about it. You are conveniently just dismissing the following 5 seasons as aberrations and just showing his rookie year as what he has to offer. He has shown over quite a few years to not be able to bring that anymore.

On top of that, he has been traded twice already. If he was so good, wouldn't teams want to hang onto him?
I've said about 10 times in this thread I'm not expecting him to score 30 goals.

And that notion has been busted apart so many times. Jagr was traded twice, I guess he's terrible too

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01-15-2014, 10:58 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Yes you can. By overpyaing your "glue" guys, it nullifies any chance of add actual talent.

The Rangers overpayed for a glue guy in Drury. Worked out well.

Prust is grossly overpaid.

If an organization can't replace Brian Boyle, there is something wrong in the system.
I don't think Montreal would consider him overpaid. He's brought a lot to their team.

I'm not considering Drury a glue guy. They paid him as if he was a sniper. Sather is horrific was free agent signings.

He's paid 1.7 now? Let's say he gets 2.5 for 3 years. The 800,000 extra is going to hurt us get actual talent?

Trading him for a 1st is excellent value. It would be. But then we open up more holes. We paid 2 2nd's to get a guy like Clowe last year for like 15 games. The Devil's overpaid for him. The Habs overpaid for Prust. The Stars overpaid for Avery. The key would be to draft and groom these players and not have to worry about gross overpayments and such but for some reason we have an inability to do so.

Let's say we trade Boyle for a 1st. McIlrath never gets on AV's good side and is never played. Carcillo walks after this year. Lindberg takes Boyle's spot. Let's say we trade Callahan for some offensive prospects.

Our ability as a team to play a grind it out game is nearly completely diminished. We would be relying on Derek Dorsett to be our enforcer, grind it out guy, and glue guy.

Trading Boyle opens up a hole. We don't have a replacement for him in our farm. Maybe, maybe Kantor, but he's such a long shot it's not even a viable consideration.

We'll have to overpay for an aging guy like Clowe one offseason or overpay via trade like we did for Clowe. Either way we're overpaying.

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01-15-2014, 11:00 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Lindberg isn't even in the same ballpark when it comes to faceoffs and defensive play.
You'd be surprised. He could be a a very useful 3rd line center one day.

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01-15-2014, 11:04 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
You'd be surprised. He could be a a very useful 3rd line center one day.
I've watched him plenty. He is not.

One day ya maybe. But right now he is not even close.

Getting rid of Boyle thinking lindberg could step in and be just as good next season is a massive leap of faith and just not supported by lindbergs current play.

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01-15-2014, 11:06 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
I've watched him plenty. He is not.

One day ya maybe. But right now he is not even close.

Getting rid of Boyle thinking lindberg could step in and be just as good next season is a massive leap of faith and just not supported by lindbergs current play.
It will take some time.

I'm not in favor for that switch either.

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01-15-2014, 11:08 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by DelZottoHitTheNetJK View Post
Stepan had his stellar year over 48 games

Seto had his over 82

Try again
That's entirely irrelevant, but nice try. As if somehow Stepan would have stopped scoring over the next 48 games. Even if he reverts to his .6 PPG pace he established in his sophomore season, he still finishes the year with a better total that Setoguchi's one good season.

Your "argument" is that you can somehow see that Stepan is "regressing" -- which of course you championed at this time last season as well before he went on to be the leading scorer on the team -- while nobody else can, and yet you blindly ignore the fact that Setoguchi has never even remotely come close to those point totals again in 4 years.

Facts vs opinion and projection. Now I'm sure you'll counter with some bogus argument about Setoguchi not being given favorable minutes, and Stepan gets to play with Nash and Kreider. All while ignoring the fact that Setoguchi's best year came from playing on a line with one of the best playmaking centers in the NHL

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01-15-2014, 11:12 AM
  #97
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I think you are all viewing this a little too short term in terms of Stepan's slump.

We have Stepan who is a good #2 two way center on a bad day, and a 1B on a good day. We have Brassard who is a decent 2nd/3rd line center offensively, adds to the PP, is affordable and clicks with Zuccarello. He stinks at faceoffs and defense.

So what we need with the departure of Richards is not a top line center, it is a good defensive center who can ship in 40 points and win faceoffs. You could go in for Stastny, but he'd be expensive and you'd have the same problem of splitting offensive opportunities amongst 3 centers.

I think the guy I'd want is David Legwand. He isn't a spring chicken but he isn't washed up, either. He's improved on draws and is consistently over 50% this year.

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Old
01-15-2014, 11:22 AM
  #98
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If the Rangers are in a playoff position come the deadline I would like to see these moves (for players currently on the Rangers roster):

- Resign Girardi 4 years $6/year.
- Trade Callahan to Phoenix for Runblad, Samulsson, and a pick (1st if Callahan resigns OR the Yotes make it to the conference finals / 2nd if neither happens).
- Trade Boyle for a 1st or a 2nd and a "B" level prospect.

Hold on to MDZ until the draft unless a solid offer comes before then and keep Stralman for the rest of the season. See if you can trade his rights for a 3rd or 4th at the draft.

If the Rangers are out of it come the deadline, Id like to see:

- Same deals/trades as above.
- Trade Stralman for a first.
- See what's out there for MDZ. Trade him at draft if nothing good at the deadline.

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01-15-2014, 11:26 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
If the Rangers are in a playoff position come the deadline I would like to see these moves (for players currently on the Rangers roster):

- Resign Girardi 4 years $6/year.
- Trade Callahan to Phoenix for Runblad, Samulsson, and a pick (1st if Callahan resigns OR the Yotes make it to the conference finals / 2nd if neither happens).
- Trade Boyle for a 1st or a 2nd and a "B" level prospect.

Hold on to MDZ until the draft unless a solid offer comes before then and keep Stralman for the rest of the season. See if you can trade his rights for a 3rd or 4th at the draft.

If the Rangers are out of it come the deadline, Id like to see:

- Same deals/trades as above.
- Trade Stralman for a first.
- See what's out there for MDZ. Trade him at draft if nothing good at the deadline.
The bolded won't happen. If Girardi would take a 4 year deal, he'd already be signed. He has been underpaid for years. This is his 1 chance to cash in. He and his agent know that he'll get 7 years from another team if not from the Rangers.

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Old
01-15-2014, 11:40 AM
  #100
DelZottoHitTheNetJK
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
That's entirely irrelevant, but nice try. As if somehow Stepan would have stopped scoring over the next 48 games. Even if he reverts to his .6 PPG pace he established in his sophomore season, he still finishes the year with a better total that Setoguchi's one good season.

Your "argument" is that you can somehow see that Stepan is "regressing" -- which of course you championed at this time last season as well before he went on to be the leading scorer on the team -- while nobody else can, and yet you blindly ignore the fact that Setoguchi has never even remotely come close to those point totals again in 4 years.

Facts vs opinion and projection. Now I'm sure you'll counter with some bogus argument about Setoguchi not being given favorable minutes, and Stepan gets to play with Nash and Kreider. All while ignoring the fact that Setoguchi's best year came from playing on a line with one of the best playmaking centers in the NHL
Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoHitTheNetJK View Post
I've said about 10 times in this thread I'm not expecting him to score 30 goals.

And that notion has been busted apart so many times. Jagr was traded twice, I guess he's terrible too
Reading comprehension on this board is just non-existent. This whole thing somehow became Stepan vs Setoguchi. I wouldn't make that deal straight up, ever. We're going to have to give up something of value to get Byfuglien if anyone actually read the original proposal. I threw in Setoguchi to offset the loss of production from Stepan.

Let's also not forget there's this thing called free agency that we can use to replace Stepan

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