HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

Sather must decide: Is dealing Girardi best for Rangers?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-15-2014, 03:32 PM
  #851
True Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,006
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
But you still have to replace him. If one is proposing trades where prospects and picks or even forwards are coming back it will be hilarious to read that writer's posts after the trade and we have lost a linchpin of our D.
Not if your goal is not the short term. If you trade him, you are not looking to see how far you an go during the 2014 playoffs.

True Blue is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 03:51 PM
  #852
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,779
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Not if your goal is not the short term. If you trade him, you are not looking to see how far you an go during the 2014 playoffs.
Careful, you're coming awfully close to having a long-term vision.

__________________
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 03:56 PM
  #853
Cake or Death
.
 
Cake or Death's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 2,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Nothing confirmed, but the "educated guess" is something around 7 years at $6M per.
Yeah, $6M per is the number a few writers have tossed around.

Cake or Death is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 04:02 PM
  #854
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Not if your goal is not the short term. If you trade him, you are not looking to see how far you an go during the 2014 playoffs.
But in 15'? 16'? 17'?

Ola is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 04:39 PM
  #855
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,265
vCash: 500
Lower end 1st rounders are often b level prospects with more years of development away. If I'm trading Girardi the main piece coming back is a young player that's already showing a lot of promise not a draft pick unless it's at least within the top 20 in a good year.

Chicago fans on the trading page bringing up Girardi today for instance for their 1st and Jeremy Morin. I'd be more interested in Clendening +. Morin's from Kreider's draft and has had a hard time sticking. Their first might be the last guy taken in the draft this year. You're not really getting any kind of guaranteed performer for giving Chicago a better shot at winning a Cup with Morin and the 1st.

Anyway I wouldn't be adverse if I were moving Girardi from trading him to the Pens either even hating them as much as I do. The Pens have a lot of interesting young players that might be had--Beau Bennett (though blood clots can be a serious thing)--I think Maatta and Pouliot might be off the table but maybe work something around any of Despres +, Dumoulin +, Harrington +. If Pittsburgh started taking hits to their d-corps going down to the deadline--maybe the Rangers could land a Pouliot.

eco's bones is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 04:54 PM
  #856
Mikos87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,686
vCash: 500
The formula for a core according to Pierre McGuire is the following:

2 Top Tier Centers
1 Power Forward
1 Shutdown Forward
1 Top offensive Defenseman
1 Top Defensive Defenseman
1 Top tier goalie.

The Rangers have 5 of the 7. Cally and G represent that. You can argue Staal and McD for both roles and be justified, but G being a righty makes one dominant shut down pair.

The Rangers need an offensive defenseman, and another center. Richards and Brassard platooning 2nd and 3rd line production is leading to some offense, but the team will need another top center.

If you have those components in this league eating top minutes every night, you are a playoff team.

Mikos87 is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 05:52 PM
  #857
CharlieCharleschuk
Registered User
 
CharlieCharleschuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Careful, you're coming awfully close to having a long-term vision.
I'm pretty sure that "having long-term vision" doesn't guarantee that any players coming back will develop into what you already have, never mind hoping that they'll be better.

And then there's the cap space issue. If you're concerned about Girardi's potential cap hit, what's going to replace it? Surely it gets spent on something else that amuses and disgusts over the next few seasons until the young prospect can get a chance to prove himself.

You know, in the 20+ years I've been watching this team, I've seen only a handful of really talented kids come up and develop in the system and stay with the team. I'm a bird-in-the-hand kind of guy after watching prospect after prospect flame out. Ryan McDonagh is not a typical outcome.

CharlieCharleschuk is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 05:59 PM
  #858
Brian Boyle
portnor, pls
 
Brian Boyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,612
vCash: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
The formula for a core according to Pierre McGuire is the following:

2 Top Tier Centers
1 Power Forward
1 Shutdown Forward
1 Top offensive Defenseman
1 Top Defensive Defenseman
1 Top tier goalie.
That's a fun little chart, but how many Stanley Cup Champs since the salary cap can say they've truly had that?

__________________
Rangers Unlimited
Hockey Graphs
Brian Boyle is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:02 PM
  #859
dethomas07
Registered User
 
dethomas07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New York, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
That's a fun little chart, but how many Stanley Cup Champs since the salary cap can say they've truly had that?
every team thats won..

dethomas07 is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:03 PM
  #860
slugox
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
I'm pretty sure that "having long-term vision" doesn't guarantee that any players coming back will develop into what you already have, never mind hoping that they'll be better.

And then there's the cap space issue. If you're concerned about Girardi's potential cap hit, what's going to replace it? Surely it gets spent on something else that amuses and disgusts over the next few seasons until the young prospect can get a chance to prove himself.

You know, in the 20+ years I've been watching this team, I've seen only a handful of really talented kids come up and develop in the system and stay with the team. I'm a bird-in-the-hand kind of guy after watching prospect after prospect flame out. Ryan McDonagh is not a typical outcome.
I'm a big fan of this. When you already have the player that you hope the prospect you're chasing turns into, just resign the player. Players get older and retire. It happens.

slugox is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:06 PM
  #861
Brian Boyle
portnor, pls
 
Brian Boyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,612
vCash: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
every team thats won..
Really?

Please list:
Chicago's 2 Top Tier Centers
LA's 2 Top Tier Centers/Shutdown Forward (Mike Richards can only be one)
Pittsburgh's Power Forward
Anaheim's 2 Top Tier Centers
Carolina's Top Offensive Defenseman

Thanks in advance.

Brian Boyle is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:16 PM
  #862
Ail
k.
 
Ail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mysidia
Country: United States
Posts: 15,933
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
The formula for a core according to Pierre McGuire is the following:

2 Top Tier Centers
1 Power Forward
1 Shutdown Forward
1 Top offensive Defenseman
1 Top Defensive Defenseman
1 Top tier goalie.
That list means absolutely nothing.

__________________
Ail is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:25 PM
  #863
dethomas07
Registered User
 
dethomas07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New York, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Really?

Please list:
Chicago's 2 Top Tier Centers
LA's 2 Top Tier Centers/Shutdown Forward (Mike Richards can only be one)
Pittsburgh's Power Forward
Anaheim's 2 Top Tier Centers
Carolina's Top Offensive Defenseman

Thanks in advance.
CHi-SHarp and Toews
La-Mike Richards and Kopitar carter and brown can be their pfwds and shut down, both are excellent there
Pit-I actually thought Neil was on the squad, but i can classify Malkin as P FWD, i guess its how you preceive a player.. i view a pfwd as a player that powers himself to the dirt areas or hard to the net to score.. Malkin can fit that profile..

Ana-Andy Mcd was a 1c back then
Carolina-kaberle put up 44pts offensive dman

no problem for answering.. but every team that wins has a lot more then that i feel, its not exact but you need special players to win for sure..

dethomas07 is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:28 PM
  #864
Ail
k.
 
Ail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mysidia
Country: United States
Posts: 15,933
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
I'm pretty sure that "having long-term vision" doesn't guarantee that any players coming back will develop into what you already have, never mind hoping that they'll be better.

And then there's the cap space issue. If you're concerned about Girardi's potential cap hit, what's going to replace it? Surely it gets spent on something else that amuses and disgusts over the next few seasons until the young prospect can get a chance to prove himself.

You know, in the 20+ years I've been watching this team, I've seen only a handful of really talented kids come up and develop in the system and stay with the team. I'm a bird-in-the-hand kind of guy after watching prospect after prospect flame out. Ryan McDonagh is not a typical outcome.
So they should just ride every prospect or player they do develop right through 'til the bitter end because you're afraid they won't replace them with a younger player? That's ridiculous. You have to calculate risk on both sides of the argument. There is a huge risk with signing these two players to long-term, high dollar contracts. You have to know when to fold and when to go all in. Unless it is a franchise player like Lundqvist you have to cut ties before you end up with a declining player(s) who is overpaid.

The smart move for the future of this franchise is trading both of them. People keep talking about how hard it will be to replace Dan Girardi but also forget Dan Girardi was an undrafted FA. These players can be found, and if they don't replace him right away, who cares? This isn't about tomorrow, or next month. It's about the next 5 years or longer.

Ail is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:29 PM
  #865
Brian Boyle
portnor, pls
 
Brian Boyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,612
vCash: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
CHi-SHarp and Toews
La-Mike Richards and Kopitar
Pit-I actually thought Neil was on the squad, but i can classify Malkin as P FWD, i guess its how you preceive a player.. i view a pfwd as a player that powers himself to the dirt areas or hard to the net to score.. Malkin can fit that profile..

Ana-Andy Mcd was a 1c back then
Carolina-kaberle put up 44pts offensive dman

no problem for answering.. but every team that wins has a lot more then that i feel, its not exact but you need special players to win for sure..
Well if you loosen the requirements that much, then this current Ranger team has no problem meeting it.

2 Top Tier Centers - Richards and Stepan
1 Power Forward - Nash
1 Shutdown Forward - Callahan
1 Top offensive Defenseman - McDonagh
1 Top Defensive Defenseman - Girardi
1 Top tier goalie - Lundqvist/Talbot

We got our core guys.

edit: why is Sharp bolded? Is it because he hasn't played center regularly in forever?

Brian Boyle is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:36 PM
  #866
dethomas07
Registered User
 
dethomas07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New York, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Well if you loosen the requirements that much, then this current Ranger team has no problem meeting it.

2 Top Tier Centers - Richards and Stepan
1 Power Forward - Nash
1 Shutdown Forward - Callahan
1 Top offensive Defenseman - McDonagh
1 Top Defensive Defenseman - Girardi
1 Top tier goalie - Lundqvist/Talbot

We got our core guys.

edit: why is Sharp bolded? Is it because he hasn't played center regularly in forever?
yeah very loose requirements..hahah

you think we have what it takes?

nah just to highlight him, but yeah he prob hasnt played center as much since then..

dethomas07 is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 06:41 PM
  #867
Brian Boyle
portnor, pls
 
Brian Boyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,612
vCash: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
you think we have what it takes?
To win the Cup? Probably not, but not because of some arbitrary formula Pierre McGuire came up with.

Brian Boyle is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 07:04 PM
  #868
Mikos87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,686
vCash: 500
Uh oh looks like it's time to keep the responses simple eh?!

Look at the teams that are at the top of 5v5 goal differential year after year, and then look at the make up of their roster and see who fits where.

BOS, STL, LA, ANA, PIT, and SJ have it this year. Now go look at the standings.

Mikos87 is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 07:26 PM
  #869
CharlieCharleschuk
Registered User
 
CharlieCharleschuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
So they should just ride every prospect or player they do develop right through 'til the bitter end because you're afraid they won't replace them with a younger player? That's ridiculous. You have to calculate risk on both sides of the argument. There is a huge risk with signing these two players to long-term, high dollar contracts. You have to know when to fold and when to go all in. Unless it is a franchise player like Lundqvist you have to cut ties before you end up with a declining player(s) who is overpaid.

The smart move for the future of this franchise is trading both of them. People keep talking about how hard it will be to replace Dan Girardi but also forget Dan Girardi was an undrafted FA. These players can be found, and if they don't replace him right away, who cares? This isn't about tomorrow, or next month. It's about the next 5 years or longer.
Come on, let's pretend we're serious people and not start with the "ridiculous" comments, etc. There's no hard and fast rule to this, as you seem to imagine I think.

There are several factors to consider, which have been discussed at length and ad nauseum. So, judging by these factors, I believe it would be foolish to let Girardi go. I think he's competent, durable and eats tons of minutes. He's a guy who's good in the locker room. He gives it up for his team. The reason he's considered so highly around the league is because he's the dependable kind of guy most every coach wants on his team. We have this guy, there is no reason to let him go because we won't replace him.

To your comment that these guys "can be found" I say that if they are there, then that negates Girardi's value and you won't get anything for him in a trade (because anyone could just sign them). But the fact is that they are not there. That's why he's valuable to us and has a certain value to the rest of the league.

Callahan, on the other hand, has a significant risk in a long-term contract. He tends to get banged up and knocked out of the lineup. That's a characteristic that gets worse over the years. Additionally, there's the fact that we have a number of wingers who are stepping up now to take on his role, as we saw when he was most recently out. Therefore I agree with those who say that he could be moved for futures.

CharlieCharleschuk is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 10:02 PM
  #870
TBLightning24
SFY for President!
 
TBLightning24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: New York
Posts: 1,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
It'd take 6 or a 7 year deal to sign Callahan. Do you want a guy making upwards of 5 mill per year playing on a 3rd line? I don't.
I'm confused to how Cally is only a 3rd liner. He is currently playing on the top line now and has been excellent since being back.

He has been a top 3 goal scorer for this team over the last 3 seasons. He hit 29 Goals in 2010-11 season, and last season was on pace for 30 Goals again.

If Cally stays healthy he is going to score between 50 to 60 points in a season, yeah the word is "if" but in AV's system which is not required to sacrifice every part of the body blocking a shot will be beneficial for Cally since most of his injuries have occured from blocking shots. I've already seen a difference in his game adjusting to AV's system, where he is setting up more plays, and getting more scoring chances.

There are more pros to sign cally than cons. Injuries cannot be predicted, and if Cally stays on the ice, he is going to be a beast and make a major difference.

TBLightning24 is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 10:10 PM
  #871
Mint
Registered User
 
Mint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,662
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers1979 View Post
I'm confused to how Cally is only a 3rd liner. He is currently playing on the top line now and has been excellent since being back.

He has been a top 3 goal scorer for this team over the last 3 seasons. He hit 29 Goals in 2010-11 season, and last season was on pace for 30 Goals again.

If Cally stays healthy he is going to score between 50 to 60 points in a season, yeah the word is "if" but in AV's system which is not required to sacrifice every part of the body blocking a shot will be beneficial for Cally since most of his injuries have occured from blocking shots. I've already seen a difference in his game adjusting to AV's system, where he is setting up more plays, and getting more scoring chances.

There are more pros to sign cally than cons. Injuries cannot be predicted, and if Cally stays on the ice, he is going to be a beast and make a major difference.
Exactly, I'm not sure why the complete 180 on Callahan. 1 or 2 seasons ago, it would've been sacrilege to suggest he's a 3rd line player by Rangers fan. Now every other Ranger fan is suggesting he's a 3rd liner or that the Rangers shouldn't bother offering him a contract.

Mint is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 10:14 PM
  #872
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 18,580
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
Exactly, I'm not sure why the complete 180 on Callahan. 1 or 2 seasons ago, it would've been sacrilege to suggest he's a 3rd line player by Rangers fan. Now every other Ranger fan is suggesting he's a 3rd liner or that the Rangers shouldn't bother offering him a contract.
Because this board changes opinions almost weekly.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 10:15 PM
  #873
darko
Registered User
 
darko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Country: Australia
Posts: 29,964
vCash: 500
Playing on 3rd line doesn't mean he's a 3rd liner. With Nash and MZA there Cally would play on the 3rd line.

darko is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 10:25 PM
  #874
3rdlineglory
Registered User
 
3rdlineglory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Mahopac, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 413
vCash: 500
I don't understand why it's the worst thing possible to resign Girardi, Callahan, Boyle, etc (even at their open market values.) The cap is going up and Richards will most likely get bought out. Let's say in 3-4 years, management determines that the window is closed and it's time to move on (I know, highly unlikely). The cap will be even higher at that point and I highly doubt any of them will have declined so much at that point that they are "untradeable." Also, signed players are more valuable than rentals. But yeah let's trade guys that give it their all virtually every night because they can get "too expensive" and promptly give Paul freakin Stastny whatever he wants in the offseason .

3rdlineglory is offline  
Old
01-15-2014, 10:26 PM
  #875
Mint
Registered User
 
Mint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,662
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Because this board changes opinions almost weekly.
Talbot is better than Lundqvist.

Derek Stepan Sucks.

Daniel Carcillo went from useless goon to a player who brings grit, intensity and physicality every night.

Mint is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.